 Poster: A snowHead
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@abc, 30% where the bar was put down by someone else and 70% it wasn't (how i read it) or the other way around?
Either way feels like quite a lot and also quite reassuring no one objected to you doing it.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| abc wrote: |
Each time I got on a chair, I wait to see if anyone else brings the bar down. My sampling yielded approximately 30%.
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Erm I think you've just evidenced what we are saying that the majority of American experienced skiers would not bring the bar down out of choice.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| abc wrote: |
Each time I got on a chair, I wait to see if anyone else brings the bar down. My sampling yielded approximately 30%.
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Erm I think you've just evidenced what we are saying that the majority of American experienced skiers would not bring the bar down out of choice. |
Thats what i thought initially but maybe @abc, point was more, they wouldn't object if you did?
I can also see how those (few?) who do object could stick in people's mind more and skew peoples impressions.
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Yeah sure, few in practice object. But abc hasn't explained the American psyche that would have 70% of people not use a safety feature easily available.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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abc, did your survey suggest any gender difference in the propensity to bring the bar down?
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The snow is supposed to be good, but when looking at the lines on a powder day, the cost of lift passes, the cost and time to get there, nutters not wanting to utilise the safety bar, and me not owning an AR15.....I'm out.
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We nearly did a last minute 10 day trip to the US, years ago, but the cost of lift passes was the last straw - we did a last minute chalet in Courchevel 1650 instead. Because my OH was not very well and flights were silly prices we drove down and planned to spend the following week exploring a bit. Lovely weather - wall to wall sun, early January, snow pretty hard and thin and often stony in 3 Valleys. Meandered back, diverted to Crest Voland on a whim, skied over to Saisies and found better snow than the 3V and coffee at half the price. Bought an apartment - so it turned out quite expensive after all! 
I think you need to be a better skier than I am to get the best out of the US destinations.
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| Quote: |
I think you need to be a better skier than I am to get the best out of the US destinations.
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You're surely putting yourself down here @pam w  Anybody who enjoys cruising runs (of whatever gradient) would absolutely love the reliable snow and packed powder groomers from Colorado to California etc - plus BC and Alberta in Canada too.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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+1. Come over and do a road trip; the fuel savings will balance the expensive lift costs.
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So conclusion is there's less use of the bar but in fairness little objection if someone does want to lower it?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I guess its a risk based decision, whilst us Europeans wouldn't want to risk falling off a chairlift, the Yanks don't see that as a big risk, compared to getting gunned down by some nutter with an assault rifle for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I assumed the bar not coming down was to facilitate rapid access to the Glock under the shoulder in case there was suddenly an armed threat to your family traveling on the chair. Got to be prepared folks.
@pam w, I refuse to believe I'm a better skier than you and I adore Banff. Go and try it. For me it is the ability to go anywhere I can see whatever the terrain rather than sticking to perfect groomers - but these are also available, and usually very wide and comfortable. It's an experience.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| ... psyche that would have 70% of people not use a safety feature easily available. |
In the UK they actually had to introduce laws to force people to use a safety feature easily available - the car seat belt.
"Car manufacturers have had to install seatbelts since 1965 but the law requiring drivers to wear them did not come in to
force for another 18 years. In 1991 the law changed again making it a legal requirement for adults to wear seatbelts
in the back of cars." source
| Quote: |
| So conclusion is there's less use of the bar but in fairness little objection if someone does want to lower it? |
Sounds right. I've never had anyone object. Or smoke.
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You know it makes sense.
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In 1990 nobody had helmets and the bar went down 70% of rides, 2023 we all have helmets and the bar goes down 100% of the time. Mainly because we are not stupid, clueless kids any more.....for my little group anyway. I think one of the chairs in soldeau in Andorra was the reason the bar came down mid ride and never ever failed to come down again for us!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I did a fantastic road trip in the States as a student - rented a Hertz car for $99 a month, drove with a law student from my graduate dorm from Cambridge Mass. to Colorado and back through the deep South. Mostly staying with other students, right off the tourist trail. Drove through Niagara at 1 am, in a snowstorm, didn't bother with the Falls. Went out shooting squirrels (well, I shot AT squirrels but didn't hit any) in Selma, Alabama (where I was told if we were stopped by police I had to do all the talking, as though I was driving a Yankee car, I clearly wan't a Yankee) and then ate them with grits and gravy for breakfast in Selma Alabama. Listened to local radio stations through hundreds of miles of Not A Lot. Unforgettable.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
So conclusion is there's less use of the bar but in fairness little objection if someone does want to lower it?
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That's my experience. Just be aware that some won't be expecting the bar to come down so a polite "heads up, bar coming down" to make sure they are ready is polite.
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Come over and do a road trip; the fuel savings will balance the expensive lift costs.
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Post COVID Canada car hire prices were crazy. Maybe they've gone down a bit and/or it's more affordable in USA. Likes of epic and Ikon pass offer insane value (cheaper than a season pass at the big euro resorts for unlimited skiing across some of the best n American resorts), and definitely fit well with a road trip style holiday. Personally I'm not sure it's the best option unless you have lots of time, as you can end up spending as much time driving as skiing and arguably don't see the best of any of the resorts in just a day or two.
