I got new skis recently, and was looking for some advice regarding waxing. I want to wax them to store over summer (gets very hot in my house), they won't be used until late Autumn. I was looking at the Piste Office site and the Dominator Renew then Zoom wax sound ideal, but should if I do those now will they still be good for the Autumn? Or should I just use the renew for storage over summer, then use the Zoom? Or use the cheaper yellow stuff for storage, then remove it (how?) and do the Renew and Zoom just before skiing?
Would appreciate any advice I'm completely new to ski maintenance, thanks!
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Go and visit Jon at the piste office and do his one day ski maintenance course! It’s really good and will answer all your questions - and you’ll also get his help to sort out that wee scratch on your new bases.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Inboard wrote:
Go and visit Jon at the piste office and do his one day ski maintenance course! It’s really good and will answer all your questions - and you’ll also get his help to sort out that wee scratch on your new bases.
I'd love to but getting a day in Nottingham would be quite tricky for me (busy weekends), I was planning on ordering his video course on USB along with the waxes. Yes having him take a look at the scratch would be perfect!
@menatarms, +1 for doing Jon's course...but for me most of the benefit you get is just by applying the wax. So (for my snow skis) I just stick with the cheapest Universal I can find -- it will still be good in the autumn.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
I hardly ever bother with storage wax, tend to dry them after the last trip then rewax and sharpen before the next trip.
For mine I've whacked some of the renew stuff on now but not scraped. (If you're keen a couple of rounds of the renew wax in autumn wouldn't hurt.) I don't actually like the yellow storage wax (I might just not have the temperature right though), but it is cheaper.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
IMO punter skiers are too anal about all this stuff.
Waxing and not scraping between seasons is a nice to have but no biggie IMO if you forget/don't have time.
And using a special storage for me is definitely overkill.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Stop skiing, dry them off put them somewhere safe where you don't have to look at them all the time and cry because it's months and months before they get to come out again.
Wax them sometime before you use them. Take them out and ski the hell out of them...
Repeat!
Oh, don't leave them with the snowboards during summer because one of them will be all bitter and twisted come winter and you don't want that!
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Well, since these are NEW, wax them. It takes a while for skis to get thoroughly saturated with wax.
I don't normally do storage wax. My skis are stored dry, with a layer of rug between their tails and the concrete, indoors, in a dry room, out of sunlight. I used to do storage wax. Until I didn't and they were just fine in the fall. Just needed a few passes with a steel brush and they looked fine. I always do a ton of waxing in October anyway to get ready for the coming season. Then, in season, they are waxed about every 60,000 vertical feet. (Yes, I track that roughly per pair just to know which set I should bring home that afternoon.)
But, new skis really need about 6 or so cycles of wax/use before their glide gets decent. And I'm guessing from your post they haven't had it yet. So, slap the storage wax on them just to get more wax on them.
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I've never used storage wax, it sounds like an excuse to sell something.
Wash them down with clean water, no detergents, dry them thoroughly with a towel & leave somewhere warm for a few days, before storing them somewhere dry
Wax/service them before or after storage, the worst that can happen is corrosion on the edges if they weren't cleaned properly or stored somewhere damp.
Probably better to wax them before storage, but this means there is no ritual excitement of getting the skis out to service them at the start of the season
Needing 5-6 wax/use cycles to get optimum gliding ? I think it is more to do with getting tuned into a new pair of skis, I doubt that any mortal could tell the difference between the first and the nth waxing, it will be what the skis were like before the waxing that makes a difference, ie waxing a brand new pair of skis will make a very small difference , but waxing a well worn pair of skis with well silvered bases will make a big difference.
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OK…no one yet has talked about sintered (eg PTex 2000 plus) versus extruded bases (eg PTex1100) - and important to note that the OP says ‘gets very hot in my house’.
Plastic does not like UV. Witness plastic buckets, hose reels etc in the garden, which get a dusty layer and becomes brittle. Same with PTex. The white layer is the same as the ‘oxidised’ layer on outside plastic - which is something we need to think about far more:
‘….It's astonishing to think that sunlight can break down plastic, which is essentially one compound that typically has some additives mixed in, into tens of thousands of compounds that dissolve in water," says co-author Collin Ward, assistant scientist in WHOI's Marine Chemistry and Geochemistry Department….’
