PDS revisited.

A snowHead

Got back last week from a gentleman's trip to PDS saying in Morzine. I've been to the area twice previously but a good few years back. Nearly exclusively been to Austria in the years in between.

I'm sure this will stoke a fire but oh dear. Sad

We found we were continually saying "in Austria this, in Austria that".
So many things just were not good enough.
The lift system is really showing its age. Looks like there been little investment in the last 10 years. Even detaching lifts that should have the magic carpets to match the speed not working so you get walloped. Plenty of lifts that are the non-detaching type. #calf slapper.
The piste map/marking is so poor. I'm normally a person who plans every run and route but gave up completely. Signage for the pistes is so small but directions to lifts really big. I found I was often at intersections just guessing and was regularly joined by puzzled looking groups examining the maps and babbling away in confusion.
The on piste facilities, what's that about? A restaurant that was open with a huge sign saying no toilets, no water. Shocked

Others with just one dirty cubicle for everyone.
Some big queue's at times and not just an odd occasion. I waited longer several times in a week than I have done at all in about 10 years in Austria.

But the skiing and those mountains were fantastic. They did a brilliant job with the pistes considering how little snow they've had this season and that it was a few weeks old. Morzine itself was great. Lovely accomodation. Some really good restaurants.

Was sad to see Le Viking in such a sorry state. Stayed there with the family last time. Hopefully new owners will get it right.

To summarise, thanks PDS, appreciated it but I really don't think I will be back.

A snowHead

Weirdly, having just got back from SkiWelt, I found myself saying ‘let’s go to France next year!’ I went to Champéry last year on a trip with a friend, and have had 3 very happy family trips to Les Gets, and don’t recognise what you are describing. But then again, I was struggling to work out which bit of Söll was the banging party town with lots of restaurants and lively bars I see talked about here. It was a dreary quiet little place with one pleasant bar at the bottom of the slopes. I think the enjoyment of many of these places depends on chance. I was in Söll with family in a poor-snow sort of week, in the first fully-open season after a pandemic. It’s quite possible in a different year, in a different set of circumstances I would come away with a more enthusiastic feeling for the place. But on a scale from disaster to epic, we decided it warranted a ‘good-ish’ score. Nothing wrong, nothing great. But not as good as other places. It may well be that PDS was giving you similar vibes. But a discussion in a restaurant with kids had one of their Les Gets trips level-pegging for ‘epic’ along with a trip to an Austrian backwater resort. One thing that is for certain - if we all went to the same place, it would get rather crowded.

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Lift infrastructure, I think in most resorts there are some new modern lifts, some old ones, and certain areas which tend to be bottlenecks. There will be variation between one resort and next, a lot of which may depend on topography and resort layout. Of course crowds and/or bad weather may accentuate any shortcomings. But I think far too sweeping to consider that an Austria / France thing

Piste markings, when we go to new resort, pistes can be confusing at 1st, worse now that they won't give us paper maps. Much of this is unavoidable due to mountainous topography, and worse with very large resorts like PDS trying to fit everything on map. Try figuring out Rendl sector in St Anton from piste map! But after few hours of skiing it, it's actually very simple. Funnily enough I've often found new Austrian resorts more difficult to get used to, I think I prefer names of French pistes than numbering of Austrian ones

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Ok, here goes... As much as I like the PdS, much of what the OP says is factually accurate.

If you look at the Alpine countries as a whole, rather than individual resorts, the lifts are generally more modern / comfortable in Austria, eastern Italy and eastern Switzerland. Basically the German-speaking areas. Even among large French ski areas, the Portes du Soleil has old / slow lifts in comparison to those others that are well known to UK skiers.

The observation that pistes on piste maps usually have names in France and numbers in Italy is also true, though there are exceptions. That's mainly because on French pistes, numbers are used to "count down" towards the end of each run. I prefer the French system.

@andy, Morzine's pistes now all have numbers except for B and Z, if I recall correctly. The Dolomites areas usually have both names and numbers, but the piste maps sometimes only put one or the other.

