 Poster: A snowHead
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Is there such a thing? Most jackets seem to like to use the term, 'water resistant', which is all well and dandy until it properly snows or rains and then you're back to being cold and soggy. 
In recent years I have taken to wearing a puffer-style jacket and find them great, they're flexible, light, right amount of insulation without the requirement for half a dozen different 'technical' base layers, tunics, vests, tank tops etc blah blah.. I wear just one item under the puffer and that's it.
However, it's the heavy constant snow/rain that's the only issue, if there is truly a waterproof one I'd be very interested. Any knowledge on such a product?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@king key, wear a breathable Goretex shell over a down under layer? That’s my approach.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@king key, down (style) is really intended forbrelatively static activities in very cold temps. so ... "no" might be an appropriate answer?
PS you clearly don't exert yourself too hard while skiing! 
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@under a new name, down and fibre fill jackets have been the norm for high altitude mountaineering for decades. Hardly “static” activities.
@king key, may I suggest a manmade fibre fill rather than down. They are a little heavier and bulkier but perform so much better when wet. These tend to be sold in climbing shops rather than fashion shops. Cover the jacket with a lightweight breathable waterproof such as gortex when needed. This will offer much more flexibility than say the rab resolution jacket which is a down jacket with a pertex outer coating designed for serious expeditions.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@johnE, not exactly highly aerobic activities? And in seriously cold, low pressure environments, non?
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@king key, I have a Phenix ski jacket and it is amazing. Not too hot on a hot day and never cold on a cold day. Used in Glencoe on cold days. 
I got my £700 jacket from TKMAXX for about £130 so worth looking there.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@king key, all the truly waterproof down jackets I’m aware of use a drishell style outer which sits over the baffles and means you lose the puffer style that you like. You can get semi-waterproof puffer style down jackets that use untaped waterproof fabrics - phd make a lot of their jackets with ultra shell which is waterproof, except at the seams. E.g. https://www.phdesigns.co.uk/minimus-down-jacket
I find a down vest and a lightweight shell is a lot more practical. Only time I’ve used a down jacket whilst actually skiing, was at -25C in the Rockies.
Sometimes, the reason people get cold, is they wear too much warm clothing, then get sweaty, then when they stop to wait for their friends to catch up, they get cold. That would definitely be the outcome for me if I routinely skied in a down jacket.
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| GlasgowCyclops wrote: |
@king key, I have a Phenix ski jacket and it is amazing. Not too hot on a hot day and never cold on a cold day. Used in Glencoe on cold days.
I got my £700 jacket from TKMAXX for about £130 so worth looking there. |
I have noticed that last season, the choice at TK Maxx was much less and the prices were considerably higher. Usually, there is lots of temptation - but not recently.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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My wife's favourite winter jacket is from North Face, properly waterproof outer (NF's Goretex equivalent) with fibre insulation underneath. As @snowdave says, the surface fabric is fairly firm and the construction without stitching lines on the surface which would compromise the waterproofing means it doesn't really look like a puffer jacket from the outside. It is synthetic fibre not down.
She doesn't use it for skiing though, she has a ski jacket with a thinner insulating layer and adjusts through choice of mid-layer.
I just wear my ski jacket on cold winter days in the UK
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I've a few PHD products. They have down jackets with taped seams if you really must. I would guess the down is held in baffles and then a conventional outer layer is fastened to it.
https://www.phdesigns.co.uk/omega-down-jacket
Some modern skinny down pullovers (eg my Arc) are made from pertex type fabric which is water resistant and coated with some repellent stuff. That makes them ok in very light rain (wet down is not a pretty thing). If I was even remotely expecting to mess with water then I would always go synthetic.
Most people would find separate garments more useful.
If it's minus 38, then it's roughly 38 degrees too cold for rain.
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As others have said, they probably exist but for design reasons don't look like a traditional down jacket. Normal down jacket + shell seems more useful for most people, certainly a lot more flexible.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Thanks to all, I shall look into all the links and suggestions offered up.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Buy a rain poncho or cape for 20 bucks.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I have a Patagonia Nano-Puff insulated jacket, which has a synthetic fill and is still warm even when damp (and surprisingly good when sopping wet!). It has the added benefit of being easy to wash at home, plus is quick drying.
When I wear it for skiing, I always wear a Goretex shell over it (as I also do if I ski with a down jacket when it's really cold). The reason being that the Goretex protects from windchill, plus the fabric on the insulated/down jackets is pretty thin and would be prone to ripping in a fall if worn on its own.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@king key, your opening post mentioned wanting truly waterproof, rather than highly water resistant. Paramo is the latter, not the former. I don't know how well their "biological analogy" system works with no temperature/humidity gradient either - once you've stuck a puffer underneath, you'll have removed most of the temperature gradient.