But putting that on one side, the whiteness on ski bases (‘base burn’) comes from a breakdown of the plastic, which then does not absorb wax. But hang on, extruded bases (with a far more ‘closed’ structure than a sintered base) don’t absorb much wax anyway. My youth Mantras are pTex1100 extruded and have white patches all over the bases, which a hot wax and scrape does little to resolve. That’s because it is a cheaper base and just doesn’t really absorb wax. In contrast, my Kenjas have a 2000 series sintered base, and it was very worthwhile from new waxing and scraping them a number of times (5?) before use. A sintered base will absorb loads of wax.
It also will dry out, particularly if left in a hot place in UV light (aka sunlight). Then it will dry out FAST - witness the film inside your car windscreen. What is it? Polymerisers from the dashboard plastic. Which is losing condition and the evaporated elements are condensing on your screen; invisible process otherwise. Oh, and you are breathing them in, too.
So….the OP should establish what type of base s/he has, and act accordingly.
Extruded base? Wax thick layer on and leave in storage in cool dark place.Then scrape and brush just before use.
Sintered base? Wax and scrape. Wax and scrape. Wax and scrape….get as much wax into the structure as possible. Then a final thick wax and leave in storage in cool dark place. Then scrape, wax again and scrape and brush before use.
Waxing during storage also stops edges from rusting if there’s any moisture about. We need to keep some of the mad pile of skis in a depressingly damp garage in the side of an Alp and it’s essential to wax the skis and leave thick layer on April-Dec to stop the edges rusting.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Could someone explain this wax/scrape, wax/scrape process to me please. Why is scraping the wax off before dripping new wax on different from simply ironing in the existing wax again? OK, I can sort of understand this as a mechanism for removing ingrained dirt from the base, but how does it work on new skis?
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Yes I can … and many good vids on this.
Do you have extruded base?
Yes?
Then this is unnecessary.
Do you have a sintered base?
Yes?
Then indeed just repeat normal waxing routine including vigourous brushing and it’s amazing how much wax you can get into the open structure of the sintered base material.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@valais2, good simple technical explanation
I would also add that some not all manufacturers ship skis with a strange type of storage wax on them and I have had a few pairs that were awful to ski "out of the box". I always do at least a couple wax scrape cycles on new skis to get rid of storage wax... I could be out of date on this but can't hurt to put a couple of wax cycles in the bases before storing...
Another useful tip is to scrape the edges clean of wax and put a wipe of Zardox Notwax on the edges to stop rust... wax absorbs water and edges won't be protected well with wax all over them..
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@valais2, how can you tell the difference between base types? I.e., how do I know?
How warm is too warm? Skis are stored in the spare room over summer. They are left to drip dry on the balcony beforehand, so damp is not an issue. The room faces north and only has a small window, so no direct sunlight and I never put the heating on, but it does get hot here in summer. It’s still probably the coolest room, but I’d guess avg 18deg.
I don’t bother with storage wax – skis are stored with whatever wax is still on them, only getting a fresh wax if they need it (some don’t get out much some years. I should probably sell them). Theoretically I could put them in the basement instead (cooler, not damp there either), but it’s a bit full
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@skimottaret, hmm interesting…hydrocarbon wax hydrophobic so shouldn’t absorb water. It def stops my edges from rusting in the garage. For me: No wax = rusty. Wax = not rusty. But I will have a read about this.
@Scarlet, the way I would look at it is this. Is the basement cooler than the room? If yes, basement wins. Can I see things in the room even if it faces North. My study faces North but I can readily see things in it. So there IS light and that will have a UV component. Is the basement darker and gloomier than the spare room? If yes, basement wins. A cupboard in the spare room would be fine though, probs.
Very difficult to tell which pTex by eye, smell or any other sense. I look it up. Sometimes you have to dig and dig - I will need to ask Elan since I can’t find it anywhere. Volkl not good on their website but EVO in the USA does tend to give the pTex number of the base (eg 1100) and then you can look it up on one of the supplier sites.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@skimottaret, nope I am confused. All hydrocarbon waxes are hydrophobic as far as I understand it. However, there is a special hydrophilic wax for use on dry ski slopes….
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Sorry more … it’s difficult to find anything specific and reliable on just how much difference in absorbing wax there is between extruded and sintered bases.
Most technical commentators state that extruded bases need waxing less often. I do not find this, quite the reverse. One day on aggressive snow and the base is clear of wax. They are made by melting ptex pellets into sheet, have a closed structure, and so hold wax on the surface. They are cheaper and easier to repair. Glide is not so good, and they are less hydrophobic, since wax gets ripped easily from the structure, since it’s essentially just lurking on the top.
