 Poster: A snowHead
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Apologies if there is a thread elsewhere.
I've just read this.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-64530672
Thoughts to all those affected.
Be carefu out there.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I commented on the St Anton incident in the StA thread… to repeat here, I find it hard to comprehend how a local ski guide came to the conclusion that it was safe to ski the Törli on an Av Risk 4 day. He and his clients would have sighted the many avalanches in the Mattun bowl on the way up the Kapallbahn, yet decided to press on. He and one of his clients paid the ultimate price for a bad decision.
We saw a lot of other high risk lines yesterday, especially in the Mattun bowl, which was actually closed yesterday. Have transceivers and av bags diminished people’s perception of av risk?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Are there more this season? Or is the beeb just reporting them more?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@ulmerhutte, people still took/take those risks without a bag and beeper
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@Agent Orange, as far as the Tirol goes, from @Scarlet's link,
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As the avalanche report shows, there was a similar avalanche situation in Tyrol exactly one year ago. Within two days, eight people were killed in three avalanche accidents. These were an avalanche accident at the Fließer Berg in the Samnaun Group (five deaths), an avalanche accident at the Breiteggspitze in the Western Kitzbühel Alps (two deaths) and an avalanche accident at the Gammerspitze in the Schmirntal in the Northern Zillertal Alps (one fatality). |
Comparing one set of stats as being similar to another is no reason for complacency.
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We know that one key factor can be:
1 I have come to ski (coulior X, slope Y, hill Z)
2 I am going to do it
3 I was not here when there was heavy snowfall and high wind
4 It’s a sunny, still day
5 the snow is untracked
6 I came to ski it and I will ski it
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After one skier was killed in Kleinwalsertal, on a slope that is a known slide area, on his own at level 4... another two were taken by a slab in Kleinwalsertal on another known slide face at level 4 today. They survived!
WTF is wrong with these people? I don't go anywhere that has more than 20° on a 4 day, and usually decide not to do that and go for coffee instead!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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The crazy thing about the St Anton incident is that it is not some folk who have just turned up in town wanting to tick off a run on a list but a local guide who will have heard all the warnings, seen the heavy snow & wind and knows that the Törli route is a potential death trap (self releasing slides happen even with stable snow conditions in an obvious terrain trap) yet decided to take clients down the route. A bag is no help under 4m of snow! https://alloffpiste.com/torli-kapall-stanton/ . Sad for all involved.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@cameronphillips2000, well-put comment at the end of that article
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You still have an "old snow problem" with permanent weak points in the snowpack, warned the expert. Although this is "getting better by the day", the situation remains precarious for about a week – even if stage 3, i.e. considerable danger, will be issued on Monday. Experience has shown that most avalanche events actually happen at this danger level. |
I don't ski off-piste now. But when I did, I got the impression that the snowheads I skied with were well aware that Level 3 was to be respected seriously. I don't recall being aware that "most avalanche events actually happen at this danger level", though.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I have seen a number of opinion pieces that suggest people do not pay much attention to the avi level definitions, and see 3 as being “medium”, or something like that, because it is mid-way between 1 & 5. Reading https://www.avalanches.org/standards/avalanche-danger-scale/ is a good reminder of what the levels really mean.
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You know it makes sense.
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@achilles, as I understand it, it’s not that more avalanches happen on a 3 day rather that there are more fatalities as people are more cautious on cat 4 day
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@brownie, That is my understanding too.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Skiing when there are avalanche 4 warnings is not tragic, its idiotic.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Scarlet, that's a very good link.
@brownie, that's not what the graphics in Scarlet's link show - though I can well accept that by day three a mixture of over confidence and impatience to ski off piste adds to the risk.
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@achilles, more (and bigger) avalanches will typically happen on a day rated 3 compared with 2 or 1, but fewer (and smaller) than 4 or 5 (all on average obviously).
However, disproportionately more people will ski dangerous terrain on a 3 day versus a 4 or 5 day.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| achilles wrote: |
@Scarlet, that's a very good link.
