Long or short radius ski as a daily driver, and why?

A snowHead

TL;DR version:

Do you personally prefer a long, medium, or short turn radius ski as a daily driver, and why?

Long version:

I don’t want to own (and transport!) multiple pairs of skis for all conditions. I did that when I was a snowboarder and it got both silly and expensive. When going about picking myself some skis, I wanted one pair to do everything, and was prepared to accept the compromise that entailed. I went with the mantra (ho hum) that it’s easier to make a larger radius ski turn shorter than it is to make a shorter radius ski turn longer, so I bought the (then current) fully rockered Volkl Mantras.

I’m on holiday at the moment in Les 2 Alpes. I booked without knowing that there’s a music festival on (silly me), and it’s a lot busier than I was expecting it to be (which is relevant).

I got offered a cracking deal on renting (£44 for ‘diamond’ level skis, vs £84 to transport my own skis) so I thought I’d give it a go. I wanted an all-mountain ski in the circa 90mm category. My own current ski is an Atomic Vantage 90ti, which I really, rather like. The closest to that that the shop had was a 2016 Blizzard Brahma 88, but only in the next size up to my normal length. I took it anyway, as I didn’t fancy any of the other options.

As an aside, presumably longer skis are more robustly built as they are aimed at larger/heavier people? Anyway, whether they are or not, I found the over-seized Brahmas quite hard work. Not so bad when I could find an empty slope, and let them run a bit, but tedious on crowded slopes when I was forced to make a large number of short turns to control my speed/avoid other skiers. After four days my legs were knackered and I was not enjoying myself anywhere near as much as I should be.

I was talking to a local resident on a chairlift and grumbling about my problems. He said it was ridiculous to ski that particular ski on narrow and/or crowded slopes and suggested I change it. He told me that he himself had 6 different pairs of skis and would nip home to swap them as conditions/his fancy changed. How nice for him!

Obviously that’s not an option for the average British tourist, but I went back to the shop and the girl behind the counter gave me a shiny blue pair of Salomon S/Race SL10s. Well, what a revelation they were for tired legs. Almost effortless to ski after the Brahmas. Short turns were now a pleasure not a grind, and dealing with the crowds much less bothersome. And I was able to pick my way down the one black slope I could find open in an elegant, gazelle-like manner on my rubber legs. Well maybe that’s pushing it, but I was happy and able to ski the slope in a safe, low-energy style on tired legs, whereas I probably would have given it a miss today on the Brahmas.

I’ve got two days left and am really looking forward to playing around on these skis. Of course they were not great in the few feet of fresh snow that’s just fallen, and they aren’t much kop at long turns either, but strangely neither of those issues diminished my enjoyment of them. Of course when I find myself back in Les Arcs next month out early in the morning and wanting to rip big turns on some of my favourite empty reds, the Salomons would no doubt leave me wanting.

However, trying them has upset my apple cart a bit and has left me pondering that – if only one pair of skis is allowed – whether it’s better to
a. have a short radius ski and accept that you will make no adrenaline-pumping monster long turns, but instead will make a lot of pleasurable small turns or,
b. have a longer radius ski, get your adrenaline rush, but have to boss it about from time to time, which is not always fun.

What do you think? More importantly, what do you *do*? Compromise, or not?

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Short because not interested in big turns. For me the challenge is in ducking and diving. (Actually it’s in staying upright, but let’s move past that).

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@Old Fartbag, So do you take 2 pairs on holiday with you?

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

@Orange200, By 'ducking and diving' do you mean dodging other skiers?

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@Old Fartbag, Fair enough. Although, as you know, a week's skiing can cover a *lot* of different conditions.

After all it is free

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My entrance hall is like a rental shop, and I'm lucky nowadays to decide which pair I use whenever I ski, but my standard go to is a 175 18m radius master GS ski.

That said, this season I've also used a 165 FIS SL, a 180 FIS 24m radius GS ski (U16 FIS I think) and a 95 underfoot Scott Superguide.

If I was going to go for a 1 ski quiver, It would be the 175 18m radius master GS ski though or something similar. The extra 10cm length makes a big difference instability at higher speeds vs a SL ski.

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@Old Fartbag, @Harry Flashman, Thank you!

