I've had the opportunity to ski in a few resorts in the US and once in 3 Valleys. One noticeable difference I've observed is the lack of ungroomed pistes in Europe. In the US, it's common to find a variety of ungroomed slopes, including double blacks, some blues, and blacks. Runs with moguls, avalanche control, and within the resort boundaries (not backcountry).
I'm planning my next ski trip for the upcoming season, and I'm looking for a European ski resort, preferably close to Milan, that offers "double blacks" and intermediate/advanced ungroomed runs. Do any of you have recommendations for resorts in this area or elsewhere in Europe that fit this description?
I know that Zermatt have some freeride trails, but I'm unsure if they are extreme chutes or more manageable pistes. Any insights on this would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks in advance for your suggestions and advice
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@satibr, Many areas in the alps have ski routes / itineraries which are probably what you are after. the problem is that the definition of these is not consistent and varies from area to area. They can also cover what is basically a track linking pistes, skiable by anyone who can stand up on skis!. For Zermatt you are better off asking on the Zermatt thread folk there would be able to answer better but my understanding is that the itineraries there (and in Verbier) are along the lines you want. The place I know best, The Arlberg, does indeed have ski routes similar to what you are after. These routes vary between pretty easy to challenging (graded either red or black). They are generally ungroomed though a few are partly groomed. Some are well known and popular, Madloch for example. There is some criticism of the concept as the routes can be unclear, they are marked by a line of poles. The route is only secured along the line of those poles not further away (no concept here of "inbounds") so potentially if you didnt know the area you could wander off the route into potentially dangerous territory, especially in poor visibility.
As an example an image of a well known (and fairly easy) route above St Anton , Schindlerkar, you can see the line of marker poles. The mass of lines visible on the facing slope are above the official route not on it.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Tignes has a number of Naturide runs. These are defined as secured ungroomed pistes, There are some very black ones.
Many resorts in Europe have a few ski-routes which you can compare with inbound ungroomed slopes in the US. These will open if snow and avalanche conditions allow it, but will get tracked very quickly end usually end up in mogul galore.
Apart from that there is no such thing as inbound and outbound terrain in Europe. Everything outside the poles that indicate the piste is considered off-piste (outbound terrain), not patrolled and you are responsible for your own safety and should take (avalanche) safety in consideration.
True off-piste resort > La Grave (France) 1 lift up, 0 pistes down, massive terrain. Be sure to book a guide
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Les Quatre Vallées (Verbier) and Ski Arlberg (St.Anton/Lech) are among the best for this.
Ski Arlberg has 300 km of groomed pistes, and 200 km of ungroomed marked routes. Additionally it gets a lot of snow.
Les Quatre Vallées is closest to Milan.
After all it is free
After all it is free
@Langerzug, are the ungroomed marked routes in the Arlberg avalanche controlled?
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@sugarmoma666, yes.
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Most black pistes and some reds in Les Arcs are "natur" pistes, that is never bashed. They are usually steep mogul fields, too steep for piste machines.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@sugarmoma666, its not that easy a question to answer. In theory yes but the official line is that the ski routes are controlled and patrolled along the line of red marker poles delineating the run (see the image above). That's fine for a run like Langerzug which despite being very steep at the start (supposedly the "steepest" run in Austria) is basically a prepared piste ending up as a track through the woods but for others not so clear. To give an example, the Mattun bowl. There are two official runs, Mattun from the top of Kapall and Mattunjoch from near the top of Schindlerkar both shown by lines of marker poles. However these lines are well nigh indistinguishable from the rest of the terrain and following the poles can feel pretty arbitrary when the adjacent areas are the same and often better or easier. Is the spot 25 m from a pole still controlled? On a busy day the entire bowl is full of skiers few following the "official" line. Personally I would be cautious on some of the runs if the Avi level is 3 or above.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Are there ski routes/itineraries in the dolomiti ski area? Or in other big italian resorts
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
There are a few areas in the Portes du Soleil. Off the top of my head both blue and red areas off the top of the Fornet chair, a black off the Lac-Intrets/Grandes Combes chairs in the Avoriaz area, and of course the Swiss Wall on the Les Crosets side. Probably more that just aren't coming to mind right now - but as someone else said they get tracked out very quickly after a snow fall.