@brownie, that's not what the graphics in Scarlet's link show - though I can well accept that by day three a mixture of over confidence and impatience to ski off piste adds to the risk. |
It’s exactly what the link shows….it’s fatalities it shows by risk category rather than number of avalanches
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| Arno wrote: |
@achilles, more (and bigger) avalanches will typically happen on a day rated 3 compared with 2 or 1, but fewer (and smaller) than 4 or 5 (all on average obviously).
However, disproportionately more people will ski dangerous terrain on a 3 day versus a 4 or 5 day. |
And there are many more L3 days than L4 days over the season
Part of the problem might also be that Level 3 covers so many things. Level 3 due to fresh snow wind can be managed with experience because the problems can be seen. Level 3 due to old snow problems/persistent weak layers is a whole other matter and the only real way to manage it is to ski super conservatively for months until the thaw cycle does its thing…
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@clarky999, yep, that stuff is usually covered in the report but the kind of person who takes 3 as being a sign of a good powder day probably doesn’t spend a lot of time on the details
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I expect most people reading this are aware that there is also a descriptive word for each danger level - 1 = low, 2 = moderate, 3 = considerable, 4 = high, 5 = v. high.
One of our guides when he's explaining the different levels to guests uses an analogy - if there was a considerable risk (or even a moderate risk) of being attacked by a shark whilst swimming, would you still be happy to swim in the sea.
It helps people realise that 3 is not a simply middle/medium value.
Of course, the people who come and book a freeride course with us are generally people who are aware of the dangers and want to learn how to minimise the risks.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Arno wrote: |
@achilles, more (and bigger) avalanches will typically happen on a day rated 3 compared with 2 or 1, but fewer (and smaller) than 4 or 5 (all on average obviously).
However, disproportionately more people will ski dangerous terrain on a 3 day versus a 4 or 5 day. |
Not clear what you mean (which is not meant to be a challenge). Do you mean 3rd, 4th, 5th day of a holiday or a ski tour?
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@achilles, no - the avalanche danger scale
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Arno, ah, with you now. Thanks.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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In the last 4 or 5 years I've concluded that there is no answer to the avalanche conundrum.
We talk endlessly over the subject here on SHs and other platforms. The spectrum of opinion just on this thread is mind boggling.
The interpretation of the international avvy scale is worthy of PhD study. One thing I have done for years is to disregard Level5. This means 3 from 4 has far greater significance.
About six years ago I watched a guy get flushed (just like toilet paper down the loo) down the east face of Schilthorn. I was along way away, ironically had no phone with me but screamed very loudly
grösse lawine! Within a second a dozen or more folk were around me calling in the emergency.
The guy sadly was dead, a day with a level 3 risk.
Perhaps that guys death keeps me safe.....safer, we really shouldn't need a lesson as vile as I experienced.
Just accept that it can go on a level3 day and don't be anywhere near when it does.
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In the last 4 or 5 years I've concluded that there is no answer to the avalanche conundrum.
We talk endlessly over the subject here on SHs and other platforms. The spectrum of opinion just on this thread is mind boggling.
The interpretation of the international avvy scale is worthy of PhD study. One thing I have done for years is to disregard Level5. This means 3 from 4 has far greater significance.
About six years ago I watched a guy get flushed (just like toilet paper down the loo) down the east face of Schilthorn. I was a long way away, ironically had no phone with me but screamed very loudly
grösse lawine! Within a second a dozen or more folk were around me calling in the emergency.
The guy sadly was dead, a day with a level 3 risk.
Perhaps that guys death keeps me safe.....safer, we really shouldn't need a lesson as vile as I experienced.
Just accept that it can go on a level3 day and don't be anywhere near when it does.
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You know it makes sense.
