 Poster: A snowHead
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There are cold temperatures forecast for much of the Alps / Pyrenees this week: overnight temperatures projected to be widely below -10 to -15°C, maybe below -20°C in a couple of resorts. (Yes, I know this happens every year... but I couldn't find a specific thread.) For those of us driving, what extra precautions do we need to take?
I've thought of the following, but please let correct me if wrong, and let me know what I've missed:
- if hiring, try to get a petrol car rather than diesel, since diesel could freeze at this temperatures. But petrol should be OK?
- if stuck with diesel, try to fill up in the Alps where "winter diesel" should be available (difficult to do if you've just hired with a full tank)
- take a bottle of water in case screenwash freezes
- are handbrakes freezing overnight still a potential issue, or is that just with old cars?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I had frozen handbrake cable once on a Renault 16 when I was working in NL in 1985, had to hit the rear cables with a hammer. It was regularly -25C and colder that winter, and the car was otherwise completely reliable.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@denfinella, are you concerned when travelling to the resort? Or leaving your car overnight and using it each day?
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Snow shovel and brush in the boot just in case. Gloves for fitting chains. These are more for snow than cold.
Undiluted screen wash in the washer bottle.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I wouldn't be using water if the screenwash freezes, It will often freeze solid.
Depending on where you hire rental cars often have winter diesel.
If they don't and you are parking outside an antigel can be added I have done this before when renting in Venice.
Biggest things are ensuring you have snow chains and if possible renting with winter tyres. Then driving sensibly according to to conditions.
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I cant remember the last time i had a diesel hire car.
Dont leave bottles of water in the car overnight
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| Jonny996 wrote: |
I cant remember the last time i had a diesel hire car.
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That's interesting the vast majority of mine have been diesel.
I can't recall having an option but I usually hire large cars for quite a few passengers, often vans.
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@Scarlet, leaving it overnight (or for multiple nights).
@T Bar, re. water I meant just to pour onto the windscreen to clean it / remove grit, rather than topping up the screenwash with it.
Last edited by After all it is free  on Sun 15-01-23 23:23; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Geneva rentals ought to be on winter diesel, although I have no idea how cold that goes.
Italian cars seem not to have winter diesel and by the time you get to resort, the local stations will almost certainly have sold out of the anti-waxing additive. A litre or two of petrol might be a solution...  A few friends have had their cars diesel "freeze"*
* it doesn't actually freeze. But your car won't start.
TBH, I haven't noticed particular issues when it gets that cold i.e. is -15 worse than -10? Not sure. (things like screen wash, diesel, of course have temp limits).
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Mon 16-01-23 8:37; edited 1 time in total
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| denfinella wrote: |
@Scarlet, leaving it overnight (or for multiple nights).
@T Bar, re. water I meant just to pour onto the windscreen to clean it / remove grit, rather than topping up the screenwash with it. |
When it's really cold water will freeze when poured onto a windscreen, I'd use a deicer personally with the water.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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The coldest that I have seen on the car instrument cluster was -30, my petrol car started first time every day but even locals with diesel cars were having problems.
I don't leave the brush and snow shovel in the car overnight, might need them to be able to open the boot.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| under a new name wrote: |
TBH, I haven't noticed particular issues when it gets that cold i.e. is -15 worse than -10? Not sure. (things like screen wash, diesel, of course have temp limits). |
Friends of mine had a very expensive excess to pay when their diesel rental waxed in Switzerland leaving it outside and they had to be towed back to Italy
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| Jonny996 wrote: |
I cant remember the last time i had a diesel hire car.
Dont leave bottles of water in the car overnight |
Can't remember the last time I had a petrol hire car
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You know it makes sense.
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| T Bar wrote: |
| Jonny996 wrote: |
I cant remember the last time i had a diesel hire car.
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That's interesting the vast majority of mine have been diesel.
I can't recall having an option but I usually hire large cars for quite a few passengers, often vans. |
I always get the cheapest car they have as its only 3 of us with little luggage , last couple have been petrol 3 cylinder jobs
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Leave your windscreen wipers up. In 2011 my car registered -25 down in Essert La Pierre. It was a petrol and started no bother and it was a bloody old Vauxhall Corsa. A newer, swiss side hire car should be fine.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Jonny996 wrote: |
I always get the cheapest car they have as its only 3 of us with little luggage , last couple have been petrol 3 cylinder jobs |
I usually have between 4 and 8 people with skis and luggage, so either a van or an estate for me. Probably why we have had different fuel though.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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How much of an issue is this? Honestly, it’s not a problem I’ve experienced, so I’m genuinely interested. I expect the majority who need to use a car every day to access the resort are staying further down the valley, and therefore it will usually be warm enough not to be a problem. I accept that leaving day may be an issue for those who have left a car standing all week, and so parking it indoors would be preferable if garage space is available.