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For me it is the ability to go anywhere I can see whatever the terrain rather than sticking to perfect groomers - but these are also available, and usually very wide and comfortable. It's an experience.
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Absolutely agree. However, if someone wants lots of groomed pistes and the sense of travel between villages and different mountains Europe is unbeatable.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I've done a bit of off piste skiing (had some lessons in Saisies and also did a week in Les Deux Alpes with easiski, which ended with my less-than-epic descent of very old snow in La Grave. But I was struggling with it then, with my very dodgy knee (spent every evening briefing sitting with my foot up, knee covered in ice) and I'm now truly past it with significant degree of heart failure as well! But I count myself lucky to be able to do a bit of unambitious piste cruising.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| Yeah sure, few in practice object. But abc hasn't explained the American psyche that would have 70% of people not use a safety feature easily available. |
See my post above.
It’s a “safety” feature that’s so minor that I don’t care either way. I’ve been skiing since the 80’s, when there were no such things as “safety bars” for decades. I never worried about it then. Children and adults rode chair lifts “safely” all those times. Why should I suddenly worry about it now? Just because it’s fashionable in Europe?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| pam w wrote: |
| abc, did your survey suggest any gender difference in the propensity to bring the bar down? |
No.
The biggest difference is parents. The majority of people bringing the bar down are parents with their children.
Though occasionally, older skiers would do that so they can rest their feet on the foot rest. On that note, one interesting observation, safety bars without footrest? Nobody ever brought it down. I was the only one who brought it down. And it’s only because I wanted to carry out my “experiment”!
It’s pretty clear as far as American skiers are concern, “safety bar” doesn’t change their safety perception.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| @abc, at least four posters on this thread have not been theorising, but speaking from experience. And their experience differs from yours. |
There weren’t theorizing the behavior (“experience”). They were theorizing the “American psychic” which they only had a brief encounter with, and little true experience.
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| abc wrote: |
| Hurtle wrote: |
| @abc, at least four posters on this thread have not been theorising, but speaking from experience. And their experience differs from yours. |
There weren’t theorizing the behavior (“experience”). They were theorizing the “American psychic” which they only had a brief encounter with, and little true experience. |
Absolutely rubbish, here's just one example and there are more: "In the US, usage is far less common, and in particular, in the Pacific Northwest where I live. There, usage is minimal except when there’s kids on the chair."
Of course, if all you are NOW arguing is that people don't object to a raised bar being lowered, that's a different matter, but the argument was wider than that to begin with, to cover general indifference to a raised bar.
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To be fair to ABC, I think there have been a few derogatory comments towards our American friends, which I certainly don't agree with, and which are lazy and tbh boring.
That being said, I think they were in jest and would be similar to an American taking the wee wee out of our bad teeth/bad food etc stereotype.
I'm not a fan of the jokes about guns, myself. It's a serious issue and a contentious and sensitive subject.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| abc wrote: |
| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| Yeah sure, few in practice object. But abc hasn't explained the American psyche that would have 70% of people not use a safety feature easily available. |
See my post above.
It’s a “safety” feature that’s so minor that I don’t care either way. I’ve been skiing since the 80’s, when there were no such things as “safety bars” for decades. I never worried about it then. Children and adults rode chair lifts “safely” all those times. Why should I suddenly worry about it now? Just because it’s fashionable in Europe? |
I don't understand why you wouldn't lower the bar. What does it cost you to lower it? It's only minor until something goes wrong. It could literally save your life.
The person who died obviously thought it was minor but had they taken the small step of lowering the bar, they'd still be alive and their family wouldn't have lost someone so needlessly.
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| phil_w wrote: |
| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| ... psyche that would have 70% of people not use a safety feature easily available. |
In the UK they actually had to introduce laws to force people to use a safety feature easily available - the car seat belt.
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In the US a common objection to the seatbelt laws was what if you crashed into water and couldn't release it. Other variants had people driving off a cliff and being unable to be flung free.
Still US reticence re wearing seatbelts appatently accelerated airbag development.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| abc wrote: |
| I’ve been skiing since the 80’s, when there were no such things as “safety bars” for decades. I never worried about it then. Children and adults rode chair lifts “safely” all those times. Why should I suddenly worry about it now? Just because it’s fashionable in Europe? |
I have been skiing since the 80s too (I'll neglect a school trip in the 60s). I can't recall a chair without a safety bar. If you are not bothered what is "fashionable" in Europe, why come here? This is a European forum, after all.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| achilles wrote: |
| abc wrote: |
| I’ve been skiing since the 80’s, when there were no such things as “safety bars” for decades. I never worried about it then. Children and adults rode chair lifts “safely” all those times. Why should I suddenly worry about it now? Just because it’s fashionable in Europe? |
I have been skiing since the 80s too (I'll neglect a school trip in the 60s). I can't recall a chair without a safety bar. If you are not bothered what is "fashionable" in Europe, why come here? This is a European forum, after all. |
I skied in Europe. And will continue to do so. That’s got nothing to do with what fashionable in Europe. It’s the terrain.
