Looking for some advice and recomendation on how to get into off piste skiing.
Bit of background. The OH and I have been skiing since 2015. In that time we have progressed to a very solid level of on piste skiing. We've had a mixture of group and private lessons as well as being naturally quite good at picking things up. We can ski pretty much any pisted run on a hill with a good degree of confidence.
We both have an interest in getting into off piste, probably at first tackling the lift accessed parts of the mountains and eventually then progressing onto touring.
Where is the best place to start? I'd assume going on an organised course? If so, any recommendations?
Thanks all
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I would recommend a Snoworks course.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Second question (to which it’s absolutely ok not to know the answer): do you have a sense of why you want to tour? Is it to access parts of the mountain that you can’t get to solely by lifts? Do you want longer excursions, earning your descents? Are you potentially interested in hut-to-hut tours? How much downhill performance are you willing to sacrifice in the name of getting up? Do you want to try some different things out and see what appeals?
Third question: how far from the pistes have you gone so far? What different conditions have you skied in, and what have you enjoyed most/least?
You’re right that there are lots of organized courses, some answers to some of the above will help others help you choose.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Initial step would be something in the order of Verbier that has well proscribed "itinerary" routes, which are controlled for avalanche, marked, but definitely not pisted. Skiing much more free-form? In these environments to start your journey away from pisted surfaces.
Above is an example of specifically layed out non pisted routes, of which there are extensive area to experience and explore.
Obviously, Initial venturing is facilitated by shorter between piste areas that can be used in many areas to find your feet literally next to main routes.
@Fridge03, many will so go with a group, guide, instructor - which isn't necessarily a bad shout, though has a cost and also potentially you might just be/become a following and so won't learn to fend for yourself, as it were.
Definitely buy avalanche kit (transceiver, probe, shovel) for all participants and definitely read up as much as possible on avalanches and how to read snow reports.
How I did it, and expect many do, is to start exploring off the side and in between pistes. Start to crib off people slightly more exotic routes, either by sight or word of mouth. Just go for it and build up your experience.
Things to think about/look out for:
On the avy side of things - there are some basics that will get you a long way - obviously degree of slope is a big factor in itself. You can have a lot of fun on mellow terrain, you don't have to go hardcore. Anything that is remotely iffy go one by one, if in doubt pass on it. Obviously warming is an issue. Plenty to read online to build up knowledge.
Anything new, remote, potentially problematic, do earlier in the day. Getting yourself out the do do, getting help, getting rescued (worst case scenario's here) time is your friend. If you doing something a bit gnarly at 3:30/4 that goes a bit tits up things can get panicky.
Test the snow out. Sometimes the off piste can be really heavy or really crusty making it very difficult to ski and it can change as you go up/down in altitude or depending on the face and time of day. So ideally you try a couple of turns while you can still fall back to the piste and only commit if decent.
Losing a ski. It will happen, even if only briefly. Mark your spot and look around. If you still have the other ski use it to slash across the slope (or used a pole). Depending on you fell the ski could be above you (face plant) or below having slid under the snow (a more forward moving release).
I have done a bit with a guide but not too much. You learn a bit over time where the possibilities are. Also going the same place several times can help.
I did an Intro to Ski Touring week many years ago which was great and I would love to have done more but started a family. Good if you like the idea of hiking and skiing combined - and getting away from the lift system.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
It's probably not something to get into “having a bash yourself”, though clearly many do. I suspect they make up a large number of the ones we see from a lift, heading out without equipment or skiing a steep line next to an avalanche ten minutes ago
First, buy some avi kit and learn how to use it. Do an avalanche course on a mountain – you will learn a lot more than from the internet or in a lecture theatre. Then do another one, in a different location and conditions.
Look out for an intro to off-piste/freeriding/ski touring type course with an instructor for technique tips – you need to be able to ski rock-hard debris, waist-deep powder, and everything in between, and this can take a bit of time to learn. You also need to get out in lots of different conditions to experience the full range, and this may take some time to discover. Ask lots of questions. Bear in mind that it is more tiring than skiing on the piste, so you may just want to spend a couple of days of a week-long trip doing this.
As mentioned above, ski routes are a great way to get started without exposing yourself to too much danger. Once you've got the hang of it, you can find guided day groups at lots of resorts. If there is anything like a sponsored ski test going on in your resort, you may find guided days at a discount rate.
Have fun!