And yes, leave your wipers up!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@T Bar, good point, hadn't thought of that. Thanks.
Thanks for all the replies. Lots of useful info. Re. leaving windscreen wipers up - is that just if snow is forecast, or for cold (dry) weather too?
@Scarlet, I suspect it's only an issue for a minority of people, except for departure day, but I've done several trips where I've stayed in a resort and visited other ones on day trips. Often I've stayed in the valley, but not always. (This time I'll be at 1,000 metres, so not particularly high, but could still be below -10°C.) I can think of other scenarios, such as staying in La Rosiere (1850m) and fancying a day trip to Sainte-Foy, etc...
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| Scarlet wrote: |
| How much of an issue is this? Honestly, it’s not a problem I’ve experienced, so I’m genuinely interested. |
As I posted above it has happened to friends of mine. Parking overnight outside in low temps can lead to waxing with diesel cars.
I have put in an additive in the past when renting in Italy.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| denfinella wrote: |
| Re. leaving windscreen wipers up - is that just if snow is forecast, or for cold (dry) weather too? |
Never take an alpine weather forecast that seriously. Just because no snow is forecast, doesn’t mean there will not be snow (or rain, sleet, anything really…) Overnight, when it’s cold,leave them up.
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I've lived in the Alps a couple times with diesels - once a 2003 Defender, once a 2015 Range Rover. Never had any issues with starting.
Plenty of problems with the Defender's heating being useless, mind. 
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I grew up in severe winter temperatures. As such, when we drive to the Alps, we have winter screen wash (-20C) in a bottle and de-icer which lives in the flat so we can de ice the car if needs be - never water on the windscreen. It will freeze on contact as others have said and if the car is frozen shut you won't be able to put the screen de-mister on.
Gloves, a ground sheet for kneeling on and a powerful torch for putting chains on in a blizzard - the only time you will need to put them on!
Everything else covered already - shovel, brush, etc.
If we area driving from the UK we time our fill ups with our diesel car to make sure we are fairly empty when we get to the Alpine petrol stations as they definitely have the additive in the diesel. Many pumps have a sticker that tells you. We fill up locally on the way in. I don't know about the general situation in France but Total on the service areas seem to have it as well.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Hot water bottle will quickly deice a frosty/frozen windscreen. Just make sure your windscreen has no cracks or chips.
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I had a strange problem after my car had been standing in lower than -16. It started fine, left it running to clear screens etc. So far so good, went to drive home, through the village no problem but when I started to go uphill it cut out. This coincided with the heater going cold so gave me a clue as to what the problem was. The engine thermostat had opened with the extra heat generated when using power and allowed coolant at -16 into the engine. The management system said 'does not compute' and switched the engine off. Waited a couple of minutes while the coolant mixed and allowed the engine to start and off we went.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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If you have a diesel, and are not sure that the fuel is rated down to forecast temps, then there are additives like https://tritechlubricants.com/lubricants/icebreaker/
I use it when alpine diesel is not available and no issues. Best added to a partially empty tank and then top it with diesel to help ensure it mixes well.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@T Bar, see my sentence above that one (edited to make point clearer). The garage in Champoluc specialises in thawing them out with a fuel powered space heater. What could possibly go wrong?
Mind you, I recall trucks stick beside the northerly A9 in Scotland with bonfires under their tanks 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_diesel_fuel#France
@Scarlet, it's a known problem with diesel rentals out of e.g. Milan or Turin. Stations sell additives, but invariably this is a last minute thought and the sole station in resort has sold out. Sensible countries (list in article) legally mandate winterised diesel of various forms.
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@under a new name, my car is petrol, so maybe that's why I've not had any issues. It's garaged anyway.
Re: screen wash – you should carry plenty of spare when driving in the alps, simply because the roads are absolutely filthy and you will go through it at 10x the normal rate just to see where you are going!
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You know it makes sense.
