 Poster: A snowHead
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I am taking a guide for the day in Austria for some touring. I have generally bought lunch for the guide but it’s been some years and I am not sure the etiquette for tipping guides in Austria.
Any views please?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Food and beers (for quite a long time) last time in St Anton
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Yeah, I'd stick with paying for lunch. As an instructor I would expect (that is to say, it's normal, not that I would assume it) to have lunch paid for on an all-day lesson, beers if we stop for one at the end of the day, tips perhaps half a dozen times over the years (but I'm only part time); as an SCGB rep/leader for many years it was not uncommon, but depended very much on circumstances; leading SCGB/Ski Freshtracks holidays I think the groups made a collection two or three times, out of perhaps twenty or thirty trips. I've always found it awkward to be on the receiving end, TBH.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Chaletbeauroc wrote: |
| Yeah, I'd stick with paying for lunch. As an instructor I would expect (that is to say, it's normal, not that I would assume it) to have lunch paid for on an all-day lesson, beers if we stop for one at the end of the day, tips perhaps half a dozen times over the years (but I'm only part time); as an SCGB rep/leader for many years it was not uncommon, but depended very much on circumstances; leading SCGB/Ski Freshtracks holidays I think the groups made a collection two or three times, out of perhaps twenty or thirty trips. I've always found it awkward to be on the receiving end, TBH. |
On my most recent SCGB trip the rep coordinated a (voluntary) tip for the guides (after we'd paid for their lunch and all coffees on the slopes, and a post-ski drink most days). I think we all put in €50 for the week (which was the suggested amount). It wouldn't occur to me to tip an SCGB rep!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Buy your guide lunch and a drinks
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You are paying a few hundred euros for a few hours.
Tip on top? no.
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Thanks all
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| jmr59 wrote: |
On my most recent SCGB trip the rep coordinated a (voluntary) tip for the guides (after we'd paid for their lunch and all coffees on the slopes, and a post-ski drink most days). I think we all put in €50 for the week (which was the suggested amount). It wouldn't occur to me to tip an SCGB rep! |
Yes, it's considered part of the job to make sure guides are tipped and have their lunches paid for (if they're not offered by the restaurant) and that all restaurant and bar bills are paid with a tip where appropriate. When you have thirty or forty punters it's a lot simpler for all if someone coordinates it all, especially when you (rarely, I have to say) get someone who orders very little and wants to only pay for what they actually had.
The couple of times when a collection was done for the reps were where we'd gone above and beyond, so was a genuine thank you rather than any sort of expectation.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Gored wrote: |
You are paying a few hundred euros for a few hours.
Tip on top? no. |
You're paying someone who almost certainly earns a lot less than you, who does a dangerous and often difficult & highly seasonal job (& is possibly not getting a massive proportion of the few hundred euros you're paying). Of course you tip on top.
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| jmr59 wrote: |
| Gored wrote: |
You are paying a few hundred euros for a few hours.
Tip on top? no. |
You're paying someone who almost certainly earns a lot less than you, who does a dangerous and often difficult & highly seasonal job (& is possibly not getting a massive proportion of the few hundred euros you're paying). Of course you tip on top. |
^ this +1.
‘A few hundred euros’ is possibly the cost, but not necessarily the value.
..Nick
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I think it depends on the service?
Helpful and chatty, checks your progress if skinning up and gives tips on things like kick turns = tip
bugs off at his/her own pace and sees you at the top = no tip!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Not sure I'd be arsed tipping after 1 day unless truly exceptional. But if I've been with guide for several days or week, I only wouldn't tip if I was disappointed
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| jmr59 wrote: |
| Gored wrote: |
You are paying a few hundred euros for a few hours.
Tip on top? no. |
You're paying someone who almost certainly earns a lot less than you, who does a dangerous and often difficult & highly seasonal job (& is possibly not getting a massive proportion of the few hundred euros you're paying). Of course you tip on top. |
I never have tipped a guide. But I now think I should have and will do in future. Not because of your post (although I agree with the logic) but because of a chat on the Blister podcast with a guide.
The reason I haven't is that I have so much respect for guides as professionals and you just don't tip professionals do you? Plus if you are somewhere like France then there isn't really a tipping culture and that is an extra reason why it could be a little.... patronising? demeaning? But I suspect the financial constraints of the job mean that it would be welcome.
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You know it makes sense.
