 Poster: A snowHead
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The pertinent and defining part of wearing a helmet is that it will never stop you crashing anything, car, skis, motorcycle, plane etc among them.
It's really just the end of the line after everything else has failed.
Wondering if this subject, the fatality, was wondering if there was an airbag ready to be deployed as he plummeted, probably not much time to resolve those thoughts 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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For road use the risk (mitigated by seat belts/airbag/crumple zone/etc) doesn't outweigh the inconvenience
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That's my verdict on a life jacket, some of the time. Lots of considerations go into that decision, the skill, experience and cool head of the helm being a paramount one. It is vanishingly rare for a cruising sailor to fall off the boat and drown. It does happen, but then people do die of head injuries in car crashes. I'm willing to take the risk in both situations, though I've driven with some people (especially the ones who drive too close to the car in front, which is utterly pointless) ) which would have me reaching for a helmet if there was one to hand). We've been told off for mentioning guns but there are parallels...... "rugged individualism" is a polite way to describe the mentality that asserts its rights to ride the chairlift with no bar. It's a risk that we European skiers find bizarre, but there are probably things we do which many Americans would find equally risky.
Even before the days of airbags, crumple zones etc, when death and destruction on the roads was FAR more prevalent than today, people didn't wear helmets in cars. And pregnant women weren't told to avoid booze and unpasteurised cheese. And the Swallows and Amazons never wore buoyancy aids and helmets, as todays little sailors do. Even when buoyancy aids became ubiquitous, people would have found it bizarre to see a child in an Optimist dinghy wearing a helmet.
We are much more safety conscious, in most ways, now. We think immortality is a human right.  And all this discussion and indignation has been sparked by one report of a chairlift death in the States. They are probably at least as rare as death from head injury in a car crash - it's not an entirely ridiculous analogy. I don't remember previous reports of deaths from falling off chairlifts. Some people have been hoisted by their backpacks etc - and one child did die a few years ago. But it wasn't a safety bar issue.
We just need something to argue about.... 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@pam w, That's half the point though, different opinions can make for entertaining conversations.
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Oh sure - and I'm quite happy to join in. But people do get very cross and indignant sometimes. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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[quote="pam w"]
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It's a risk that we European skiers find bizarre, but there are probably things we do which many Americans would find equally risky.
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Yep like let our children look at statues
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| adithorp wrote: |
So where is the inconvenience in putting a chairlift safety bar down that outweight possible death? |
Having to actually lowering it IS the inconvenience!
How many people died falling off stairs? Compare to how many people died falling off chairlifts? Yet we don’t use safety bars on stairs (aka handrails). Isn’t that dumb?
If you can’t understand having to do something that’s pretty useless. You’re the one who’s dumb!
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...other than it interfering with your stubbornness to accept its a dumb thing not to do.
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When it’s clearly you are the dumb one that waste energy to do something that’s next to pointless.
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@abc, just another example to support the view that, in the USA, life is cheap.
Go ahead and pointlessly troll me about that. If it livens up another dull day for you, my time will have been well spent.
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| abc wrote: |
Having to actually lowering it IS the inconvenience!
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Wait what?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| abc wrote: |
Yet we don’t use safety bars on stairs (aka handrails). Isn’t that dumb?
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Actually in some UK workplaces it is now mandatory to use the handrail on stairs, and I know people have been reprimanded for not doing so, just saying....
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[quote="abc"]Yet we don’t use safety bars on stairs (aka handrails). Isn’t that dumb? /quote]
When I worked for one of the UK energy companies it was a breach of the Safety policy to walk up or down stairs without using the handrail, to the extent that if both hands were full you had to use the lift (elevator)! So yes it is dumb, just like not using the safety bar on a chairlift.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| pam w wrote: |
| ... "rugged individualism" is a polite way to describe the mentality that asserts its rights to ride the chairlift with no bar. |
Possibly, but the UK also has vaccine deniers and Britain Trump voters, whose attitudes are hard to differentiate from the caricature of Americans people who've never really been there seem to delight in promulgating.
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| ... We just need something to argue about.... |
The US stats for chair lift safety were posted pages back.
Post some statistics demonstrating that European lifts are safer, if that's the argument people are trying to make.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I'm not aware of any European chairlift deaths this season. I am aware of at least 2 US ones. @abc is amply demonstrating the US psyche in question for those of us that haven't met many Americans. And it's visible in all sorts of things like "yeah I'll just move this cone in the parking lot because it's my right to park my unnecessarily big dually truck here" regardless of how difficult it makes things for other traffic and whether it stops fire engine access.
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I’m not sure it makes sense to generalize about a US American psyche for the reason given above that many Brits were just as resistant to the ‘inconvenience’ of wearing seatbelts. (I suspect that in both cases what’s really perceived as ‘inconvenient’ is being or feeling told to do something.)