Toilets are definitely generally better in Austria than French. That is well documented on other threads here.

I'm not surprised that queues were bad - it's the middle of the French school holidays. Outside of these times, queues would be exceptionally rare.

There is one thing I disagree with the OP about, which is admittedly subjective. I think signposting and piste maps in the PdS are both pretty clear. You do need to pick up the local piste map in each area though, as the domain is too vast to be clearly depicted in its entirety on a single map.

Finally, it's worth mentioning lift pass prices - substantially cheaper in the PdS (and French ski areas in general) compared to Austria, and even more so if you take into account the various deals that the PdS does for different times of year / days of the week.

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Skiwelt signing is equally dreadful.

After all it is free

@ianbradders, “ A restaurant that was open with a huge sign saying no toilets, no water.”

I would put money on that being a poor translation that should end “… to non-clients”

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It all depends. There are some REALLY slow fixed chair lifts in the Espace Diamant and a few drags which sort the men from the boys. But there has also been a fair bit of investment in fast, detachable chairs, not to mention the domaine's first gondola.

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I don't mind drags. Well, not on skis. But "Le Seigneur" in Flumet takes concentration. If you survive the savage jerk when you take off, there are intimidating "si vous tombez" signs pointing to the left, where (we don't tell visitors) there's a steep and often unpisted black run back to the bottom, where bar waiting for one of infrequent buses to Crest Voland you get back on the same lift. It's long, it goes in and out of the trees/sunshine/shadow and round several corners. And the top is about the steepest in France, and "hors normes". But it keeps the riff raff away...... One of my friends fell off that top section once. Her OH was behind her. I waited at the top for them...... nothing. A French guy came up and said yes, a woman in a blue jacket had fallen off in the gulley, but that a man had got off to help her. Laughing

Eventually they climbed up, knackered. We generally never took folk down there, but sometimes you lose concentration.....

You know it makes sense.

@pam w,
I thought this thread was about the PDS?

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

And also about the Ski Welt, the Arlberg, Soll and the Dolomites.

A snowHead

I've been to the PdS twice now. Once staying on the Swiss side and once on the French. I won't be returning unless its a very good price, last minute trip. I had a good time both times don't get me wrong (any skiing is better than no skiing), but I find the area limited and disjointed. Yes, the ski pass covers over 500km but there is a lot of buses or difficult connections. The low altitude is increasingly making it hit or miss, rained both times I've been there. To get the best conditions you are really looking at Avoraiz or higher, which gets very busy.

I get the benefits of it. Easy to get to, some great on piste accommodation, a good and lively town at the heart of it. But for me, I think there are other resorts that offer more.

A snowHead

That's the long and short if it @Fridge03.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I just got back from my annual family trip to Lenzerheide having skied twice in PDS this season (Chatel/Avoriaz) and I did notice just how comfortable and efficient everything is in Lenzerheide and Arosa compared to the older chairs in PDS. Signage also much better. Plus so much less queuing and waiting around and much more pleasant journeys up in CH (even though it was also Zurich snow sports hols the same week). That said, I still love the PDS, great restaurants, some good long runs, easy to avoid drags if you prefer. So I’ll happily be returning to both. snowHead

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Being a PdS fan and previously having lived there for a few years I think its a valid point that some ski areas signage is a bit better than the PdS.

My thought is the 3 x Valleys signage is very good.

Poor places in PdS......I'm thinking in Avoriaz to get in and out of Fornet Bowl (Loads of people confuse themselves trying to get out where you have to ski over the tunnel).

Also I think the signs between Chatel and Avoriaz could be better with BIG signs stating what time you need to be back from Chatel to successfully make it to Avoriaz sector.

I dont ski Morzine & Les Gets lots (Apart from Mt Cherry) but dont find the signage of Morzine that great.

Also around the back of Chatel/Chalet neuf and Le Corbeau lift (when you often need to down load is poor).

Lift Infrastructure in PdS does need investment but the lift pass is some what cheaper than other large French Ski Resorts so I think that is a factor in the investment?