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| jedster wrote: |
The reason I haven't is that I have so much respect for guides as professionals and you just don't tip professionals do you? Plus if you are somewhere like France then there isn't really a tipping culture and that is an extra reason why it could be a little.... patronising? demeaning? But I suspect the financial constraints of the job mean that it would be welcome. |
I’m currently on a UCPA trip (my first) with an excellent guide. Excellent like: still finding us fresh tracks in fantastic snow four days after the last snowfall; giving meaningful technical advice and feedback; organizing two incredibly helpful rescue drills (one a simple individual search with one or two bags each, one a team search with (it turned out) four burials (he rôle-played the survivor, who wasn’t sure how big the group was)). Also generally friendly and chatty.
I asked the most experienced person in the group (a 55yo Swede who’s been on maybe 15 UCPA trips) about the UCPA tipping culture, & he said that it was very much appreciated. All my group seem keen to contribute.
There’s also a pot on the ski shop counter labelled ‘tips’, & I think another one on the bar. I suspect that the idea that ‘there isn’t really a tipping culture’ in France is an excuse made up by British tourists to be mean and not feel bad about themselves. (I accept that Switzerland may be different, not that I’ve ever been guided there.)
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
I suspect that the idea that ‘there isn’t really a tipping culture’ in France is an excuse made up by British tourists to be mean and not feel bad about themselves.
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Not sure that is fair - now that card payment is the norm, I find I generally don't even get the opportunity to add a tip in restaurants in France. Just an example.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@jedster, I generally just leave a bunch of change if I have some, anything from 2-5 Euros or CHF. In both countries the tip is taken as a welcome thank you, not expected, and they're not going to think you're a skinflint if you leave a small tip or none at all. The French word for tip is 'pourboire' meaning 'for a drink' like you might buy one for the barman in a pub, so the amount might reasonably be expected to reflect that.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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a 2€ tip for an Alpine guide is insulting and absurd
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| red 27 wrote: |
| a 2€ tip for an Alpine guide is insulting and absurd |
I don't think the loose change comment from ChaletB was meant in relation to the guide...
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@Bergmeister, Yes, I think @red 27 hasn't been following the thread.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Chaletbeauroc wrote: |
| @jedster, I generally just leave a bunch of change if I have some, anything from 2-5 Euros or CHF. In both countries the tip is taken as a welcome thank you, not expected, and they're not going to think you're a skinflint if you leave a small tip or none at all. The French word for tip is 'pourboire' meaning 'for a drink' like you might buy one for the barman in a pub, so the amount might reasonably be expected to reflect that. |
Yes that’s what I would do too although these days I often have no change on me. My point was just the French don’t have much of a tipping culture - generally not expected, especially if you are paying the owner.
But as I said above, I’m thinking differently about guides now.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Some bad avalanche karma in this thread!
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| Matrix wrote: |
| I am taking a guide for the day in Austria for some touring. |
That's nice of you.
Personally I wouldn't expect a guide to tip me but if they feel the need, why not, all contributions gratefully accepted in these difficult times.
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quis ducet ipsos duces?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| jmr59 wrote: |
| quis ducet ipsos duces? |
Brown Owl. wasn't it?
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@Gored, Of which your guide might get 30% if employed by a Ski/Mountain School. The school does pay the employers contributions to Pension, Insurance etc on top but the guide is not earning enough to live on, unless they own the Ski School too.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@RedandWhiteFlachau, is it as bad as that! I am surprised. (I normally hire a guide directly)
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
Of which your guide might get 30% if employed by a Ski/Mountain School
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I wonder if that's true also in France? I get the impression that ski schools in France tend to be run as "cooperatives" and the instructors do reasonably well. And in somewhere like Chamonix there is a distinct structure for guides?
I've not skied in the USA but have read (here on Snowheads) that there the instructors do very badly as the "resort" pockets a lot of the the income.
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| snowball wrote: |
| @RedandWhiteFlachau, is it as bad as that! I am surprised. (I normally hire a guide directly) |
It depends what you want, but having done the sums, it is actually worse. For example, a one day session booked through a ski school. with a private guide or instructor will cost you about €300 here in Flachau. That's for 1 person. Extra folks are €36 each. So for a group of 5 (for simple maths) that's €480 for the day. That'll buy you a Day's lift accessed Off-Piste or "Il Classico" Piste skiing to smash around the whole of Snow Space. The guide will be paid the local rate of €15 per hour plus employers contributions to aforementioned Pension, Social Security and Insurance. So, the Ski school banks the other €350 or so.