Sintered bases have an open structure since they are made by compressing ultra-high-molecular-weight polyethylene pellets together. This open structure holds wax, and therefore the base is more hydrophobic. It’s important to hot wax regularly to top up and renew the wax, since base burn will result from reaching the point where too little wax is held between the ptex and the snow, which can render the base into a closed structure. With the open structure, wax is held mechanically to the base, making it less likely to rip off as you glide.
This guy is hilarious - brilliant unselfconscious video - and has HUGE amount of craft knowledge:
Wow thanks for all the responses to this, there's so much information to get my head around. I've no idea what kind of base the ski has or how to find this information out.
I was thinking I was just going to put a thick layer of the dominator base renew on for over summer (they're stored in a ski bag in a dry room) and then in the autumn before skiing scrape them and put on the renew again, scrape and brush, and then dominator zoom and scrape and brush?
I'm very keen to keep them in as good skiing condition as I can to really get the best out of them on the slopes. Will order the USB from Jon at the Piste Office, sadly can't make it down for a course this year at least.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@valais2, From your link "Hydrophilic waxes do the opposite, they attract water" I just don't risk it as some waxes do absorb water, also the ones that don't can trap water onto the edges, I just clean the edges and add notwax teflon to edges to stop rust. I have had skis rust in the past with "storage" wax left on em...
also , I hate skiing on tuned skis that have wax on the edges , takes a while to scrub off and they can feel squirrelly, why risk it...
It's worth mentioning that you should also tune the edges of new skis.
Yes, I know they feel sharp and that you think they are sharp...but the truth is that on new skis the edges can be all over the place in terms of true angles and often have burrs.
If you have the kit to wax them then you are sure to have the kit to tune them...do it.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
rungsp wrote:
A lot of good advice here about waxing new skis.
It's worth mentioning that you should also tune the edges of new skis.
Yes, I know they feel sharp and that you think they are sharp...but the truth is that on new skis the edges can be all over the place in terms of true angles and often have burrs.
If you have the kit to wax them then you are sure to have the kit to tune them...do it.
I just listened to a podcast where they talked about how you should tune new skis. I don't have any of the gear yet this is my first set of skis, I'm not even sure what angle the skis have been tuned to. They certainly feel very sharp.
After all it is free
After all it is free
@menatarms, speak to Jon at the piste office
He will sell you what you need, he'll tell you how to use it and he can tell you about your angles.
He's basically an entry level drug dealer for tuning kit....once you start you'll be hooked
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@skimottaret, ....very much defer to your personal experience with the waxes you have, and absolutely respect it if you have found a remedy. Agree entirely re wax on edges - Toke scrapers sometimes have a handy little notch cut in one end which is there to run along each edge and swiftly get the wax off. For storage I just use whatever I don't like very much or have obtained cheaply - often Toko Universal, which I find to be a weird wax which becomes very brittle and flakes off madly in chunks when you scrape and brush.
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
@rungsp, There are quite a few up to date lists of manufacturers' edge angles - including on Jon C's website - and you can always run a black felt tip down 30cms of edge and then see which file guide takes off the correct, complete surface across the edge. I start with the manufacturer's angle but do always check with a felt tip since they can change them without warning.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Long ago I abandoned "manufacturer's edge angles". First, not all mfrs. turn out consistent edges even the length of the ski. Two, demo skis have frequently been tuned to something else based on the rep's tastes, the shop's tastes, etc. Shops are famous for ignoring tuning requests. Either they have 25 pair to do after they close and it's too much effort to tweak machine settings between every pair, OR, they think they know better than you what's the best tune. Some detune tip and tail, some don't. You need to decide what YOU like. The 100% best way to learn this is to do it yourself. I know I like a 1/3 (base°/side°) on my groomer skis. I like a 1/2 on my off piste skis (but am thinking I may switch to 1/3 for them just because there may be some places I'm forced to get on groomers.) All my skis started out as 1/1 but I slowly changed them over the years as I made a little change, skied it, etc. Since I'm my own technician, I actually KNOW (not hope I know) what was done to the ski and I feel what the result is.