I use a basic waterproof shell - e.g. Alpkit have loads at reasonable prices. https://alpkit.com/collections/mens-waterproof-jackets
If you want simplicity, have you considered buffalo or equivalent pertex/pile systems? That's the best single garment I have when it comes to the range of weather it can handle. Slightly different style to a puffer, and not available in any shiny metalicised colours, if those are your thing.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
Anyone else any experience?
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I've worn Paramo for getting on for 30 years. It is (if treated properly and re-proofed when needed) waterproof, so the jacket I bought in 1995 still keeps me dry. It does look pretty old and tatty now! Currently in the cold bit of the winter I use and Alta jacket (15 years old maybe?) and from March onward a Velez smock (at least 10 years old).
Paramo gear is not the lightest, but is pretty warm -- I don't feel the need for a down jacket or gilet underneath at all! I just have a few thin midlayers which get added and removed when needed. You may find the combinationof puffer + Paramo a little toasty.
You do need to re-proof, but that's an easy job in the washing machine.
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@king key, so you are actually layering, just going about it all wrong 
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Isn't part of the point of a down jacket that it provides lots of warmth for relatively little weight? I have a down puffer style ski jacket (NF) which isn't waterproof, but the outer fabric is quite solid and seems to stop quite a bit of water getting in. The problem is, it makes the jacket bulky, quite heavy, and restricts movement a little, so slightly defeats the point of it being down.
Generally I don't test the water resistance of it, because if it's cold enough to wear that jacket rather than my waterproof one, then anything falling from the sky will be snow, not rain. But I do occasionally get it wrong!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@karin, exactly. OK, Himalayan climbers do climb in hugely thick full body down suits buts that's out of necessity. Down's far more optimal for low intensity activity in cold dry conditions.
For skiing, IMHO, far better off with a synthetic down insulator (e.g. I find my Arcteryx Atom to be very versatile), proper wicking baselayer(s), and a decent shell.
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| under a new name wrote: |
For skiing, IMHO, far better off with a synthetic down insulator (e.g. I find my Arcteryx Atom to be very versatile), proper wicking baselayer(s), and a decent shell. |
For general skiing, I totally agree - Primaloft would be my suggestion....probably as a Gilet, to keep the core warm and not restrict movement.
I do have a down jacket that can zip into a Goretex shell - but it's too warm unless it's very cold - or lots of wind chill - when it's very comforting.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Old Fartbag, yip, I carry a down gilet for exactly when down's good, e.g. layering up in the cold after a skin up.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| under a new name wrote: |
| @king key, so you are actually layering, just going about it all wrong |
I'm not sure if we are talking cross purposes here. The Buffalo fleece I wear draws perspiration away from the body brilliantly, however I do feel the cold so I find one of the 2 puffer jackets I have (one for average temps the other for super cold) over the top works very well. All the garments are light in weight and I have no restriction of movement. I'm not a newbie and skied for over 40 years with 50+ weeks on snow. The only issue is a method of waterproofing what I have for inclement days, a waterproof puffer would have done but seeing as they are thin on the ground then a thin waterproof covering jacket will suffice. Not sure how "I am going about it all wrong" comes in.
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@king key, ahhh, if the Buffalo thing wicks then that's good. Still think though that down down - waterproof or not - is sub-optimal. A modern synthetic will be lighter and perform better and there'll be a wider range of waterproof ones.
Just for reference, my usual layering is a wicking non-thermal layer, a light thermal (and in restaurants this is usually the uncover point), a synthetic down (Arc' Atom), shell. That works (for me) happily between 0C and ~15C.
My main concern on your buffalo thing is how smelly it might get? My first layer (and usually the second) are fresh daily.
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You know it makes sense.
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Can I suggest you take a look at Buffalo's website (https://www.buffalosystems.co.uk/), they have been manufacturing clothing for explorers, mountainteers, resue teams, the military etc for over 30 years (my suit I bought in the late 80's and is still fine). As for smelly, absolutely not. I have a really keen nose (often annoyingly so) and can assure you their clothing does not pong after a few days.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@king key, that's very impressive! pre covid I had an unusually keen nose, while I miss some elements, its better post virus 
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Poster: A snowHead
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| under a new name wrote: |
@karin, exactly. OK, Himalayan climbers do climb in hugely thick full body down suits buts that's out of necessity. Down's far more optimal for low intensity activity in cold dry conditions.
For skiing, IMHO, far better off with a synthetic down insulator (e.g. I find my Arcteryx Atom to be very versatile), proper wicking baselayer(s), and a decent shell. |
I pop up and bore people with this in most of these threads but down is actually a terrible mid layer for a couple of important reasons:
1. you need a very tightly woven material to retain the down, this means that it doesn't allow air to flow easily from base layer to shell which is a problem for moisuture management
2. that moisture is bad news for the efficacy of down as an insulator
Synthetic mid layers (like your Atom) can you less tightly woven fabrics allowing more transmission of damp air and if they do get damp then the insulation stays more effective.
