 Poster: A snowHead
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Sure somebody here will know the answer. Asking for a friend and all assistance gratefully received.
An individual has been recruited to act as a live-in tutor for the child of a wealthy couple based in Britain. They spend three months of the year in Paris and will take their tutor with them.
So long as the tutor is employed by the couple, it is clear they are entitled to work for three months a year under the exemption for "Personal service workers and domestic workers working in France during their private employers’ stay in the country."
However, that doesn't half wreck the poor tutor's own ski holiday plans as their Schengen 90 days will all have been spent in Paris and the rest of the ski season will be within the plus-or-minus three months part.
Any chance of obtaining a work permit, or some such, in order not to wreck the tutor's own plans for a skiing holiday?
Thanks!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@James the Last, presumably a visa could be applied for? Although that might be a bit €€
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I think I'd be negotiating time out of my Parisian obligations or healthy compensation for my loss of Schengen days or asking that they obtain me a visa.
I've certainly considered that if my employer wanted to send me to somewhere in the EU on an extended project I'd be asking for appropriate compesation for my loss of Schengen amenity or a proper visa.
Of course for the private tutor and indeed myself it might mean that we are less employable ultimately than those with a right to work in the EU. Joys of Brexit.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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What 3 months are they going to be in Paris? As it is 90 days in 180 with a rolling horizon if the time in Paris was in the summer or autumn then it may not (fully) impact the ski season.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Working visa would require the employer to have a french registered business and pay french taxes.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Do the potential employers not ski?
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@James the Last,
Ski somewhere non Schengen.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@under a new name, depends if they end up with some tax liabilities/ can be bothered.
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@Nadenoodlee, yeah, brexit joys!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
Ski somewhere non Schengen
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Would the family not like to decamp to Vail for a few weeks and take the tutor with them?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| rjs wrote: |
| Do the potential employers not ski? |
Or have their own lodge!
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[quote="rjs"]Do the potential employers not ski?[/quote
Yes they do, but it's going to be work rather than play for the skiing week.
3 months in Paris is timed such that with the 180 days rolling the entirety of the ski season is ruled out. I think any skiing trip is going to have to be to Andorra!
@Nadenoodlee I've had a good look at the available visas, but none seems to fit the bill exactly.
A member of household staff is entitled to work for 90 days in France per annum without requiring a visa. That's easy. What it doesn't solve is other Schengen visits in the +/- three months.
It might be possible to obtain a working visa on the basis that one is 'Posted to provide services in France' https://france-visas.gouv.fr/en/web/france-visas/salaried-employment but I've no idea whether this is likely to be issued, and I don't know what the interaction with Schengen holidays is - as in, are you allowed further Schengen holidays on top of the 90 out of 180 days already spent in the zone. And in any case, it might be difficult to argue that the visa is for working more than 90 days in France, when it is clearly for working no more than 90 days - it's the wanted holidays that would take it over 90!
Do the French issue these work permits at all? Are they likely to be granted, or impossible?
Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much  on Fri 25-08-23 9:15; edited 1 time in total
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You know it makes sense.
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Surely the simplest answer is to negotiate dates with the employer e.g. offer to stay back in the UK for 2 weeks and teach there or take a mid Paris vacation back to the UK to regain the necessary days for skiing?
Or if the job is so strict and inflexible accept that the person is well rewarded and fly to Canada or US or Japanfor ski trips.
As the ski season is over 90 days long however I don't see how skiing in Europe cannot work at all assuming the 90 day block is taken in one go. Take up to December and you are free to go skiing in April as days roll off etc. Only problem I can see is if the 90 days are infact intruding into core ski season.
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Fri 25-08-23 11:20; edited 1 time in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@James the Last, surely the answer is to offer their services to Nixmap instead 
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Poster: A snowHead
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The family could engage an immigration lawyer to advise, assuming they want to keep the tutor
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Assuming the tutor doesn't work 7 days a week, wonder if the employers would pay weekend/none working day travel costs back to the UK so they only spend working days in Paris, thus not spending the full 90 days over there?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Thanks, all these observations are very helpful and useful solutions - save for sugarmoma's, as Nixmap doesn't pay...
What I am hoping for is somebody who has some experience with French visas before going back to the family to request legal advice. Of course, this is Snowheads, and it is futile to anticipate that people will stick to the topic!  So if anybody can answer the questions...
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| SLB79 wrote: |
| Assuming the tutor doesn't work 7 days a week, wonder if the employers would pay weekend/none working day travel costs back to the UK so they only spend working days in Paris, thus not spending the full 90 days over there? |
Except the tutor is likely want to stay there to ski during those non-working days.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@James the Last, in the UK, some such workers enroll in a college course (typically learning English) to get a long-stay visa... Not sure what the French terms on such a visa would be (the UK one certainly used to allow a certain number of casual work hours as well), but may be an option to consider.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@James the Last, it's a rather niche topic and most people probably would pick it up directly with the employer first given they are utilising an employee's scarce resource (in this case Schengen days) much like them asking for work on weekends or out of hours. If they are truly wealthy they presumably have an employment agency to handle staff HR issues like this who can do the necessary research.
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| James the Last wrote: |
| rjs wrote: |
| Do the potential employers not ski? |
Yes they do, but it's going to be work rather than play for the skiing week. |
I was wondering if the employers would be affected by the 90 day rule as well, and would need to plan the Paris stay around leaving time to be in Schengen during the winter.
Obviously if they are Schengen member passport holders then they would not.
