 Poster: A snowHead
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| Mike Pow wrote: |
I find it fascinating that you feel that my method of teaching is inferior, a short cut, a dis-service in the long term to my students |
That is not what I wrote...
I am sure you can jump straight to teaching parallel.
However (in my opinion):
i) Snow plough remains an essential skiing skill. So I prefer to start there.
ii) Jumping straight to parallel requires perfect flat terrain and snow (rarely available)
Ultimately a good teacher should always be adaptable (to learners need & environment) rather than using the same techniques religiously.
While I start with a plough some learners, especially kids, obviously progress much faster than others.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Thu 29-06-23 10:39; edited 2 times in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| uann wrote: |
| ... Hasn't this all not been hashed to death before? |
Reference provided above. I dare say that could be said of much discussed in these pages. It passes the time.
| uann wrote: |
| ... fair point on why it's taught, my point just that it's a very helpful get out of jail (if not free) card. |
In terms of get out of jail....
(a) snowboarders don't need that crutch, perhaps it's worth skiers developing a similar level of skill?
(b) you shouldn't be in crust, but it's hard to keep your weight forward enough if you try to plough that.
(c) it's quite difficult to plough rockered skis in a tracked-out forest run out.
(d) you can stop way quicker with the entire edges of both skis (a hockey stop) than you can with a wedge.
Of course whatever technique people want to use is up to them, but that needs to work both ways.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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So the argument is that teaching snowplough is primarily done because it allows group teaching - which makes it cheaper?
And that after learning to plough you have to unlearn it? Which takes time?
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@phil_w, if the track isn't wide enough to go full sideways? (Aren't boards a bit shorter?)
Anywaay it's usually ice, not crust (it gets well skied).
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Thu 29-06-23 11:03; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| So 1 to 1 the plough isn't essential. I can get that and also think that it might be very harmful having people in groups or self teaching attempting to go straight to parallel which effectively would mean hefting themselves round between alternate traverse positions and crude zig zagging. Now the edging and balance used in this may not be totally redundant but surely the best blend is everything including the plough in moderation. |
For groups, absolutely
For individuals, I prefer the 'straight to parallel' method
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Strings in bows comes to my mind. If the situation warrants a plough then use it.
I can't imagine any instructor anywhere in the world denigrating the use of the plough.
One aspect that hasn't been touched on is the age of beginners. A child will attempt to do anything suggested to them.
An adult beginner can be so seized with fear that the only route for development is a wide-ish stance and a means of preventing the ski from moving at all.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| Mike Pow wrote: |
I find it fascinating that you feel that my method of teaching is inferior, a short cut, a dis-service in the long term to my students |
That is not what I wrote... |
This is what you wrote
"snow-plough (or a stem)...is an essential life-skill for skiing
Going straight to parallel might sound like a fast track learning curve.
However it requires perfect flat terrain and good snow - which aren't always available.
Plus some of the basic skills will be missed.
As I see it snow plough is an essential skill for skiing rather than a "beginner turn".
You certainly can skip straight to parallel (*if* you have a perfectly flat terrain) but it is not necessarily a short cut longer-term."
My interpretation of the above is if you don't teach the 'essential' snow plough method first and foremost then the student is not being taught basic skills; is using a short cut; and will hinder long term development
| Quote: |
Ultimately a good teacher should always be adaptable (to learners need & environment) rather than using the same techniques religiously.
While I start with a plough some learners, especially kids, obviously progress much faster than others. |
Surely you're contradicting yourself there
You always start with the snow plough regardless of age, athletic ability, terrain or snow conditions
I've taught 'straight to parallel' on terrain which is not perfectly flat (your word) with poor snow conditions
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| Layne wrote: |
So the argument is that teaching snowplough is primarily done because it allows group teaching - which makes it cheaper?
And that after learning to plough you have to unlearn it? Which takes time? |
That's been my experience
Both as a student and as an instructor
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Layne wrote: |
| So the argument is that teaching snowplough is primarily done because it allows group teaching - which makes it cheaper? |
Not in my opinion, no. But I think it's important to define what people mean when they talk about a snowplough. A good snowplough is not a very wide wedge stance, and allows the skier to have a bit of extra stability at slow speed so they can develop the ability to make turns by rotating their skis. It's not a very wide position stance width, where the edges are jammed in to the snow to act as a braking force and the skier is encouraged to use an ever wider distance between their skis (often by pushing the outside ski markedly sideways at the beginning of the turn) as the terrain gets steeper. IMO that's a bad snowplough, which sadly I see being performed (and taught) all too often.
A good snowplough forms a perfectly natural progression to parallel skiing. A bad snowplough doesn't.