I own a couple of down jackets but use them ON TOP of my other layers when either its extremely cold (hence DRY) or to keep warm when I stop moving (skitouring, mountaineering). They are also great for strolling to the pub on cold dry nights.
Down jackets are really nice to wear so people like owning them but then try to use them in roles they are unsuitable for.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@jedster, exactly
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I don't think down wicks very well. I use a synthetic base layer (Patagonia Capilene impregnated with a silver ion anti stink which really works) then depending on temperature either a second loose ase layer, RA direct alpha or Patagonia crew air and a Goretex shell. If it's really cold, ie <-30degc, then I wear a Patagonia jacket which has a thin down liner sown in. I figure if it's -30 I'm not really going to e hiking off too far or sweating too much but rather staying in bounds more.
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I thought Buffalo clothing was supposed to be a top layer. Wearing a down jacket over the top of it won't get the air inside the down layer as warm as if it was over a conventional mid-layer garment.
Maybe you wouldn't need as thick a jacket if it was over something else.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@rogg, down doesn't wick at all, afaik.
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| king key wrote: |
| In recent years I have taken to wearing a puffer-style jacket and find them great, they're flexible, light, right amount of insulation without the requirement for half a dozen different 'technical' base layers, tunics, vests, tank tops etc blah blah.. I wear just one item under the puffer and that's it. |
Most people just wear 3 layers - thermal base layer, fleece mid-layer and waterproof outer layer. Sometimes an extra mid-layer or you can have something lighter/heavier depending on conditions. Outer layer can be insulated but most people won't use down or have too much because when doing physical activity you will get you too warm. And while I believe it's possible to make a down/insulated jacket waterproof it's a lot more difficult/expensive. The insulation hast to be treated for a start. And think breathability becomes an issue.
| king key wrote: |
| However, it's the heavy constant snow/rain that's the only issue, if there is truly a waterproof one I'd be very interested. Any knowledge on such a product? |
There are plenty of guides and articles. Just googling one now it suggests Haglöfs Nordic Expedition Down Jacket as an expensive option or Rab Valiance for a more modest price. But neither from what I can see would be viewed as skiing jackets.
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@rjs, Buffalo (& its equivalents) is meant to be base, mid and top layer. The principle is that if you get cold, you add another layer. I have a pertex/pile "shirt" (over-the-head style), and also a "jacket" with a full zip. If I get cold with the shirt, I add the jacket. I usually add a base layer as well, since that's easier to keep clean, but the buffalo recommendation is that you wear their clothes next to your skin.
I've used both layers combined, for a full day of torrential rain, cycle touring along the Norwegian coast. I stayed warm and dry. The only warm/water resistant layers I took for six months of canoeing and hiking in Alaska was two layers of pertex/pile. It looks pretty scruffy, but it works.
Where it fails, just like my mate's paramo, is if you stop moving for a (very) long period of time, or you sit on something wet. Eventually the moisture seeps through. Belaying is fine, as is repairing a puncture. An hour long lunch stop gets marginal.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@snowdave, Ok, I'm still not convinced that it is designed to work with a down layer.
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| jedster wrote: |
I pop up and bore people with this in most of these threads but down is actually a terrible mid layer for a couple of important reasons:
1. you need a very tightly woven material to retain the down, this means that it doesn't allow air to flow easily from base layer to shell which is a problem for moisuture management
2. that moisture is bad news for the efficacy of down as an insulator
Synthetic mid layers (like your Atom) can you less tightly woven fabrics allowing more transmission of damp air and if they do get damp then the insulation stays more effective.
I own a couple of down jackets but use them ON TOP of my other layers when either its extremely cold (hence DRY) or to keep warm when I stop moving (skitouring, mountaineering). They are also great for strolling to the pub on cold dry nights.
Down jackets are really nice to wear so people like owning them but then try to use them in roles they are unsuitable for. |
You and I both 
But I’ll add point 3: down doesn’t work well when compressed; it needs to be lofted with lots of air between the feathers. Therefore as you say, best as an outer layer.
IMO thick fleece is the best for insulation under a shell/over a vase layer. Not waterproof or windproof on its own so no barrier to vapour transport and vents well when you open zips, but very warm when the shell is sealed up.
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FAQ
I have had a Buffalo top and sallapettes which is my go to ski wear under the puffer, hence why only one garment underneath. I can't rate it high enough. Bought it in the late eighties and still wear it regularly (his morning at Hemel for example!). It's downside is rain penetration, I know they say that isn't an issue as the fleece doesn't get saturated and still insulates, but it's still an unpleasant experience. I wear waterproof bottoms on wet days and that's solved the issue of a wet bum on the lift! 