In Europe hiring a guide and going properly off piste is they way forward.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
munich_irish wrote:
@sugarmoma666, its not that easy a question to answer. In theory yes but the official line is that the ski routes are controlled and patrolled along the line of red marker poles delineating the run (see the image above). That's fine for a run like Langerzug which despite being very steep at the start (supposedly the "steepest" run in Austria) is basically a prepared piste ending up as a track through the woods but for others not so clear. To give an example, the Mattun bowl. There are two official runs, Mattun from the top of Kapall and Mattunjoch from near the top of Schindlerkar both shown by lines of marker poles. However these lines are well nigh indistinguishable from the rest of the terrain and following the poles can feel pretty arbitrary when the adjacent areas are the same and often better or easier. Is the spot 25 m from a pole still controlled? On a busy day the entire bowl is full of skiers few following the "official" line. Personally I would be cautious on some of the runs if the Avi level is 3 or above.
It really is quite easy: just stay within 25 meters (or so) of the poles and you're fine. No need to make things more complicated...
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@satibr, Far less in Italy in general. Major issue in the Dolomites is the lack of natural snow, making off-piste less likely anyway.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Alagna?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
under a new name wrote:
Alagna?
Plenty of lift-served off-piste, but I can't think of many ungroomed runs in the sense that the OP is asking. Certainly, I'd not ski off-piste there without a guide and full avvy kit, if that's the criterion.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I forgot that La Rosiere opened up the Mont Vaislan free ride area and there is a largish free ride area in Tignes. I think this corresponds to the US model of "inbounds offpiste" or whatever the American word for piste is.
@JayRo, I really should pay more attention. Is anywhere in Europe officially patrolled like that?
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
johnE wrote:
I forgot that La Rosiere opened up the Mont Vaislan free ride area and there is a largish free ride area in Tignes. I think this corresponds to the US model of "inbounds offpiste" or whatever the American word for piste is.
Are you sure? Many resorts advertise their “freeride areas”, and I even have a “official” map for freeride areas in Stubai, but they are not controlled and it explicitly says on the map that you need to take your own precautions.
After you've got your confidence on them, go out with an off-piste guide.
After all it is free
After all it is free
@satibr, I have to admit I'm not quite sure what you are after.
F'rinstance, I suggested Alagna, which easily offers the bowl itself, or the couloirs into Gressoney off Punta Indren. I don't think I've ever felt the need for a guide.
Equally, although not so close to Milan, I have been told that around Chamonix, if the lifts open the ski patrol feel it's "safe" - and you +/- will get rescued, in the main. I have not confirmed this directly.
But none of this is really similar to e.g. inbounds in Alta.
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@satibr, I have to admit I'm not quite sure what you are after.
Hi, thanks for replying.
I don't like skiing groomers very much, but I'm not an expert skier. I can handle most major black and double black slopes (excluding the extremely challenging ones, like Corbets, for example), but my skiing might not necessarily look very good.
I enjoy exploring ungroomed terrain, tackling moguls, and being in areas that feel less controlled, all while being in a "safe" environment, within the boundaries of the resort (or very close to pistes so that I can see where I'm going). This way, I can ski independently without needing to hire a guide.
I'll be traveling with 3 other people who are total beginners, and our plan is to start the trip in Milan and travel through Italy. That's why I'm searching for a large resort; it will offer plenty of options for my beginner companions, while also allowing me to do the type of skiing I enjoy the most.
Additionally, we don't want to travel too far from Milan (or Venice) due to our tight schedule.
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satibr wrote:
I don't like skiing groomers very much
Don't take this personally/the wrong way but that is a very odd thing to say. I love and want to ski off piste as much as possible but I also enjoy piste skiing.
satibr wrote:
but I'm not an expert skier. I can handle most major black and double black slopes (excluding the extremely challenging ones, like Corbets, for example), but my skiing might not necessarily look very good.