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Assuming you're looking more at next year than this then one good place to start would be with a SH Bash. Early Dec. you have the PSB (Pre Season Bash) which always has a couple of "Intro to Off Piste" sessions and full guided days, then around this time of year you have the SOPiB (Spring Off Piste Bash). Certainly for the PSB you don't need to spash out on all the kit and can borrow it from a fellow SH.
Another option would be someone like HOFNAR who run both 'beginner' and 'experienced' off piste weeks at the end of Jan each year. Again if you don't have all the kit you can borrow it from the guides so you can make sure it's really IS your thing before getting the wallet out - especially as you'd need 2 sets of kit as a couple.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Mjit wrote:
Assuming you're looking more at next year than this then one good place to start would be with a SH Bash. Early Dec. you have the PSB (Pre Season Bash) which always has a couple of "Intro to Off Piste" sessions and full guided days, then around this time of year you have the SOPiB (Spring Off Piste Bash). Certainly for the PSB you don't need to spash out on all the kit and can borrow it from a fellow SH.
Another option would be someone like HOFNAR who run both 'beginner' and 'experienced' off piste weeks at the end of Jan each year. Again if you don't have all the kit you can borrow it from the guides so you can make sure it's really IS your thing before getting the wallet out - especially as you'd need 2 sets of kit as a couple.
Isn’t the Spring off piste bash a bit hardcore for beginner off piste though (in La Grave so no pistes at all)?
The Gnarly but Gnice bash in Gressoney might be a better option as first steps? That could be perfect as possibly a fair few other snowheads in the OP’s position…
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@sheffskibod, the SOPiB is based in Serre Chevalier. Groups then go wherever the snow is good, including La Grave but not exclusively there. There are 2 or 3 instructed groups (as opposed to purely guided) which help less experienced snowHeads to learn the ropes, as it were. I wouldn't say it's the right trip for your very first foray off piste, but if you've done a few days already then it works.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@Fridge03, inevitably there's a huge amount of flannel talked above. Apply KISS. Hire a private for a morning and see if you like it. Take it from there.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
At a basic level many resorts now have runs/areas that are un-pisted but patrolled.
These together with, as drjohn says, private instructor session(s) will give a starting point and taster. Then step it up to full courses / dedicated trips.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
My personal approach was:
Ride "safe" off piste in the Alps with friends. Learn to ride powder (on skinny skis).
Go to North America and ride off-piste in safety, everywhere, without having to worry about safety
dr John wrote:
inevitably there's a huge amount of flannel talked above
Nonsense, there's a lot of helpful advice from polite people, like most forums.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
phil_w wrote:
[*]Go to North America and ride off-piste in safety, everywhere, without having to worry about safety[/list]
This is a pretty good idea for getting lots of off piste mileage under your belt without worrying too much about nav or avy risk. Obviously go to the Rockies and West for best chance of decent snow.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
A lot of dubious advice here, but some good.
Don't do it alone right now, not even between pistes. The snow can change very suddenly and you could have nasty fall
Choose resorts with lots of ungroomed runs and ski these as much as possible
Most important: join off piste beginner and get proper instruction from proper instructor. Careful as many resorts wont have off piste groups you can just rock up to and join, but Tignes, les Arcs, St Anton to name a few you will have easily find a group. Snoworks an excellent recommendation. Piste to Powder absolutely forget about until you have considerable experience
No need to buy avalanche equipment at this point, nearly all companies/ ski schools will provide this or rent it to you at very reasonable price
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
We've just returned from Trysil in Norway. It has huge amounts of gentle side piste options and the snow was fantastic. I'm sure I read on their website somewhere that everywhere lift-served is avalanche controlled too, although I can't find that on the website right now.
I can't think of anywhere else I've skied in Europe that offered the same amount of beginner off piste opportunities, albeit most runs were relatively short. I probably spent 50% of my time off to the side and 50% on piste.
The usual rules re avalanche awareness and kit do of course still apply.
They've had a very good season compared with the alps, so could even still be an opportunity for this spring.
Assuming you're looking more at next year than this then one good place to start would be with a SH Bash. Early Dec. you have the PSB (Pre Season Bash) which always has a couple of "Intro to Off Piste" sessions and full guided days, then around this time of year you have the SOPiB (Spring Off Piste Bash). Certainly for the PSB you don't need to spash out on all the kit and can borrow it from a fellow SH.