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| phil_w wrote: |
| (a) snowboarders don't need that crutch, perhaps it's worth skiers developing a similar level of skill? |
I see countless snowboarders habitually kick their back foot around as they initiate the turn, including on the mildest of terrain. I'd consider that the equivalent of a big sideways push of the skis, perhaps developed from a poorly implemented snowplough. It's a different kind of crutch, but a crutch nonetheless.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Layne wrote: |
| So the argument is that teaching snowplough is primarily done because it allows group teaching - which makes it cheaper? |
Not in my opinion, no. But I think it's important to define what people mean when they talk about a snowplough. A good snowplough is not a very wide wedge stance, and allows the skier to have a bit of extra stability at slow speed so they can develop the ability to make turns by rotating their skis. It's not a very wide position stance width, where the edges are jammed in to the snow to act as a braking force and the skier is encouraged to use an ever wider distance between their skis (often by pushing the outside ski markedly sideways at the beginning of the turn) as the terrain gets steeper. IMO that's a bad snowplough, which sadly I see being performed (and taught) all too often.
A good snowplough forms a perfectly natural progression to parallel skiing. A bad snowplough doesn't. |
100%
A gliding wedge turn is a joy to watch, and also very difficult to perform
Poor boot fit; the wrong type of ski; and biomechanics (especially in adults) combined with poor teaching too often results in a bad snow plough
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Thu 29-06-23 11:40; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Mike Pow wrote: |
Surely you're contradicting yourself there
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Not at all...
While I will always start with a snow-plough some learners will progress to parallel turns much faster (hence the need to be adaptable).
In particular *some* little kids on short skis & flat terrain often end up skiing parallel straight away.
Less athletic adults more generally spend much longer at the plough and plough-parallel stages.
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Thu 29-06-23 11:38; edited 1 time in total
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| rob@rar wrote: |
A good snowplough forms a perfectly natural progression to parallel skiing. A bad snowplough doesn't. |
This exactly.
A good plough can be developed naturally into a parallel turn.
While simultaneously acquiring the basics (such as posture and balance over the outside ski).
Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much  on Thu 29-06-23 11:41; edited 1 time in total
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You know it makes sense.
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| Mike Pow wrote: |
100%
Poor boot fit, biomechanics (especially in adults), combined with poor teaching too often results in a bad snow plough |
I haven't taught many 'never-evers' but one does stand out as making amazing progress from snowplough to basic parallel turns. She was a personal trainer, so fit and agile, but perhaps more importantly she was a former classically trained dancer so had amazing proprioception and biomechanics control. Within 20 turns she was moving from snowplough to plough parallel on the lesson slope at Hemel, and within an hour making accurate parallel turns on the main slope.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Mike Pow wrote: |
| A gliding wedge turn is a joy to watch, and also very difficult to perform |
We run some clinics at Hemel called 'building blocks' which require experienced recreational skiers to focus closely on the fundamental skiing skills, sometimes using a plough, or gliding wedge as you cal it, to address weaknesses in their performance skiing. I think it's an incredibly powerful learning tool. If their timing, movements, balance and feel are good enough to perform a good gliding wedge it can transform their parallel turns. You can then investigate changing the blend of steering elements in their performance skiing by varying the kind of plough turn they make. Key to making them versatile, all-mountain skiers.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Mmmm... now, as a non-instructor, I'm getting a little confused.... between a good snowplough and a bad snowplough...
But I think this may be an expert/instructor discussion that is too detailed for me.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| ... I see countless snowboarders habitually kick their back foot around as they initiate the turn, including on the mildest of terrain. I'd consider that the equivalent of a big sideways push of the skis, perhaps developed from a poorly implemented snowplough. It's a different kind of crutch, but a crutch nonetheless. |
I see a lot of that too, albeit obviously not from experts. The analogy was intended to point out the obvious truth that a snowplough is not "essential", as was being claimed here.
On your point, I'm not suggesting that some people use crutches - obviously they do.
I'm questioning instead that teaching those borders to kick their back foot around better would somehow make them stop doing it that I find unlikely.
Any tuition relating to balance (on or off a snowboard) may help, but practising the very bad habit you're trying to get rid of... seems counter intuitive to me.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Practicing a good Snowplough is not the same as practising a bad snowplough surely. It's the latter getting ingrained then used as a fits all solution that is the problem. Not the concept of a good snowplough.
Of course if all instructors can't be trusted to reliably teach the good sp ( or more likely students add their own bad practices to it outside of lessons) then there is a problem.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| phil_w wrote: |
| ... but practising the very bad habit you're trying to get rid of... seems counter intuitive to me. |
Agreed, if what you're practising is a bad habit. A well performed snowplough is not a bad habit, but an excellent way to develop the foundation skills which will underpin all the skiing that a skier will do. A snowplough which is learned or taught incorrectly can easily lead to bad habits, in exactly the same way that badly learned or taught parallel turns can lead to bad habits.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
Of course if all instructors can't be trusted to reliably teach the good sp ( or more likely students add their own bad practices to it outside of lessons) then there is a problem. |
Indeed, but do you think those instructors who don't teach a good snowplough do a bang-up brilliant job of teaching class-leading parallel turns?