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I remember reading a great article on avalanche risk and group dynamics on wildsnow.com a few years back, all the points mentioned by @valais2, come into it. Also, a simple change in the language used, can make a big difference. A change from, “This looks good. We should ski it.” to “Does this look good? Should we ski it?” really alters how the group approaches the next descent.
https://www.wildsnow.com/12396/5-tips-avalanche-safety/
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Apologies for posting twice couldn't see how to remove the second load.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Was with another ex - instructor mate in my local area (Brand which is adjacent to Montafon)..we were both carrying off piste gear and the warning was „only“ Stufe 3. Even so, after inspection we gave the local off piste valley (the Lorenzital) a miss because we decided it there was a quantifiable if small risk…as was pointed out on another thread such conservative calls are easier when you live in the Alps as we can always go back and do it tomorrow or next week or whenever..bytw the same applies to decisions on other mountain sports..indeed I abandoned a mountain walk last week which I probably would have continued had I been (as for many years when I was younger) visiting on my annual holiday..I did the same a couple of times last summer due to danger from lightning strikes on the metal cables etc..(one was the Hohe Ifen in Kleinwalsertal where the standard route leading to the summit has a relatively long & non avoidable cable) + there is significant iron ware on the normal descent to the Schwarzwasserhütte..I might well have taken the risk, though, had it been my only chance of making the summit on an annual holiday…
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I should point out my response (despite the digressions into summer walking) is topical..we decided against the Lorenzital today…
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I used to fly motorised paragliders. We always talked of risk and reward. We generally.knew the risks and people decided how far they'd push it. Sadly, 6 of the people I used to fly with have lost their lives to the sport and many more I'd chatted to on forums.
Extreme sports bring extreme rewards and have extreme risks.
The idea of group psychology is huge. It works in many ways from feeling secure with more, showing off to otherd and the cautious one holding back the more risk averse.
There is a saying in aviation. There are old pilots and the are bold pilots. But there are no old, bold pilots........
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Very good discussion of Level 3 and its psychology.
I went out with an excellent and seasoned guide, into the Faverges area, which has seen instructor/guide fatalities. We dug pits and ruminated....one thing he said was 'Level 3 is meaningless if you are trying to make a decision about 'this slope, right now'...level 3 refers to a General State in a large 'province' of snow, not the SPECIFIC RISK in a SPECIFIC LOCATION. There are locations which carry much higher than some notion of Level 3 risk, during a general 'Level 3' warning period, simply due to the location, the topography and the specific history of deposition and freeze/thaw cycle. The guide I was with said - you need to KNOW, really really KNOW a place to even consider skiing on a Level 3 day. He then pointed out various locations around us which had specific features....southern aspect, wind rotor over a col leading to hard crust formation and then heavy deposition...and so on. Level 3 with a general wave of an arm over the whole vista....and then specific areas which are off the scale unstable.
The comment about high risk sport - absolutely. I know of at least ten deaths in the Alps, in Southern Hemisphere and the Great Ranges from avalanches triggered way way above the victims. In one case, rockfall from an unstable spire loading up a lower slope and bang, the lot went. Just wrong place, wrong time... We were doing summer DH in Vercorin and hooning down a fireroad and a rock the size of a minibus came thundering through the forest, bouncing like a giant golfball. If we'd been a 100m metres down the road we too would have been in the wrong place at the wrong time.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Just to reinforce the message, Stufe 3 is NOT an innocuous average between „nothing much“ (Stufe 1) and „imminently dangerous“ (Stufe 5). Rather, the German for Stufe 3 is „erheblich“ which translates as „substantial.“
In summary - Stufe/level 3 means „substantial risk“ of an avalanche..
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@valais2, good points about local knowledge. Without knowing how a slope has developed over the season you simply don't know what it's current state is... so every time you are entering into a completely unknown situation. Usually works out ok (it has for me), but sometimes luck runs out.
The longer I look at this, the more I realise I don't know enough to assess what is safe and what isn't
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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These are indeed very sad and sobering stories, but I wonder how dangerous off piste skiing really is, in comparison to other hazardous activities. Hundreds of motor cyclists die in the UK every year, and thousands more are seriously injured. Horse riding is notoriously dangerous (remember when one of the government's senior advisers on drugs noted that more kids died from riding accidents than from Ecstasy - there was such an outcry at this heretical truth that he had to resign).
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It was a hard slab formed by the recent wind on a PWL above 2200. This was mentioned in the bulletin that morning.
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