THe previous Morzine/Avoriaz Mayor wanted to spend BIG bucks linking Plenny with Avoriaz by extending Prodain 3S lift alll the way to Morzine Centre and having an undeground travelator to Plenny but he was voted out so the plans have been mothballed.

See link to what it could have looked like.

https://www.freespiritalpine.com/video-new-ski-lifts-for-morzine-avoriaz/

Re: Lift pass price. 6 x day....

PdS = 297euro
Espace Killy = 378
3 x valleys = 360

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I agree - the Pds is dreadful.
It's full of holiday makers, and worst still - people on skis.
You can't move for people speaking English and pronouncing the piste names incorrectly.
Please stay away from here and take your holiday in St Anton instead.

If you do risk it round here, the golden rule of Avoriaz (during the holidays) is to avoid the bowl with Tour, Stade, Lac etc..
You can get to the top of Arare via Crot then Grande Combes.
To get out of Fornet bowl ( if you don't go via Vallee de la Manche or the Swiss Wall) Cubore, Abricotine then Brochaux is the way to go.

Avoid Proclou on Sunday & Monday as full on long beginner snakes.

Charming starts with CH, so head for CHalet-Neuf and CHampoussin.

For Les Gets without the hordes, go via Col D'Encrenaz and Chery Nord.

TBH putting signs telling people how long it will take to get back to certain places isn't helpful IMHO, because it depends how fast you ski / board. How much you stop and faff.
What if somebody sees a sign saying it'll take them 30 mins to get back to PLJ, but they miss the last lift because they went too slowly, and end up having to get a Taxi from Ardent up over the Col Du Corbier and along to PLJ? I think they would feel very much misled.

I remember in the mid 80 trekking in the Himalayas around the Annapurna region the distances were all given in hours, but the reality was most were way shorter, but others way longer as there had been landslides and you had to go around, so by and large these times were useless. Importantly, what it didn't do was tell you where was open and where was closed, which would have been far more useful as I went in low season and found many lodges closed up, resulting in far longer days looking for somewhere open. So whenever I see a sign telling me how long somebody else thinks its gonna take me to get somewhere I treat it with a huge pinch of salt.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

Presumably you didn’t make it up and over to Les Gets at any point then? The piste/run layout is much more sensible than Morzine, and whilst there are some calf clappers, about half of the lifts are comfortable, quick, 6 man lifts.

The queues during half term can be horrendous though. Which is why I never ever go during half term. If you were gheee last week, it would have coincided with Paris and most of England (not sure about Wales/Scotland), which is quite literally the worst time to go.

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While nothing the OP says is untrue I'm still a fan of the PDS. I think the difference is I've been there enough that I know most of the tricks and routes to avoid the sheeple who can only see one way from A to B. Morzine also has the best apres I've found in France (I learnt to ski in Ischgl so most resorts are a bit dissapointing on that front).

Last I heard the new plan in Morzine is to extend the Super-Morzine lift, adding a new top station and converting the current one into a middle, so you'll have a choice of the current green across to Avoriaz or some new blue/red routes. The old mayor's idea was just nuts and they were never going to be able to afford it.

And if anyone needs to update their lifts in the PDS it's the darn Swiss! When a drag lift doesn't give you enough capacity the correct solution is to put in a chair, NOT a second drag lift right next to the current one!

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You know it makes sense.

@ianbradders, what's the Cable du Pleney? If it's the gondola, then 580p/h is definitely not correct.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

A snowHead

@pam w,

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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But a straightforward button lift can be a lot less faff than a chair.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

@pam w,

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Even less faff than skis/board on/off all the time for the heated 10er gondolas.

PdS drags were (presumably still are?) on one of the main links. And go round a corner and at one point I'm convinced they go down hill too.
6ft11 ski instructor in our group one year had to do a T-Bar with a drag-phobic petite 10yr old once when we did the PdS loop. He had to have the T-bar behind his knees to make it kind of level.

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After all it is free

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PDS revisited.

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