If you’re suggesting this forum is for people to talk about skiing in Europe but not necessarily skiing itself. Then perhaps you’re right. I should just ski in Europe but not post on a British forum.
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| Ryunis wrote: |
The person who died obviously thought it was minor but had they taken the small step of lowering the bar, they'd still be alive and their family wouldn't have lost someone so needlessly. |
The person who died falling off the chair was horsing about on the chair “trying to brush the snow off the chair”!
That’s so defied of common sense that sounds more like Darwinism is at play! What’s next, an example of someone standing up on the chair and falling off and then be used as an example of “safety bar” would have prevented that???
The standard design of chairs in ski lift are plenty more than safe enough as long as people just SIT on it. Adding the safety bar is so minor an improvement that I personally felt totally indifferent.
I will bring up my favorite analogy. Why are people not wearing helmets while in a car? Even with all the other safety features already in the car, that helmet could potentially save your life in some particularly unusual type of accidents. About as likely as chairlift safety bars, I dare say.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
I have been skiing since the 80s too (I'll neglect a school trip in the 60s). I can't recall a chair without a safety bar
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Same here, @achilles. Nothing new about safety bars.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Never mind the bar saving your life, it can save your dignity!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| abc wrote: |
….
I will bring up my favorite analogy. Why are people not wearing helmets while in a car? Even with all the other safety features already in the car, that helmet could potentially save your life in some particularly unusual type of accidents. About as likely as chairlift safety bars, I dare say. |
Assuming you have a car, and it is new enough to have airbags, or you ride in one, do you put on the seatbelt? If so, why?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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This is so ridiculous. Put the bar down. It is safer, more comfortable and no effort at all. Anyone who does not do so is an idiot more scared of looking "silly" in front of others than concerned with their own (and others) safety and comfort. I have skied in the states, seen this phenomenon and it is nuts. I have politely asked others before lowering the bar and had the occasional complaint which I dealt with quite forcefully. It is completely beyond the pale to try and prevent someone who wants to from pulling down the safety bar.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I too am skiing since the 80s and there were always bars on the chairs, I would hate riding a long chair lift with the bar up, I would feel my skis were pulling me off the lift, ( they wouldn't but I have that idea) .
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Sod the bar; it's the footrests I need!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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It is a ridiculous argument but @abc has a valid point about helmets in cars. Racing drivers wear them and head injuries in RTAs do cause morbidity and mortality. I've used the same argument before if berated for not wearing a life jacket on the boat (none of us wears one routinely though we do if it's rough and always in fog). I don't doubt it would be safer, as would a helmet in a car, but we all make decisions about safety all the time which change with time and perception - few of us are rational and consistent. For a lone rider, whether to bring the bar down is up to them. To object to another doing it is indeed definitely beyond the pale. I wonder if there would be a correlation, in a thorough survey, between chairlift bar behaviour and voting? I bet there would..... 
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The helmet analogy doesn't even come close to describing the risk here, yes I've worn one in a competition car.
The safety bar on a chairlift is equivalent to having, collectively and successively, equipment maintenance as equal in both forms of transport, tyre grip, driver competence, anti lock brakes etc, all to prevent the accident from starting to take place primarily.
A helmet is for when all of these elements have ultimately failed.
Once you fall off that chair, literally all bets are off. It's much easier not to fall off the chair, deployed bar is the most effective all encompassing method.
Nowadays, head protection in cars is built in with curtain airbags etc. Again only used when the accident is happening.
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Like most safety equipment
debates, helmets in cars comes down to the balance between risk v effectivness v (in)convenience. For road use the risk (mitigated by seat belts/airbag/crumple zone/etc) doesn't outweigh the inconvenience; in a race car the risk of accident is far higher and it does. Would you wear protective clothing just to go downstairs at home? Many people fall down stairs every year but no, that would be too inconvenient.
So where is the inconvenience in putting a chairlift safety bar down that outweight possible death? ...other than it interfering with your stubbornness to accept its a dumb thing not to do.
I'm yet to hear one valid reason for not doing it. Excuses like, I've never fallen off yet, I can on sit on a chair, I've always done it, etc don't cut it! It's just plain dumb but some people won't accept it until they're stood at the pearly gates, being asked how they got there.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@adithorp, improves the gene pool though
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The usual anti-safety argument about "We've done it for decades and we're still here" (seatbelts, safety bars, smoking, drinking and driving) tends to ignore those who aren't still here.
Detachable lifts are now faster, meaning there will be more of a jerk when there is an emergency stop for someone falling at the bottom.
The frankly ridiculous analogy to helmets in passenger cars (not racing cars) has been dealt with above.
I recently saw a video (on here?) of a collection of motorists many years ago on a news report furiously objecting to the concept of a breathalyser.
It's amazing how some people don't like their existing way of life challenged and react in such a hostile manner.
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FAQ