We all start out with the notion that the way a ski was shipped is the way the ski designer envisioned it being tuned. But some skis are shipped with the company envisioning you will be tuning them prior to skiing, or others assuming that the skier is a recreationd skier who doesn't know a darn thing about edges, so they ship the most undemanding edge out there. You can directly email them asking for the recommended tune and get varying answers depending on who answers the email. Give up this quest for a "manufacturer's edge". Learn what you like, for your skis and your conditions.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
I watched this video about ski tuning from Sidecut:
To be honest....it looks a real craft, that requires both skill and a fair amount of equipment and time, that I think for just one pair of skis just doesn't really look worth investing in for my needs. I think I'd be better off sending them to Jon or someone more local with experience of hand tuning skis maybe once or twice a year for the amount I ski, and just doing the waxing myself before each trip (and possibly mid trip). I have a little woodworking workshop in the garage that I don't spend anywhere near enough time in considering the machines I have, I don't want to add more to the pile of underused tools!
In the future if other family members decide they want their own skis too then maybe I'll invest in it but for now, it's to Jon or this local chap:
Was hoping someone here might know them or someone else good in the north east?
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
menatarms wrote:
I just listened to a podcast where they talked about how you should tune new skis. I don't have any of the gear yet this is my first set of skis, I'm not even sure what angle the skis have been tuned to. They certainly feel very sharp.
Sometimes however, there are instances where an individual ski model will vary from the manufacturer's default. In this case, you'll need a black marker pen to mark the edge and then try incremental edge angles to see what takes most of the ink off when lightly filed; the more ink you take off, the closer the match between guide and edge angle.
EDIT: Ooops, just seen @valais2's reply. That'll teach me for not posting for a few hours after I thought I'd replied....
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
A quick question on google
Does ski base material contains pores?
Thread: Does ski base material contains pores?
(If that doesn't work okay then try:
http://www.escnordic.org.uk/
and click Myths and Fables and then Base Pores)
"there are absolutely no pores in press sintered UHMWPE base material."
Chemical Engineer at IMS Kunststoff AG, manufacturer of P-Tex.
Some background Wiki on UHMWPE:
[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UHMWPE[/ame]
In particular, note the stuff about abrasion resistance and coeficient of friction.
What d'ya think?
Just realised that the links don't work
As I suspected, sintered ski bases are not porous
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Sun 23-04-23 21:26; edited 1 time in total
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
This is the base of my very abused, new this year skis, the silvering/whitening that can be seen has nothing to do with UV/chemical degradation of the ski surface, it is due to microscopic hairs & scratches from the snow, grit, stones etc, applying wax will smooth down these hairs, just like applying hair oil, to reduce the friction that they cause.
Unless you leave your skis in direct sunlight all summer, they will never see enough UV to cause any degradation of the bases.
I've been skiing 37 yrs & spent 15 years in polymer research & development.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@tangowaggon, ....yes this use of 'pores' is interesting....in the Wiki entry for 'Sintering' they do use 'pore' but I have challenged that word:
"...Sintering is generally considered successful when the process reduces porosity and enhances properties such as strength, electrical conductivity, translucency and thermal conductivity. In some special cases, sintering is carefully applied to enhance the strength of a material while preserving porosity (e.g. in filters or catalysts, where gas absorbency is a priority). During the firing process, atomic diffusion drives powder surface elimination in different stages, starting at the formation of necks between powders to final elimination of small pores at the end of the process...".
Ramming granules of pTex together under extreme pressure can still leave amorphous areas which absorb wax? I have always had this in mind:
"...Here is my understanding, based on the Crown Plastics (a big supplier to the ski industry) web site and the Dominator Zoom site.
Polyethelyne is extruded when it can be. Above a certain molecular weight, it doesn't get thin enough to flow. So it is sintered instead. From Crown, (http://crownplastics.com/recreation/) extruded DuraSurfE901 has a molecular weight of about 1/2 million, while sintered DuraSurf4001 has a molecular weight around 5 million.
Note that the sintered product has a percentage crystalline specification (53%).
The so-called "pores" are actually amorphous (non-crystalline) regions. They are not holes. From Dominator (http://www.dominatorwax.com/sites/default/files/dominator/wax-science-demystified.pdf)
I can entirely see why the representative stated '...pTex does not have pores...' but sintered material can have structure with voids at a microscopic level?
"These are the key concepts:
Wax can dissolve in the amorphous polyethylene regions as sugar dissolves in coffee. It does not go in the holes of the base as is stated in some manuals.
More heat and more time means that more wax dissolves in the polyethylene until you reach the maximum capacity.