Skiing shouldn't be about the colour code they are given or skiing the headline pistes. Colour coding differs from resort to resort, and conditions vary day to day anyhow. Ultimately it's about enjoying what you enjoy and finding your own personal challenges.
satibr wrote:
I enjoy exploring ungroomed terrain, tackling moguls, and being in areas that feel less controlled, all while being in a "safe" environment, within the boundaries of the resort (or very close to pistes so that I can see where I'm going). This way, I can ski independently without needing to hire a guide.
Sounds like you are hankering for proper off piste to be honest but just don't have the money, knowledge, friends to really get into it.
satibr wrote:
I'll be traveling with 3 other people who are total beginners, and our plan is to start the trip in Milan and travel through Italy. That's why I'm searching for a large resort; it will offer plenty of options for my beginner companions, while also allowing me to do the type of skiing I enjoy the most.
Beginners don't need a large resort - they just need a good tutor. Are they taking lessons? Unfortunately for you that means solo, which can be nice but limiting.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@satibr, someone might disagree but I dont think you will find what you are looking for in Italy, both Lech & Ischgl in Austria would work but no good from Milan. The Dolomities are really about piste skiing, fantastic scenery & atmosphere, ungroomed skiing of whatever type less so. Monte Rosa (Alagna) might work for you but probably limited for your friends. Perhaps Val d'Aoste (Pila, Courmayeur, La Thuile) but I suspect you would prefer one spot. Cervinia might be a worthwhile compromise, assuming the weather is OK you can ski Zermatt too. Not much idea about Madonna di' Campiglio but it is a good sized area but I would imagine a fair journey from Milan. Verbier in Switzerland, not much further than Zermatt from Milan on the train, is worth a look.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@satibr,
You haven't mentioned what dates - this can make a huge difference regard resort recommendations.
Also, how will you be travelling?
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Layne wrote:
satibr wrote:
I don't like skiing groomers very much
Don't take this personally/the wrong way but that is a very odd thing to say. I love and want to ski off piste as much as possible but I also enjoy piste skiing.
satibr wrote:
but I'm not an expert skier. I can handle most major black and double black slopes (excluding the extremely challenging ones, like Corbets, for example), but my skiing might not necessarily look very good.
Skiing shouldn't be about the colour code they are given or skiing the headline pistes. Colour coding differs from resort to resort, and conditions vary day to day anyhow. Ultimately it's about enjoying what you enjoy and finding your own personal challenges.
satibr wrote:
I enjoy exploring ungroomed terrain, tackling moguls, and being in areas that feel less controlled, all while being in a "safe" environment, within the boundaries of the resort (or very close to pistes so that I can see where I'm going). This way, I can ski independently without needing to hire a guide.
Sounds like you are hankering for proper off piste to be honest but just don't have the money, knowledge, friends to really get into it.
satibr wrote:
I'll be traveling with 3 other people who are total beginners, and our plan is to start the trip in Milan and travel through Italy. That's why I'm searching for a large resort; it will offer plenty of options for my beginner companions, while also allowing me to do the type of skiing I enjoy the most.
Beginners don't need a large resort - they just need a good tutor. Are they taking lessons? Unfortunately for you that means solo, which can be nice but limiting.
All wise words, add in the fact that our off piste is very rarely new powder unless your very lucky, then the groomed terrain might be ice , and more difficult than you imagine, so a ski area with plenty of varying slopes may suit you well,
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
I would be very cautious of what is and isn't avalanche controlled. There appears to be no set criteria so just because something is marked on the piste map or named as a run doesn't mean it's controlled. This article is a few years old but highlighted the issues https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/ski/articles/what-is-an-off-piste-itinerary-ski-run/
Honestly it sounds as what you are looking for regarding controlled off piste is much better served by a n American resort. I'm Europe you are either going to be stuck predominantly on pistes, which you say you don't enjoy, or going to have to accept for off piste you are going to need avy equipment, knowledge, and possibly a guide.
Quote:
Sounds like you are hankering for proper off piste to be honest but just don't have the money, knowledge, friends to really get into it.