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| tarrantd wrote: |
When I worked for one of the UK energy companies it was a breach of the Safety policy to walk up or down stairs without using the handrail, to the extent that if both hands were full you had to use the lift (elevator)! So yes it is dumb, just like not using the safety bar on a chairlift. |
I wonder if we've worked at the same energy company. This was part of my site induction, and it was enforced.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| DaddyLouLou wrote: |
| I wonder if we've worked at the same energy company. This was part of my site induction, and it was enforced. |
Completely off-topic, but how? Did people get disciplined for walking up a flight of stairs without holding the handrail?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| adithorp wrote: |
Like most safety equipment
debates, helmets in cars comes down to the balance between risk v effectivness v (in)convenience. For road use the risk (mitigated by seat belts/airbag/crumple zone/etc) doesn't outweigh the inconvenience;
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Helmets in cars are far more convenient than they are on bicycles or on skis you can just leave them in the car.
Probably more people killed in cars than on skis or bikes as well·
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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It is usually compared by injury/fatality over distance travelled, bikes are definitely worse than cars in that respect. I'm not sure how it compares if you make the comparison using time duration instead of distance.
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| jmr59 wrote: |
| DaddyLouLou wrote: |
| I wonder if we've worked at the same energy company. This was part of my site induction, and it was enforced. |
Completely off-topic, but how? Did people get disciplined for walking up a flight of stairs without holding the handrail? |
If we're talking about Sizewell B (EDF owned) then yes.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Glosterwolf wrote: |
| It is usually compared by injury/fatality over distance travelled, bikes are definitely worse than cars in that respect. I'm not sure how it compares if you make the comparison using time duration instead of distance. |
I'm talking absolute numbers, most people will spend far more time in a car than on a bike or on skis for any individual the risk will vary but for the population we should enforce helmets in cars before elsewhere and it's completely convenient as you can leave them in the car.
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Risk assessment can be compared in numerous different ways and depending on what risk you are looking at it can be more sensible done in one way or another . So from a personal basis if helmets offer similar protection from death which they may or may not do in different situations I am at a risk from death in a year that is greater in a car than on skis largely because I drive more than I ski or I was when I looked up the stats several years ago. It makes more sense for me to wear a helmet all the time in a car than on skis though I don't do this.
That I don't is probably peer group pressure rather than the logic of risk, most of my peers ski with helmets but don't drive with them.
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| T Bar wrote: |
Probably more people killed in cars than on skis or bikes as well· |
Probably even more people killed by cars.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Hurtle, I always thought there was a clue in the name
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| ski3 wrote: |
Skiing with helmet and driving a closed car are just in no way comparative.
A car you are effectively driving around inside the whole protection that offers. Seat belt and airbag use attempt to stop you from hitting the inside of that protection "casing" .
Skiing in helmet, you are wearing the primary and concluding impact protection on your head. The two are not comparable.
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Of course they are comparable, they are both activities that I participate in that have measurable mortality from trauma much of which is head trauma . The degree of protection that a helmet offers is uncertain in both cases. But the activity that is statistically more dangerous to me on an annualised basis is driving.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Comparable only in distance travelled.
Kinetic, no, not at all.
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| ski3 wrote: |
Comparable only in distance travelled.
Kinetic, no, not at all. |
It would appear that in motor sport with high kinetics it is thought that helmets afford protection, why they should not do in ordinary cars is beyond me.
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You know it makes sense.
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Are most US lifts slow old things, but in Europe they are high speed?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| T Bar wrote: |
| It would appear that in motor sport with high kinetics it is thought that helmets afford protection, why they should not do in ordinary cars is beyond me. |
I'm not sure it would be any value added having a helmet + airbag. Also, having a helmet impacts slightly visibility.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@Frosty the Snowman, good question, although I think it’s the height you fall from that matters with regards to the injuries you would likely endure (if you fall off).
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| snowyc wrote: |
| T Bar wrote: |
| It would appear that in motor sport with high kinetics it is thought that helmets afford protection, why they should not do in ordinary cars is beyond me. |
I'm not sure it would be any value added having a helmet + airbag. Also, having a helmet impacts slightly visibility. |
Motorsport vehicles have very high levels of protection but they deem a helmet useful. . A helmet and goggles affect visibility even more on skis where you do not have the added benefit of mirrors.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| T Bar wrote: |
| Motorsport vehicles have very high levels of protection but they deem a helmet useful. . A helmet and goggles affect visibility even more on skis where you do not have the added benefit of mirrors. |
But they don't have airbags in motorsports, do they? Also your requirement regarding visibility in motorsports is different, same goes regarding you capability of driving in challenging conditions. First time I tried snowboarding 20yrs ago I was too cool to use a helmet and I ran to the rental shop after first try lucky that I could still carry on snowboarding. The thing that is missing here is that we are comparing normal day life/driving vs sport. We don't use helmets at home even though they could add some protection.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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How does a debate about using the chairlift safety bar morph into one about helmets!