When the base heats up it absorbs wax; when it cools down it expels wax.
Softer waxes have lower melting points and are smaller in size, so they dissolve more easily and penetrate deeper than harder waxes."
"The polyethylene base is made from hydrocarbon building blocks. If the blocks are connected linearly, the chains pack very closely and the polyethylene does not absorb wax. This is called a crystalline region.
If there is some branching the chains are not packed very closely and there is some room between them for wax to be absorbed. This is called an amorphous region."
"Both crystalline and amorphous regions are present in a base, around 50-50 in a competition grade base."
BUT....a while back I read this:
The UHMW-PE ski base contains both crystalline and amorphous regions and the relative percentage of each depends on the grade of material and manufacturing process. Karloff et al (2002) argue that the wax diffuses into the amorphous regions of the base. The driving force for this diffusion process is heat. However, there is some disagreement as to whether the wax does actually penetrate these amorphous regions. Kuzmin and Tinnesten (2008) argue that a pure dilution process is a more appropriate explanation and that the wax does not impregnate the crystalline regions of the base, although it may act as surface filler.
Wax and polyethylene are chemically virtually identical, simple hydrocarbons with a CH² repeat unit with wax having 20 - 40 units and PE having up to a few million, so it is quite likely that wax does diffuse into the surface of PE but if this was the case, PE Petrol containers would deteriorate if exposed to petrol, which is an even lower molecular weight hydrocarbon, even more likely to diffuse into the PE.
Bottom line is that skis get slower because the bases get micro scratched & hairy, waxing new skis will help to stop the bases getting scratched initially, and waxing older skis will fill in the scratches and stick the hairs back down.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
menatarms wrote:
I watched this video about ski tuning from Sidecut:
To be honest....it looks a real craft, that requires both skill and a fair amount of equipment and time, that I think for just one pair of skis just doesn't really look worth investing in for my needs. I think I'd be better off sending them to Jon or someone more local with experience of hand tuning skis maybe once or twice a year for the amount I ski, and just doing the waxing myself before each trip (and possibly mid trip). I have a little woodworking workshop in the garage that I don't spend anywhere near enough time in considering the machines I have, I don't want to add more to the pile of underused tools!
In the future if other family members decide they want their own skis too then maybe I'll invest in it but for now, it's to Jon or this local chap:
Was hoping someone here might know them or someone else good in the north east?
Nothing wrong with that video as such but it's very meticulous and precise. More than IMO is necessary.
For a start afaik if you skis are convex or concave that will be really noticeable but only worry about it when it happens (never happened in my family of 4 over several pairs of new and second hand skis)
Second, don't touch the base edge apart from a gentle deburring as per the piste office guide.
Third, do all side edges to a 3 degree angle. A sidewall removing tool is useful.
Edge tuning and basic waxing will get you a long way.
@tangowaggon, …agreed…but you can do simple things which are right and simple things which are wrong. That’s why I want to know a lot of background and get as much folk knowledge from people as possible.
I always thought that Polyethylene is quite UV sensitive; this is on low density PE but suggests it is quite so:
@valais2,
You are right that PE is sensitive to UV, but in reality, the amount of UV that a ski base sees is very unlikely to cause any problems unless the skis are left stored, with their bases in direct sunlight.
The UV that a ski sees when in use for just one week is probably more than they will see when stored for the rest of the year in the corner of the spare bedroom. Even with skis that are used all season, the UV exposure is the least of worries. Skis are really quite tough things
There really isn't anything in a ski base that can "dry out" during appropriate storage, if there is, it is probably something that shouldn't have been there in the first place.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I didn't read any of it, maybe the author found something new, but it has been known for many years that polymers are degraded by UV, one of my responsibilities at ICI was to evaluate new/alternative UV stabilisers in acrylic polymers by placing samples in accelerated weathering devices that exposed the samples to alternating high levels of humidity and UV, it's 23 years ago now but I think these devices could deliver one years worth of tropical weathering in one week.
After all it is free
After all it is free
@tangowaggon, interesting re weathering…a long long time ago friend of mine was working at Sussex University on measuring the photons released by a heated polymer, which allowed a short cycle time for predicting the decomposition rate of polymers - the more photons, the more free-radicals and the faster and more likely the breakdown in UV light. Could be done in minutes/hours not days/weeks, which was good….all this after he had written the programme for the experimental gear to filter out the big energy spikes from cosmic rays….
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