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| Scarlet wrote: |
Re: screen wash – you should carry plenty of spare when driving in the alps, simply because the roads are absolutely filthy and you will go through it at 10x the normal rate just to see where you are going! |
A good point! Most supermarkets stock pre-mixed windscreen wash rated to -20C so it’s well worth keeping a 4l container spare and to hand.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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First Christmas we owned our apartment we had a brand new Nissan Xtrail diesel. Temps overnight regularly got down to -18 and below that week, and diesel waxed up. Had to have tank emptied and fuel filter replaced. We'd been to Turin to get furniture from Ikea and filled up with fuel down in Italy near Susa somewhere, not thinking it wouldn't be suitable for the nearby Alps. Never happened since though, and have been in similar temps, but always with winter fuel from nearby fuel stations.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Tip for very cold conditions;-
If you've a diesel and it gets particularly cold starting can get more difficult, dont try to start it immediately by just cranking it. Turn ignition on and watch the diesel pre-heat light on the dashboard (usually curly yellow pigtail) leave until this goes out, then turn off and on again to do the same a total of three times, now crank it and starting will most likely become instant. This pre-warms the combustion chamber such that the cold diesel fuel ignites more effectively.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| under a new name wrote: |
| Sensible countries (list in article) legally mandate winterised diesel of various forms. |
They may legally mandate but as with much in France it doesn't mean anyone actually pays any attention. If you fill up from French valley services stations you would do well to put additive in if it is forecast to get very cold or just buy Total Excellium or similar known brand rather than filling up at CostCutters pumps round the back of the supermarket.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Cacciatore, round here in winter it's labelled -30.
@davidof, haha, I only meant that it was written into the rules, not that they'd be adhered to. Never had a diesel so ne personal experience other than rentals.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Back in the day when cars were less reliable and had carburators rather then ECU controlled fuel injection...it was always a crapshoot as to whether you could get them to start below 10-15 fahrenheit...I remember pulling out the choke, pumping the gas and praying it would catch...when I was a kid and it was very cold my father would often bring the battery inside (when you only needed to undo a simple hold-down and the two poles, took 3 minutes to reconnect...)
Nowadays, biggest issue could be diesel fuel sludging up and as mentioned windscreen fluid (just keep a bottle inside and add in the morning). But I've never had diesel issues, actually, although I know it's not uncommon)
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Jonny996, that is a good point about car size Jonny. Big cars will tend to be a diesel but a tiny car will most likely be petrol.
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Re diesels, remember half the cars, and nearly all the transfer minibuses, delivery vans etc are diesel. Just top up with winter diesel when you can, it's not really a problem as long as you don't have a dodgy battery or glow plugs. Neat winter screenwash, rated to -20 (have used -30 but didn't like it as it was a bit "gloopy" and smeared the screen). Lift wipers overnight. Don't leave bottled, or cans of drink in the car, cans particularly can freeze solid and split overnight, nasty mess when it melts! Otherwise, any properly maintained vehicle should be fine.
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You don't need deep winter temps to start being affected. Regular diesel will start to cloud at around freezing point as the paraffin content starts to set. This won't stop you driving but it will impact the mileage you get, and mess with your range. Once regular hits about -8 it'll be too slushy to be pumped effectively enough to flow through the lines properly.
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| Quote: |
Hot water bottle will quickly deice a frosty/frozen windscreen.
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Not a good idea if it's REALLY cold - will freeze quickly.
Mechanical handbrakes can get clogged up with the icy slush thrown up from the road. Leave the handbrake off and leave the car in the appropriate gear.
What's interesting in the Alps is that windows can still be quite clear in the mornings, and not need de-icing, because the humidity level is often far lower than it is on cold mornings in the UK.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Richard_Sideways, I have been driving diesels for several decades now, and while I did have a few minor issues before I knew "winter diesel" existed it has been nothing like as problematic as you claim.
First ever ski trip we drove to Livigno (possibly the coldest resort in the Alps), parked up the Mondeo TDCI with a quarter tank of normal diesel thinking we would fill up when we set off home. A week later, car temperature showed -24. Took two turns of the key to start it, then had to sit with my foot on the throttle for ten minutes to keep it going while it belched black smoke, after ten minutes it was fine.
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The Transit we rented to take stuff down to our French apartment, when it was new, refused to start after a not very cold night (maybe minus 10). The place was still a building site and one of the French workers, seeing us struggling, just told us to leave the bonnet open for the sun to get at the engine and wait 15 minutes.
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FAQ