Another option would be someone like HOFNAR who run both 'beginner' and 'experienced' off piste weeks at the end of Jan each year. Again if you don't have all the kit you can borrow it from the guides so you can make sure it's really IS your thing before getting the wallet out - especially as you'd need 2 sets of kit as a couple.
Isn’t the Spring off piste bash a bit hardcore for beginner off piste though (in La Grave so no pistes at all)?
The Gnarly but Gnice bash in Gressoney might be a better option as first steps? That could be perfect as possibly a fair few other snowheads in the OP’s position…
IMHO the gnarly would be better initially; Another big factor for off vs on piste is how much fitter you need to be/harder it is; Especially when learning as a huge chunk of energy can be spent getting back up in hard terrain... Having a couple of full days instruction can give a nice mix + opportunity to experiment before going for a full week (where you are paying a lot of money for a guide).
(I think optimum is probably a day or two with a good instructor, then book a full weeks course depending on how that goes with someone well recommended. Used to be a good option in chamonix from action outdoors (UCPA reseller but did non UCPA trip with generally better instruction from their own chalet, but seems to have been killed off by covid Although plausibly at similar risk to UCPA trips - mid-level off piste skiers booking 'beginner' weeks and pushing the standard upwards...)
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
My answer was bashes. PSB and EoSB off-piste clinics followed by easy guiding days. Followed that with GnarliiBug and SOPi
Having just done my first N America trip, @phil_w, and @Dave of the Marmottes, suggestion also holds up pretty well.
As for SOPi being too hard core... there's lesson/groups for everyone (as long as you're reasonably confident on blacks) and the instructors are excellent. My first one I had little experience, less technique and there was more snow than I'd ever seen. I spent the first 2 days filling down... Best week (to that point) on skis by the end.
Gnarliibug not necessarily better. You might need to arrange with @admin, to swap your 2x 6person all day lessons (which tend to be piste based) for shorter, smaller group ones (2x 2person 2hrs or 2x 3person 3hrs).
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Off piste skiing .. It has many meanings to different people.
Do you want to ski just the other side of the poles, cut across bits in between pistes , follow some tracks as it looks like fun, seen an open area with fresh snow that noone has skied and think it would be great to get into before anyone else, like the look of the marketing bluebird powder days skiers, spotted a few shortcuts that noone else seems to have, etc etc
If so then you should be fully aware that many experienced skiers have died in each of those places.
Off piste skiing is risk management.
May sound over the top and there are obviously some places you can go as pointed out, but don't think you can get routes off of people and just go for it (as suggested earlier..main reason for my response) and the dangers aren't just avalanches
Classic example of no awareness and possibly everything wrong when it all seems your best day ..
Go on recommended courses . Go with guides. Go with people with credible experience . And once you think you have it all worked out and get blase about it.(or the person leading you does)...remember thats when you are a danger to yourself and everyone you are skiing with.
Do it properly or not at all is my advice as it is one of the best ski experiences you can have.
The mountains dont care how Good a skier you are. Ignorance and lack of awareness is no excuse.
Ski safe and have fun ....oh and telemark too
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Thu 2-03-23 16:13; edited 1 time in total
After all it is free
After all it is free
phil_w wrote:
there's a lot of helpful advice from polite people, like most forums.
I wonder how many instructors or guides would agree with your advice to "Ride safe off piste in the Alps with friends", and how many would say this was dangerous nonsense.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Go with someone who knows the area. I think the first time we went was with an instructor. It wasn't massively off-piste but these people know where they are going, the terrain and conditions. Anyone else is just guessing/lucky.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
By far the easiest way of getting a lot of off piste experience fairly quickly is doing a n America trip where you can ski controlled in bounds lift served off piste. Perfect for beginners as you don't need equipment/knowledge/training, simply focus 100% on the skiing itself. Plus you are going to get to ski all types of terrian - trees, bowls, steeps, chutes etc.
The next step would be some kind of course, in Canada there is AST1, I'm not sure if Europe has an equivalent qualification. This will give you the absolute basics. You can supplement it with the book "staying alive in avalanche terrain" which many consider *the* book. (If you read and take in that book fully, you probably know more than most!).
Then try and get out with guide and/or more experienced people that are happy to share their knowledge.
Personally I wouldn't even consider touring until fairly competent off-piste. You don't want to spend multiple hours walking up for a run down you can't actually enjoy.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@boarder2020,
Quote:
By far the easiest way of getting a lot of off piste experience fairly quickly is doing a n America trip where you can ski controlled in bounds lift served off piste. Perfect for beginners as you don't need equipment/knowledge/training, simply focus 100% on the skiing itself. Plus you are going to get to ski all types of terrian - trees, bowls, steeps, chutes etc.