No, sounds like he just enjoys the n American set up. Can't say I blame him, it's a lot of fun being able to just jump off piste into anything that looks good without having to even carry avy gear let alone hire a guide.
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Don't take this personally/the wrong way but that is a very odd thing to say. I love and want to ski off piste as much as possible but I also enjoy piste skiing.
Meh, some people don't like trees, some don't like steeps. Don't see why someone has to like groomers. I would say they are my least favourite thing to ski.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Quote:
Don't take this personally/the wrong way but that is a very odd thing to say. I love and want to ski off piste as much as possible but I also enjoy piste skiing.
I supposed what I've said could be interpreted that way. Correcting myself, I do enjoy skiing groomers, and I know that, in any ski resort, that's what I'll be skiing most of the time, but I wouldn't like going to a resort that only has that.
Quote:
Skiing shouldn't be about the colour code they are given or skiing the headline pistes. Colour coding differs from resort to resort, and conditions vary day to day anyhow. Ultimately it's about enjoying what you enjoy and finding your own personal challenges.
It's not, I only said that so you could try to guess the kind of stuff I'm in to.
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Sounds like you are hankering for proper off piste to be honest but just don't have the money, knowledge, friends to really get into it.
You are absolutely correct, my friends won't be able to join me and I prefer to spend the money that could be used for a guide in other stuff in my trip. I'm from Brazil, we don't have any skiing in here, the fact that I have friends who can accompany me on the trip is already great for me, even though it means that I'll be skiing most of the time alone.
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Beginners don't need a large resort - they just need a good tutor. Are they taking lessons? Unfortunately for you that means solo, which can be nice but limiting.
They don't need a large resort indeed, but also only beeing able to take one lift and doing one or two runs is kind of sad for them. I'll be teaching them, woudn't say I'm the best tutor, but I've teached friends before and it all went well.
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@satibr, someone might disagree but I dont think you will find what you are looking for in Italy, both Lech & Ischgl in Austria would work but no good from Milan. The Dolomities are really about piste skiing, fantastic scenery & atmosphere, ungroomed skiing of whatever type less so. Monte Rosa (Alagna) might work for you but probably limited for your friends. Perhaps Val d'Aoste (Pila, Courmayeur, La Thuile) but I suspect you would prefer one spot. Cervinia might be a worthwhile compromise, assuming the weather is OK you can ski Zermatt too. Not much idea about Madonna di' Campiglio but it is a good sized area but I would imagine a fair journey from Milan. Verbier in Switzerland, not much further than Zermatt from Milan on the train, is worth a look.
Thanks for replying, I'll take a look into these ones.
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@satibr,
You haven't mentioned what dates - this can make a huge difference regard resort recommendations.
Also, how will you be travelling?
We have two dates in mind, either mid march or mid febuary, wating for vacation confirmation only.
Quote:
All wise words, add in the fact that our off piste is very rarely new powder unless your very lucky, then the groomed terrain might be ice , and more difficult than you imagine, so a ski area with plenty of varying slopes may suit you well,
Yeah, powder is great, but I do understand that it might not happen, and that fine by me, also like it when it's all full of moguls and no powder. And yes, the main point is having a variety of available slopes, not only groomers, it doesn't have to be a lot, just some.
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Poster: A snowHead
boarder2020 wrote:
I would be very cautious of what is and isn't avalanche controlled. There appears to be no set criteria so just because something is marked on the piste map or named as a run doesn't mean it's controlled. This article is a few years old but highlighted the issues https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/ski/articles/what-is-an-off-piste-itinerary-ski-run/
Honestly it sounds as what you are looking for regarding controlled off piste is much better served by a n American resort. I'm Europe you are either going to be stuck predominantly on pistes, which you say you don't enjoy, or going to have to accept for off piste you are going to need avy equipment, knowledge, and possibly a guide.
Quote:
Sounds like you are hankering for proper off piste to be honest but just don't have the money, knowledge, friends to really get into it.