For me the frequent debate about the utility of teaching snowplough turns is actually a debate about the quality of teaching per se.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Layne wrote: |
Mmmm... now, as a non-instructor, I'm getting a little confused.... between a good snowplough and a bad snowplough...
But I think this may be an expert/instructor discussion that is too detailed for me. |
A good snow plough looks as smooth as a stealth bomber
A bad snow plough looks like a supermarket trolley with a wonky wheel
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| Quote: |
For me the frequent debate about the utility of teaching snowplough turns is actually a debate about the quality of teaching per se.
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This!
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| Quote: |
looks like a supermarket trolley with a wonky wheel
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Hey, that's our [ex]PM you're talking about 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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IMO. As the Snowplough is so useful, you either:
1. Teach the Parallel Turn straight away - and when that is ingrained to a reasonable level, teach the Plough.
2. Initially teach the Plough and then morph seamlessly from that into the parallel.
I think a case can be made for each approach....but either way, the Plough can (and should?) be taught.
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| phil_w wrote: |
(a) snowboarders don't need that crutch, perhaps it's worth skiers developing a similar level of skill? |
Surely the snowboard equivalent of a snow-plough is side slipping?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Haggis_Trap, naw, it’s sitting down in a pack on the wrong side of a blind summit
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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You can side slip on skis
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Nah, The poles are the crutch. Snowboard equivalent is the unnecessarily long traverse
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You know it makes sense.
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@Mike Pow, interestingly, having not been taught it, when you watch the day 3 video, you can see Gina is creating a small snowplough at the start of every turn
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| swskier wrote: |
| @Mike Pow, interestingly, having not been taught it, when you watch the day 3 video, you can see Gina is creating a small snowplough at the start of every turn |
At times, and on certain parts of the slope, yes
Unfortunately in times of stress our DNA is pre-programmed to make us get small - to protect the vital organs; shy away from the perceived danger - put us in the back seat; and to try to slow things down - using a small, gliding wedge shape at the start of the turn to control acceleration, and in her mind help with direction change
Ironically being small, back, and pushing that downhill ski away from her and putting unnecessary balance on the uphill ski will actually make her go faster with less control
Once she/anyone realises that the 'perceived threat' isn't that bad, then balancing more on the downhill ski and accepting the acceleration at the start of the turn when both skis are in the fall line will enable her/anyone to go through that phase quicker, make the direction change quicker through pivoting/steering both skis, and use the movement of completing the arc of the turn going back uphill as the primary mechanism for speed control
That's why I don't feel the need to teach the snow plough
It's there
It's inbuilt in our DNA unfortunately
We don't need to emphasise it otherwise it will be the go to move when things get more challenging
Whilst you can see a small plough / stemming develop at times, the crucial thing is the downhill edge of the uphill ski is not digging into the snow impeding both skis to get across the fall line
An all too common sight when fear meets poor snow plough technique/instruction
I've taught both methods and the 'straight to parallel' works better for the students I teach
When I have new students who've been taught the snow plough from the start, my biggest challenge is to get rid of the mindset that stemming the downhill leg so that it gets on edge and gripping the slope with the downhill edge of the uphill ski will provide more control in the turn
What actually happens is the student gets fixed in a position in a state of semi-control (especially on steeper terrain) where they accelerate faster that they want to and eat up the width of the piste way faster than they want to
Then it's normally a combination of upper body rotation, skidding, and leading with the uphill ski that helps them finish off the turn enough to feel comfortable to make the next turn in the opposite direction
For those who don't really correct this but are comfortable with acceleration and speed this manifests itself as the 'Matador Turn'
The uphill ski leads the turn
The downhill knee folds in to sit behind the uphill knee
The hip opens up to allow both skis to skid around the corner with the skis facing across the slope and the upper body anywhere between 45 and 90 degrees to the skis
Then the skier 'parks & rides' holding that position as they eat up the width of the slope in a fairly straight, edged traverse
Before doing a further skid /hockey stop to scrub off the required speed to enable them to make a turn in the opposite direction
Skiers will spend their whole day/holiday/ski life repeating these movement patterns wondering why they get absolutely shattered on / during each run; and why transitioning to more difficult terrain and/or snow conditions sees them on their backside more than on their feet
There's a reason why huge ski circuses with kms of blue and gentle red pisted runs are so popular
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Poster: A snowHead
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It still scares me when I feck up a turn in difficult terrain and end up rocketing across the slope so I can empathise with locked in ploughers even if they are just locking in a negative cycle of moves.
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FAQ