The next step would be some kind of course
Definitely what I would do and very much regret not having done so when I was younger. I've given up trying to do off-piste now, sadly.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
I've done a good bit of off piste, but its always been difficult to find the time/money/company/weather to do as much as I would like. It's much more of a commitment in that sense than a week of cruising pistes.
One tip I would give is try to ski as much horrible snow as possible.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Don't go off piste on your own. You can join guided off-piste groups in some resorts - particularly Val d'Isere. Alpine Experience, for example, normally have beginner groups. Don't start with heavy old powder or crust or sludge, you can graduate to that later. Start with new powder which is easier or something which has not deteriorated much, which is what you hire a guide to find (as well as routes far from the piste which you wouldn't find otherwise, and which will certainly make you want to continue with this addictive kind of skiing).
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@Fridge03, best/cheapest/safest place to start IMHO is unpisted itineraries that are patrolled, or if you get lucky unpisted slopes during or straight after a big dump.
Off piste is ski what you find, so it's often not super light fluffy powder, so getting some solid time off the groomers would be key.
Next steps is a course, or an instructor for the day (often they should loan you the shovel, probe, transceiver) and the day should include using those tools!
Most expensive, nip over to Japan
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Like others, my reaction is go to the Rockies. Avalanche-controlled terrain in-bounds, but ungroomed. Ski patrol-swept. Lift service, no need for a touring set-up.
Here (Whitefish), you can even (if you do have a touring set-up) skin up, find a bathroom and lunch, and ski down. If you get a beacon, shovel, etc. you can even use the lift to access backcountry, unpatrolled, terrain.
In the states, there is the ability to dabble before you get "serious", and without a guide. Just duck into the trees off a trail. Watch out for treewells, though, they are a big deal.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Itineraries are just un-bashed and un-patrolled pistes (in many resorts such as St Anton most were originally pistes). They usually get skied-out really quickly.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
snowball wrote:
Don't go off piste on your own. You can join guided off-piste groups in some resorts - particularly Val d'Isere. Alpine Experience, for example, normally have beginner groups. Don't start with heavy old powder or crust or sludge, you can graduate to that later. Start with new powder which is easier or something which has not deteriorated much, which is what you hire a guide to find (as well as routes far from the piste which you wouldn't find otherwise, and which will certainly make you want to continue with this addictive kind of skiing).
Indeed.
Id be doing 'my outfit' a dis-service if didnt mention us... so TDC here in Val d offer plenty of off piste introductions including groups and privates too! Whilst we will always aim to get fresh powder if we can we have a much more 'learn to deal with the types of snow that we come across' attitude to make persons more adaptable.
Either way (speaking generally to everyone here) its very important to remember that there is little / no point 'getting into offpiste' if a persons basic technique is not solid. I can't tell you how many people I teach that have real issues in their everyday skiing (and boarding for that matter if on a board) that want to get into the off piste but I spend countless hours fixing that before the off piste is anything other than a disaster!
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Skiing off piste is simply about learning to ski well, as the off-piste is much less forgiving than bashed/groomed snow. If you can afford it, build a relationship with a private instructor. Otherwise, a good course will take you safely into a wide variety of conditions, teach you about mountaincraft and address your skiing. Additionally you will meet like-minded people to ski with and share future experiences.
Some people like the Warren-Smith approach, but it's not very personal and rates confidence over technique IMO.
The best definition of an expert skier I have come across is "you can ski the whole mountain with confidence and understand how much more you have to learn"
In the states, there is the ability to dabble before you get "serious", and without a guide. Just duck into the trees off the side
I don’t get why you need to go to the US for this?
I’ve been skiing off the side of the pistes (under 30 degrees) and on avi controlled itineraries with my kids since they were little with negligible avalanche risk. May be wrong but I don’t recall a fatal avalanche on side of piste or itinerary in the 15 years we’ve been skiing in Verbier? It’s certainly more dangerous skiing on the pistes with risk of being smashed into by someone.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@snowball..many Itineraries/Ski routes are MUCH more serious than pistes..In Austria there are broadly two categories -
1 red triangled routes which do usually resemble difficult pistes &
2 routes marked by a black edged triangle which can be very serious indeed & are at least as hard as the sort of offpiste that a typical holiday skier will contemplate …(for example one such marked route in my local area threads through the gaps in the avalanche barriers down a steep face with some “non optional” turns along the way - this is at least as technically demanding as iconic Saint Anton off piste such as the Schöngraben or Gamslugga but shorter & at least secured..)