If I do the same, or a Day's Touring as private booking, then I'd charge you €300-€500 plus expenses depending on the route and duration.
To answer the North America question posed earlier, my daughter works in Whistler. Her American clients tip about 25% of what they've paid the ski school, which usually doubles her daily pay...Go figure!!
BLUF. If you're booking directly with a qualified guide, then tips will be factored into the invoice and I wouldn't expect one. If you've gone through a ski school then they're on minimum wage, so tips gratefully received.
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You know it makes sense.
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I don’t know anyone who would not tip a guide. The only exception is a guide who is obviously lazy, uncaring and going through the motions. I have only experienced that once in decades of taking guides.
Frankly in my view of you see it as a big expense to tip 30 or so each for a good day of guiding, maybe you can’t really afford it in the first place.
These guys work hard (I know personally) to give you a good experience and keep you safe.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@RedandWhiteFlachau, €15 an hour? Do you mean for a mountain guide (as in qualified?)? That can't be right?
I can barely imagine any worker in a ski resort getting only €15 an hour
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Poster: A snowHead
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| 8611 wrote: |
@RedandWhiteFlachau
I can barely imagine any worker in a ski resort getting only €15 an hour |
You may be surprised, most French, restaurant, lift ops and even Pisteurs make less!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Jesus that's terrible. All the more so since they're serving largely the privileged.
I could see that being paid to young seasonal ski bum type workers, but would have hoped people who dedicate their lives to the mountains and other people enjoying them safely would be better treated. Aren't some of these resorts co-operatives for the local community or am I being terribly naive?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Idris wrote: |
| 8611 wrote: |
| €15 an hour? Do you mean for a mountain guide (as in qualified?)? That can't be right? |
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I tend to agree. Of course I'm more used to Swiss rates, but even an unqualified i(i.e. without the patent) instructor here would be getting double that.
| Idris wrote: |
| 8611 wrote: |
I can barely imagine any worker in a ski resort getting only €15 an hour |
You may be surprised, most French, restaurant, lift ops and even Pisteurs make less! |
It's quite difficult to imagine, I agree, especially if, like me, you've come to skiing later in life after a corporate career. I don't think anyone on the Swiss side would be getting as little as that, but even so one needs to be careful not to offend.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| zikomo wrote: |
| I don’t know anyone who would not tip a guide. The only exception is a guide who is obviously lazy, uncaring and going through the motions. I have only experienced that once in decades of taking guides. |
When I was leading holidays for SCGB we always got to see the feedback from punters, on ourselves and any guides or instructors used. There was one Guide in particular in Engelberg who used to get either extremely positive or quite negative reviews, and one time I asked him if he could think why that was. He shrugged and said basically, if the punters are solely focussed on getting down the mountain and not prepared to stop and enjoy the view he will stop really trying and just give them that.
The first time I skiied with him (as a punter myself) we were half way down Galtiberg when a Steinadler swooped quite close to us and stuck around for a few minutes while he told us all about it - and it's stuck in my memory ever since. He mentioned this as an example of something that some people would just not be bothered about and you know I think I saw his point.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Chaletbeauroc wrote: |
| Idris wrote: |
| 8611 wrote: |
| €15 an hour? Do you mean for a mountain guide (as in qualified?)? That can't be right? |
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I tend to agree. Of course I'm more used to Swiss rates, but even an unqualified i(i.e. without the patent) instructor here would be getting double that.
| Idris wrote: |
| 8611 wrote: |
I can barely imagine any worker in a ski resort getting only €15 an hour |
You may be surprised, most French, restaurant, lift ops and even Pisteurs make less! |
It's quite difficult to imagine, I agree, especially if, like me, you've come to skiing later in life after a corporate career. I don't think anyone on the Swiss side would be getting as little as that, but even so one needs to be careful not to offend. |
Swiss minimum wage (in Valais) is 4500CHF per month, it's barely €1000 in France.
Last year when I worked for a Town hall run ski hill I made just under €10 an hour, made €1800 a month due to the huge number of hours I did (never made any overtime pay due to creative accounting) - I currently make a little more an hour, but only €1600 a month, 4,1/2 days a week (4 one week 5 the next) on a 9+ hour (work hours, actual is over 10, 1/2) shift!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@Idris, do you get any "benefits in kind", such as accommodation?