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@snowdave, I think such "student" visas exist ... but no idea on terms, etc.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| abc wrote: |
| SLB79 wrote: |
| Assuming the tutor doesn't work 7 days a week, wonder if the employers would pay weekend/none working day travel costs back to the UK so they only spend working days in Paris, thus not spending the full 90 days over there? |
Except the tutor is likely want to stay there to ski during those non-working days. |
This. If working in Paris five days a week, take a Friday night / very early Saturday train to the snow, get 2 days skiing in and return Sunday evening. Doing that every weekend for three months would give more than 3 weeks skiing. Saturdays are often quiet on the slopes, some places give discounts on lift passes, and you can choose somewhere different every weekend.
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@James the Last,
If wanting to ski Schengen countries then contact the French Embassy.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Request plane tickets as part of compensation and ski in Japan, surely?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Listening, unless his mate is Neymar, i’d say thats a push
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In terms of obtaining a work visa it is important to establish if the tutor is employed by the family, or as often the case in this situation, if they are self employed and providing a service to them. Is the family actually their employer and paying employer national insurance etc. or is the tutor self employed in which case the family is their client not their employer. This will have a big influence on the type of visa available and the procedure for applying.
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You know it makes sense.
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| James the Last wrote: |
I don't know what the interaction with Schengen holidays is - as in, are you allowed further Schengen holidays on top of the 90 out of 180 days already spent in the zone. And in any case, it might be difficult to argue that the visa is for working more than 90 days in France, when it is clearly for working no more than 90 days - it's the wanted holidays that would take it over 90!
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That’s the key. The “interaction”.
I got the impression the 90 day household employee exemption existed long before the new 90 day over 180 holiday allowance. This “interaction” with existing legal working permit won’t be the first an employee runs into. There maybe plenty of people having work visa for say, 6 months, ending at the end of the year. Now, does that ex-employee gets to stay to ski for another 90 days? Or does that employee lost the 90 days which every other Brit will get when they’re not working legally in France? It doesn’t sound fair to all those who work legally there. So I’m guessing that “interaction” has already happened to many and had been worked out.
Sounds like a consultation with an immigration lawyer could bring clarity in short order. The family that employs the tutor should be happy to pay for it when asked. (If not, it’s not worth working for such a family)
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@abc,
| Quote: |
Sounds like a consultation with an immigration lawyer could bring clarity in short order. The family that employs the tutor should be happy to pay for it when asked. (If not, it’s not worth working for such a family)
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+1
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Poster: A snowHead
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I said that on Friday
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@holidayloverxx, sorry, should have said +2.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Hurtle, 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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So did a few others.
And it was what @James the Last ask too. Only he also asked specifically snowheads to suggest what potential questions to ask the immigration lawyer about, which is not a bad idea.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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From the UK website
Reference
https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/france/entry-requirements
If you are travelling to France and other Schengen countries without a visa, make sure your whole visit is within the 90-day limit. Visits to Schengen countries within the previous 180 days before you travel count towards your 90 days.
To stay longer (to work or study, for business travel or for other reasons), you will need to meet the French government’s entry requirements. Check which type of visa you may need on the France Visas website.
If you are travelling to France for work, read the guidance on visas and permits.
If you stay in France with a residence permit or long-stay visa, this does not count towards your 90-day visa-free limit.
End quote
For personal and domestic purposes you don’t need a visa.
Ref https://www.gov.uk/guidance/travel-to-france-for-work
However, it seems to me that you will need a visa to prevent the 90 days being chewed up.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I'd ensure that the employers know exactly what their obligations are to the tutor before setting foot in France.
It is all very well doing research on the internet but until you have something official from the French government I'd be wary of the "household staff don't need a visa to work in France" comments. There will be some caveats to this and rules to follow...it may be that they need to have been employed by the family for a set period of time and be provided with health insurance etc. It will be the tutor's responsibility to ensure that the rules are followed as they are the person who gets in trouble if they are not.
If the family are wealthy then I'd suggest that they employ a French immigration lawyer to sort it all out.
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| Hurdy wrote: |
| It will be the tutor's responsibility to ensure that the rules are followed as they are the person who gets in trouble if they are not. |
Not solely. The employer could face some eye-watering fines for employing somebody working illegally - not quite as draconian as the UK's five-years-in-jail penalty, mind!
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| James the Last wrote: |
| Hurdy wrote: |
| It will be the tutor's responsibility to ensure that the rules are followed as they are the person who gets in trouble if they are not. |
Not solely. The employer could face some eye-watering fines for employing somebody working illegally - not quite as draconian as the UK's five-years-in-jail penalty, mind! |
The tutor wouldn't have the chance to be employed as they would be refused at the border if they required a visa but did not have one.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Hurdy wrote: |
| James the Last wrote: |
| Hurdy wrote: |
| It will be the tutor's responsibility to ensure that the rules are followed as they are the person who gets in trouble if they are not. |
Not solely. The employer could face some eye-watering fines for employing somebody working illegally - not quite as draconian as the UK's five-years-in-jail penalty, mind! |
The tutor wouldn't have the chance to be employed as they would be refused at the border if they required a visa but did not have one. |
I'd be quite surprised if they were as a UK individual does not require a visa to enter France so would not be stopped at the border. They might well, however, require a work permit to engage in work once they're there. Would they ever be caught? Unlikely given the type of work. What are the potential consequences? Horrific!
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A UK citizen does not require a visa to enter France if they are travelling there for a purpose that does not require a visa. If I was the tutor I'd rather not wait until the border to find out that I either do not have all the paperwork I require to prove that I am able to work in France with an exemption from getting a visa or I should have applied for one before arriving. As you say...horrific.
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FAQ