So my answer to the OP is master the easier category of routes/Itineraries, then move onto the harder category before trying non marked off piste..
@snowball..many Itineraries/Ski routes are MUCH more serious than pistes..In Austria there are broadly two categories -
1 red triangled routes which do usually resemble difficult pistes &
2 routes marked by a black edged triangle which can be very serious indeed & are at least as hard as the sort of offpiste that a typical holiday skier will contemplate …(for example one such marked route in my local area threads through the gaps in the avalanche barriers down a steep face with some “non optional” turns along the way - this is at least as technically demanding as iconic Saint Anton off piste such as the Schöngraben or Gamslugga but shorter & at least secured..)
So my answer to the OP is master the easier category of routes/Itineraries, then move onto the harder category before trying non marked off piste..
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
A final comparison that Clarky999 & others who ski Innsbruck regularly will appreciate …in typical conditions, the black route/Itinerary off the top of the Nordkette is serious & technically demanding - more so than (to take another Arlberg comparison) the iconic Maienwasser off piste..
After all it is free
After all it is free
BobinCH wrote:
sibhusky wrote:
In the states, there is the ability to dabble before you get "serious", and without a guide. Just duck into the trees off the side
I don’t get why you need to go to the US for this?
I’ve been skiing off the side of the pistes (under 30 degrees) and on avi controlled itineraries with my kids since they were little with negligible avalanche risk. May be wrong but I don’t recall a fatal avalanche on side of piste or itinerary in the 15 years we’ve been skiing in Verbier? It’s certainly more dangerous skiing on the pistes with risk of being smashed into by someone.
(i take note of your points in your post and would add to the general thread) One thing about skiing any off piste / itinerary ... Its not just about if you can dig your fellow skiers out ...its if they can dig you out
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Dr John wrote:
.. I wonder how many instructors or guides would agree with your advice to "Ride safe off piste in the Alps with friends", and how many would say this was dangerous nonsense.
Appeal to authority. I would think that every single one of them will cross piste boundaries on a regular basis. You don't get zapped by lightening, you know! Obviously no one would put themselves at risk by providing "advice" on stuff like this - I did not - read what I actually said, not what you think I said.
Skiing is "dangerous nonsense", after all: you would be safer if you don't do it.
BobinCH wrote:
I don’t get why you need to go to [North America] for this?... I’ve been skiing off the side of the pistes (under 30 degrees) and on avi controlled itineraries with my kids since they were little with negligible avalanche risk.
You don't, but the risk is lower there, and specifically you can ride alone with more safety there. It's a question of degree.
North America lets you ride everywhere, not just "avi controlled itineraries", and it's all patrolled, plus rescue consequences are the same anywhere within the resort area.
The "risk" is less in North America, because the consequences of a problem are less. Hence my own approach to learning.
Your approach to the Alps is what everyone I know did/does, precisely because we do understand the risks, not because we don't.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
For me I did an ‘all mountain/all terrain’ course for a week in Tignes years ago and it went on from there. Something like that is ideal because you need to be able to ski anything that comes in your path on the mountain to enjoy ‘off piste’ properly as it can be so changeable. You can get days where there’s easy to ski light fluffy powder everywhere but that’s not the norm. That’s more likely in North America it’s true, and skiing there would give you the opportunity to ski non-pisted/ungroomed snow within the resort boundary, even the ‘pistes’ are often not pisted, they usually have a few which are groomed/pisted though.
What would be most helpful IMO is you need to have the tools to be able to ski the lot whatever it is. When off piste terrain is well skied like ski routes in an Alpine resort are it can bump up quickly, for example.
Plenty of providers available, there’s TDC, Snoworks, Warren Smith etc as others have mentioned. They will be taking you off the piste for sure but like Steve says it’s best to ensure the fundamentals are sorted first so you can ski highly variable terrain. You can hire skis and avalanche equipment through them if you don’t have your own.
That worked for me and most importantly I think you’d enjoy it.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
Although plausibly at similar risk to UCPA trips - mid-level off piste skiers booking 'beginner' weeks and pushing the standard upwards...)