Anyway the safety bar is there for a reason. It is no effort or inconvenience to use it. Indeed using it increases comfort - at least for most people most of the time (I know a few chairs there this is definitely NOT the case lol). In this case it is to guard against a low probability but high consequence circumstance.
Any fool who wants to ignore the safety bar so they look cool is welcome to do so. But if you are on a lift with me or my children, the bar is coming down. I will ask politely, but if you do not respond in the affirmative the bar will be coming down regardless.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| zikomo wrote: |
| How does a debate about using the chairlift safety bar morph into one about helmets! |
The thread is already 4 pages long so it's good that it's still about safety
| zikomo wrote: |
| Anyway the safety bar is there for a reason. It is no effort or inconvenience to use it. Indeed using it increases comfort - at least for most people most of the time (I know a few chairs there this is definitely NOT the case lol). In this case it is to guard against a low probability but high consequence circumstance. |
I guess it's the same with everything, people in many countries ignore speed limits (e.g.italy).
In the UK the left lane is what's ignored most often on roads.
Different countries/culture mean different ignorance so a bit surprised someone calling out that issue being related to US psycho.
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| snowyc wrote: |
| T Bar wrote: |
| Motorsport vehicles have very high levels of protection but they deem a helmet useful. . A helmet and goggles affect visibility even more on skis where you do not have the added benefit of mirrors. |
But they don't have airbags in motorsports, do they? Also your requirement regarding visibility in motorsports is different, same goes regarding you capability of driving in challenging conditions. First time I tried snowboarding 20yrs ago I was too cool to use a helmet and I ran to the rental shop after first try lucky that I could still carry on snowboarding. The thing that is missing here is that we are comparing normal day life/driving vs sport. We don't use helmets at home even though they could add some protection. |
My point is purely from a rational point of view I should wear a helmet when driving as opposed to skiing looking at my risk from both activities on an annualised basis. Air bags may help but they do not obviate the need for further preventative methods anymore than they mean you should stop wearing seat belts because of airbags.I don't wear a helmet when driving but I do when skiing but this is because of societal norms rather than a rational assessment of my well being.
I am not trying to persuade anyone else how they should engage in their activities.
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@snowyc, I agree it is impressive that it is not ENTIRELY about helmets already. But still, classic snowheads!
As an aside I drive in Italy quite a lot and don't at all find that they speed more than in other nations, and certainly there are parts of the UK where speed and aggression on the road are worse in my experience.
@T Bar, I don't really get why you wear a helmet for skiing, if as you say it is just "societal norm" that causes you to do so. If you see no good reason then simply stop wearing the helmet, that is entirely your choice and you should not feel pressured into doing so.
As another aside most of the instructors in Monterosa seemed to favour a fetching bobble hat. I chatted to a few of them and it seems it is a bit of a tradition, and definitely more comfortable when working on the bunny slopes. Maybe go skiing there and you will feel less conspicuous without your helmet on!
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@zikomo I am generally speaking a follower of societal norms. Wearing a helmet does not bother me , it is more that I feel maybe I should wear one in the car on a logical basis rather than I should avoid it on skis. When skiing helmets are warm the annoyances are finding room for them in restaurants on the mountain and packing them to go and come back from skiing.
The main time I don't wear a helmet when it has become a norm is when I take my bike to the shops for a quick bit of shopping It is cumbersome to carry and a bit of a pain but sometimes other road users criticise me for it.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| zikomo wrote: |
As an aside I drive in Italy quite a lot and don't at all find that they speed more than in other nations, and certainly there are parts of the UK where speed and aggression on the road are worse in my experience.
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To keep it OT I'll disagree! In the UK the speeding is mainly after 8pm when kids take parents' cars or their fiesta/corsa/polo and go enjoying quiet roads, or always speeding vans which we can ignore here.
In italy they are always in a hurry, even old lady in old fiat panda can stay 1-2m behind you when driving 100kmh.
I still find their driving more positive than Uk's staying in right lane because the driver turns right in 20miles.
Last time in Italy i was overtaken couple times on a town road just because i stuck to the limit. In the UK I overtook one car on a country road this year and got flashing lights from the upcoming car even though I could have safely done it twice.
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| VolklAttivaS5 wrote: |
| @Frosty the Snowman, good question, although I think it’s the height you fall from that matters with regards to the injuries you would likely endure (if you fall off). |
The detachable Euro chairs usual travel at 5 m/s and I've been on one that did an emergency stop and we were on a huge stretch between very distant pylons.
If you've experienced that you'd always pull the bar down.
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FAQ
just putting that bar down (it's really no energy to do so, is it) stops you meeting that once 