No, sounds like he just enjoys the n American set up. Can't say I blame him, it's a lot of fun being able to just jump off piste into anything that looks good without having to even carry avy gear let alone hire a guide.
Quote:
Don't take this personally/the wrong way but that is a very odd thing to say. I love and want to ski off piste as much as possible but I also enjoy piste skiing.
Meh, some people don't like trees, some don't like steeps. Don't see why someone has to like groomers. I would say they are my least favourite thing to ski.
Yeah, I actually didn't know that this was particular to american resorts set up, I'm just finding that out.
Last winter I was skiing in Meribel, and there is a slope called Bartavelle, it snowed two days, at the end of the second day the slope was exactly like what I've wanted it to be, some moguls, good snow, kind of steep, fast lift, skied it until lift closure. Next day I went there as soon as the lifts opened and they had groomed it, it made me so sad hahah.
Maybe, so far from what I've seen, only the yellow runs in Zermatt seem to fit the description of what I have in mind (that is close to Milan), the bad part is that Zermatt doesn't seem to have a lot of stuff for complete new beginners, I know that in a couple of days they will be a lot better and more confident, but the layout of the mountain do feel a little bit intimidating for a complete beginner. Maybe going to Cervinia and hoping that the passage to Zermatt is open might be a decent midtem between having them happy and safe and also having something different for me to do
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@satibr, most likely you will find the skiing in Zermatt very boring. Yes, there are some itineraries, but by far most of the skiing is pistes, and actually mostly of the not so excellent type. Also, Zermatt does not get much snow, so pistes will be hard most of the time. Zermatt itself is a very nice village, Matterhorn and the views are spectacular.
From Milan, Les Quatres Vallées (Verbier, Nendaz) is not much further than Zermatt, and much more suited to your wishes, and to the beginners in your group.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
If you're not a fan of groomed runs then, in my limited experience, Italy probably isn't the best option. The Italian resorts I've skied seem to regularly be smooth and fast.
If choppier runs is your thing then the later date may be better, just a little more chance of getting cut up.
I supposed what I've said could be interpreted that way. Correcting myself, I do enjoy skiing groomers
That's to be an 180 degree shift but anyway...
satibr wrote:
I know that, in any ski resort, that's what I'll be skiing most of the time, but I wouldn't like going to a resort that only has that.
No resort "only has that".
satibr wrote:
They don't need a large resort indeed, but also only beeing able to take one lift and doing one or two runs is kind of sad for them.
That is an extreme you've taken there. The point was there are medium and small resorts that are still interesting but adequate for beginners - and the lift pass and often the accommodation is cheaper.
satibr wrote:
I'll be teaching them, woudn't say I'm the best tutor, but I've teached friends before and it all went well.
That sounds like a recipe for disaster.
satibr wrote:
We have two dates in mind, either mid march or mid febuary, wating for vacation confirmation only.
Mid-March massively preferable. Mid-Feb is peak season and so busy/expensive.
satibr wrote:
Yeah, powder is great, but I do understand that it might not happen, and that fine by me, also like it when it's all full of moguls and no powder. And yes, the main point is having a variety of available slopes, not only groomers, it doesn't have to be a lot, just some.
I hope this clarifies rather than confuses but "groomer" is an American term. Many steep "pistes" in Europe are not groomed" and become moguled. Or become moguled naturally during the course of the day. I don't believe you will have a problem finding moguls or variety of pistes.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
boarder2020 wrote:
No, sounds like he just enjoys the n American set up. Can't say I blame him, it's a lot of fun being able to just jump off piste into anything that looks good without having to even carry avy gear let alone hire a guide.
I think too much is made of that. Avy gear is not a huge encumbrance and you can do plenty of stuff without a guide. I've certainly only been with a guide for a handful of days over 30-odd years of skiing.
boarder2020 wrote:
Meh, some people don't like trees, some don't like steeps. Don't see why someone has to like groomers. I would say they are my least favourite thing to ski.
Well ultimately there are only groomed or ungroomed slopes. Whether they are steep or tree lined is secondary. Everybody that I know learnt on groomed pistes so if you didn't enjoy it you wouldn't do anything else.