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@swskier, What do you do on narrow or crowded pistes? Just force the skis into short turns?

@greengriff, just ski short radius turns on them. Up the rotation movements and tighten the turns up.

You know it makes sense.

Short for show.

Long for go.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

I think radius is over-thought about.

My second last pair of slalom skis had a radius of about 54m ...

A snowHead

A snowHead

@greengriff, this isn't a conversation about turn radius, it's a conversation about ski width. You're comparing your normal 90mm (or in this case 88mm) ski with a 68mm one. It's hardly surprising that the 68mm ski is easier to ski on piste. The turn radius is a by-product of the width, not the other way round. Sounds to me like you should be reconsidering whether your daily driver should ever be as wide as 90mm.

Personally, I'm not at all surprised. I gave up switching skis around (a range from 72mm/13m to 111mm/40m) some time ago and have spent the last 5 or so years on an 83mm 20m turn radius ski (Kastle MX83 in 183cm). I used to think that my favourite radius was around 16m but having spent a few years on the Kastles, the 20m doesn't bother me at all. Interestingly, the current version in 182cm is 18m and that does appeal a bit but I think I'm playing mind games with myself. I own 13m radius Head Magnums and almost never take them out, I ski better on the longer turning skis. Part of my bias might also be that I spent my formative ski years on longer turning skis (24m from memory).

A couple of other things to consider - where you ski and binding position. I ski almost exclusively in the 3Vs now and cover a lot of distance, a 20m ski is just less tiring if you're riding the sidecut to save energy. If you're skiing somewhere where you have to make a lot more turns then a shorter turning ski may be better but it's the narrower width that is the real benefit.

I mention binding position because you switched to a French ski. Salomon and Rossi IME almost always have their recommended binding point further forward towards true centre than Austrian/German skis. Don't know about Blizzard but the point is, a further forward binding position will give easier turn initiation on hardpack. Next time you feel a ski isn't cooperating, you might want to consider moving the bindings forward 1-2cm on the rail.

The very last point is that the 2016 skis might just have been knackered and poorly serviced compared to a shiny new pair!

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

@Je suis un Skieur, “ The turn radius is a by-product of the width”

Retraction, oh I think I see what you mean. The varying width of the ski, ie sidecut?

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@under a new name, well if you want to be picky then strictly speaking it's a product of the sidecut. But with the exception of GS skis you can pretty well correlate ski width with radius, at least for piste orientated skis.

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Said it before in a different thread, the answer is obvious. One ski on each foot then you enjoy the best of both worlds. Very Happy

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My 112 underfoot DPS are.so easy to ski on piste...great for short turns and longer too.
Obviously off piste they are just the job.

You might think I'm joking, I'm really not Very Happy

The big front and rear rocker means that on piste the contact length is short, so they ski short and nimble.

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Height 188cm (6' 2")
Weight 95kg (15 stone)

Whilst working at Keystone Ski School and training for my PSIA Level 3, my daily driver / quiver of one was:

Salomon StreetRacer 10
170cm
125-66-104
r 12.9m

It did everything, with aplomb.

It was one of the snowiest winters on record too, and it was a dream in the powder (can't find shots online sorry)

Skied them in Washington State too

https://www.instagram.com/p/B1MvsxhBDTo/?img_index=1

I took the skis to Hokkaido for my first two winters

I'm the one in the orange jacket, blue beanie

https://www.instagram.com/p/CuGyfzuMihd/?img_index=3

And they did everything

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=79726070880&set=t.506688623&type=3

Am I still on them? And if not, why not?

No. They don't work as a touring ski

After a few experiments with mid-fat all-mountain skis, my current daily driver / quiver of one is:

Movement Zoo
177cm
115-84-106
r 18m
Centre mounted

Bi-directional twin tip for ease skiing backwards when I'm teaching
Centre mounted for easy pivoting / steering
Centre mounted for a more natural walk mode when touring

For a recreational skier I'd recommend a centre mounted bi-directional twin tip with dimensions 120-125mm in the tip, 85-95mm in the waist and length roughly 10-15cm shorter than your height.

That will cover you for all eventualities.

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No reason to not use slalom skis as your mainstay. It is purely a matter of taste and that you enjoy. My daughter skis everything, and I mean everything, on a set of FIS (junior) slalom skis. And more often than not kicks my bottom.