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@8611, @pam w, Yes I did mean €15 an hour. The current minimum wage in Austria is €1500 per month, so for a 36 hour week, the Ski Instructors are above that. Yes to BIK. Our junior instructors get to share an apartment at €150 pcm each, their season pass, health insurance et al on top of wages. But our Freelancers (like me), just get the hourly rate.
@8611, If you are specifically hiring an ISIA Level 4 or IFMGA then the rates are better. As I said earlier, in the €3-500 bracket per day for non-technical ascents or twice that for a group using tech gear. But that is not what the majority of our readers do.
The better half works for a more specialist ski company working with young people with learning difficulties. Her hourly rate is also €15. I'm surprised that folks think we're earning big bucks. When I Freelance in the UK (Climbing, walking biking etc), the average daily rate is £150, out of which I PAYE and pay NIC. So about the same.
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http://www.guides-montagne.org/pages/fmga?language=en This suggests that the majority of French guides are lone free-lancers and most of the rest self-employed members of groups etc. So not getting ripped off too badly, and their gross pay will be what customers pay them. But they will have to find their own accommodation and normal living expenses out of that. I suppose it's akin to being a sailing instructor - Yachtmaster Instructor level. People do it for love, not money. If they're paid to do yacht deliveries it's 24 hours a day. OK for young singles - and the young instructors in Austria on better than the minimum wage, plus cheap accommodation and health insurance etc paid are doing quite well, compared to the kids who used to do the jobs in catered chalets, pre-Brexit.
And they were doing a lot better than their contemporaries working in shops in the UK.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@RedandWhiteFlachau, sorry by guide I meant off piste guide whom (I assume) are qualified mountain guides, would do alpine stuff in Summer. Although sometimes when I've booked an off piste guide the office has told me oh you're in luck this guy is also a mountain guide, so maybe it doesn't always mean that. In Gastein last year the rate was €560 for a day (which I thought was a lot from previous outings).
Never thought guides would make big bucks but at least thought they'd be reasonably paid for the day they were working, but would only expect to work a few days a week and during a short season (so poor annual salary overall). The idea of taking people off-piste at potential risk to themselves for €15 an hour is frankly baffing.
All the more reason those of us who earn far more doing no risk jobs to properly pay for the service.
PS how is Flachau skiing, hoping to bring the kids there or Zauchensee at some point?
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Really it's almost like the Junior Doctors farce, in that many starting out earn a pittance, no matter that for many it's their vocation and they love what they do.
I first started using guides back in 1997 and I've kept in contact with two of them as we tend to see and do stuff together in the inter-season, plus I do the website and hosting and email setup for one of them.
Remember these guys are UIAGM and work throughout the summer as well climbing many of the classic peaks, so a good income stream, and they will work Inter-Season as well if the work is there.
One of them was one of the early pioneers of taking clients further afield as well as skiing in the Summer months in Chile / Argentina as well as running a heli operation in Sweden till the end of June.
Both of these guys have developed a very good income!
As for tipping, one of them for the last couple of years has worked for three months with Ice Axe expeditions down to the Antarctic and the Americans tip big time compared to the Europeans.
And that is the crux, in that they've developed their client base to the stage where they can charge well above average guide rates.
Away from those two UIAGM guides my neighbour is ESF and he is also a guide in that he too has developed a client base of privates and I know currently he's working in Val D'Isere this week with a group, and I see him with clients in various other places, and there is another one I know well who is similar, except in the Summer he goes back to Chile and is a parapont instructor as well.
They too both live very well, helped by a nice big Chalet with the bottom half they rent out.
It does seem that there is a definite hierarchy here with the ESF in that the older guard always seem to have work, so sometimes I see them working with beginners when they don't have privates.
Also speaking English is a definite plus as for instance with all the Brit school children they get called in to work.
So yes young aspirants / recently qualified guides/instructors do earn a pittance as they have to seek work from bureaus and schools but if they manage themselves well they can develop a very good lifestyle.
And back to the subject of tips we used to club together beforehand and a mate would buy him a lovely coffee table book about mountains etc that we'd all sign as a momento of the trip.
But again if you can, it's so much better to use the same guide(s) year in year out.
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