The Europe v NA way of doing stuff I think is a tad overplayed at times.
Caveat: Never been to NA so could be talking bollox.
I think too much is made of that. Avy gear is not a huge encumbrance and you can do plenty of stuff without a guide. I've certainly only been with a guide for a handful of days over 30-odd years of skiing.
Initial cost of avy gear is definitely a barrier for entry. Then if you are not going to hire a guide you need to get educated in some way, so likely an avy course which again is an expense and if you don't live in the mountains potentially going to eat into your limited ski time.
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Everybody that I know learnt on groomed pistes so if you didn't enjoy it you wouldn't do anything else.
I really enjoyed groomers at the time. Then as I experienced more types of off-piste terrain and touring I found I enjoyed those things more. I don't think that's an unusual pathway. I still enjoy a good groomer, I just would find a week of predominantly piste skiing fairly boring.
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The Europe v NA way of doing stuff I think is a tad overplayed at times.
I've snowboarded in both. For me it's a huge difference. N America turn up at bottom lift solo and with no gear, having no need to check avy reports or dig pits. Just ride wherever looks good without having to think about safety. On days when outside the resort is considerable/high risk I'm riding couloirs, big alpine bowls etc. Just completely focused on the snowboarding and having a good time. (My first season in Canada I had zero avy knowledge or equipment, yet probably spent 90% of my time off piste skiing everything imaginable -trees, chutes, bowls, steeps etc. I just don't envision anything close to that would have been possible in Europe.)
Like I say I like out of bounds off-piste and touring too. But it's a very different experience.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Layne wrote:
Caveat: Never been to NA so could be talking bollox.
Hate to be harsh. But you are.
@boarder2020 is spot on.
boarder2020 wrote:
N America turn up at bottom lift solo and with no gear, having no need to check avy reports or dig pits. Just ride wherever looks good without having to think about safety. On days when outside the resort is considerable/high risk I'm riding couloirs, big alpine bowls etc. Just completely focused on the snowboarding and having a good time. (My first season in Canada I had zero avy knowledge or equipment, yet probably spent 90% of my time off piste skiing everything imaginable -trees, chutes, bowls, steeps etc. I just don't envision anything close to that would have been possible in Europe.)
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I've snowboarded in both. For me it's a huge difference.
Even more so for relatively inexperienced skiers who don’t live in the mountains or ski 50 or more days a season. (Note that I use “days” instead of weeks. When you live in snow country, you don’t just ski “a few weeks” during your holiday. You ski any days you’re free!) For “casual skiers” who don’t have their own off-piste companion, nor the time and opportunity to cultivate such, not having to worry about avi safety is indeed liberating!
After all it is free
After all it is free
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That sounds like a recipe for disaster.
Disagree, but okay. It may not be the best way to start, but it is way better than nothing. Me and most of the people I know learned how to ski with other friends (or even solo). If you know all the basics and are willing to spend a couple of hours on the magic carpet teaching them, it shouldn't be a problem. It is a disaster for people who take total beginners to pistes that they shoudn't be in.
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I really enjoyed groomers at the time. Then as I experienced more types of off-piste terrain and touring I found I enjoyed those things more. I don't think that's an unusual pathway. I still enjoy a good groomer, I just would find a week of predominantly piste skiing fairly boring.
Yeah, that's the point. Groomers are fun, but when you consider all the possibilities, other terrain seems to be far more appealing, at least for me. And I don't even think you need that much experience to appreciate other stuff, just trying out and having a preference for what seems more fun.
@boarder2020
I agree with everything you've said. Do you know of any resorts in Europe that resemble that NA experience?
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Quote:
For “casual skiers” who don’t have their own off-piste companion, nor the time and opportunity to cultivate such, not having to worry about avi safety is indeed liberating!
Exactly, that is the reality that I fit in and have to accept. For now, avy training, gear or even having a partner to ski in this circumstances is not posible. Just want to be able to ski these kind of challenging terrain while feeling "safe".
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@satibr, you can join off piste groups. Most ski schools now do a freeride group not so expensive.
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