Where I would counsel caution is full-on GS skis. Frankly few can both properly utilise them and ski safely on piste. I don't let my kids use their race GS skis on recreational pistes, they certainly have the technical ability to handle them but it is simply is not sensible to have such a differential in speed and turn shape to the majority on the piste. I see an awful lot of chargers on long radius skis who tip and hold, i.e. they can get their ski on edge and manage to hold it, that are clearly being driven by the ski and have no chance of changing or controlling speed and turn shape at will. Just plain dangerous.

I always like a ski with an 18m radius (I'm a tallish woman) because I like doing longish turns where the slope and space will permit it. Around 18-19m is the sweet spot for me. Also prefer skis to have a twin tip or a rounded tail so they release in a relaxed way and aren't resistant to being skidded. Basically, I enjoy skiing on the ski equivalent of a longboard. Looking for a mellow feeling.

You know it makes sense.

I'm surprised there aren't more short radius AM-type skis. Black Crows brought out the Mirus Cor a few years ago. 13m radius with a 87mm waist. Rave reviews and sold out quickly its first year in the popular sizes. I assumed a bunch of manufacturers would copy it, but it's still pretty much unique.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

I think @clarky999 nails it - it really depends how you like to ski. I find short radius skis can be a bit twitchy and I’m 100% cool with not carving trenches all the time so I like things at the longer end. I’d rather pick my way down a busy narrow slope doing sniffy turns on long radius skis than other options

A snowHead

Maybe consider a longer pair of slalom racing skiis (in the 170's) which are nimble but at the came time will have a longer radius and stability. Cant really go wrong with Rossignol Hero or Head Super Shape if you are at a good level and not fussed about piste.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Easy one for me - the best on piste ski I've ever used - Atomic Redster X9S great for short and long turns, quite demanding, incredible edge hold and fast!

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@under a new name, glad to read that you are back on a gondola - unless it is just for lunch and not skiing.

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@Pamski, yep, thanks, I went skiing - woohoo. Knee absolutely solid.

I gave it an easy first outing and tried a pair of Dynastar Speed Masters, which were very lovely but a little slow in the transition.

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@Je suis un Skieur, I would however not entirely agree with, "The turn radius is a by-product of the width". Width comes into it, but to my mind as a product of castoring - with wider skis you are lifting yourself up.

Turn radius isn't so much affected by width as sidecut radius, torsional rigidity, edge angle (and snow conditions).

Back to the OP's original question, it's much easier to make a short radius ski do long radius turns than the other way around. The Brahmas aren't a very long radius ski but they're pretty rigid.

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@under a new name, I know what you're getting at. I should have said sidecut rather than width but the point I was trying to make was that a narrow waisted ski will almost always be easier to tip on its edge and engage the tip than a wider waisted ski, so turn initiation on hard pack is much quicker and less effort.

The OP was comparing AM skis with 88/90mm waists and sidecuts producing turn radii of 17-18m with a 68mm punter slalom ski with a turn radius of 12m. It's not the turn radius that is the key factor IMO - the Salomon GS10 has a 68mm waist and an 18m turn radius - it's the waist width. The OP is concluding that the 12m turn radius of the SL10 is the key reason for why he's enjoying his SL10s vs the Brahmas.

I don't think turn radius is the primary factor, he'd find the Salomon GS10s far easier to engage the tip than the Brahmas too. So the primary factor in this example is the 68mm waist width, the turn radius is a secondary factor (and a by-product of comparing a 68mm slalom ski vs a 88mm AM ski).

Hope that's clearer.

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@Je suis un Skieur, personal taste, I should have typed, "Personally, I find it's much easier to make a short radius ski do long radius turns than the other way around" Laughing

Without comparing all 3 skis side by side on snow under my boots, my suspicion is that it was the radius (as presuming (I don't know)) that the SL10s are a fairly full on slalom ski? But I am prepared to concede the doubt.

I found the Dynastar Speed Master I was on this afternoon a wee bit harder work (at slower speeds) than my Bonafides (wider version of the Brahmas). But loads of fun. I'd have preferred the SLs.

It's also got a bit to do with the skier, right?

Help!!

Long or short radius ski as a daily driver, and why?

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