 Poster: A snowHead
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There have been quite a few posts here about cold feet and hands, and lots of advice regarding what to wear on hands and do to boots. And some posts about Reynauds, a problem which I suffer from. But the advice so far about hands and feet mostly doesn’t address the physiology of the problem.
I am a climber, MTBer and skier - winter climbing is notorious for nasty cold injuries, and I am no exception. So….what does research really tell us about how to protect fingers, hands and toes. Firstly, some things need to be done BEFORE you leave the breakfast table. Secondly, you need to understand how the body responds to cold. If you get these two right, you will be FAR more comfortable, even in very low temps.
BEFORE you leave the breakfast table:
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Know what’s happening to the weather - windchill is significant. There’s an excellent table in this:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1105416/22220916_Chapter_41_Annex_A_Commander_s_guide_to_preventing_heat_illness_-_V1.2_September_2022.pdf
Look at the predicted temps, and take into account windchill. That tells you how much to pack (spare dry gloves? Thick fleece neckie?) and what to wear. In Dec it gets a LOT colder towards the end of the day….dress for that, not the bright sunshine you see out of the kitchen window.
Also over breakfast, it seems that good carbohydrate intake decreases the vasoconstriction which makes us feel cold:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK232852
EAT WELL at breakfast and eat the right things which keep the fires burning.
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STAY DRY. Heat transfer is massively increased when things are wet. Dry boot liners every night. Even a hint of damp will trigger the body’s cold response. Ours go on the radiator the moment we come in each evening. Gloves too. Merino glove liners work mostly to keep your hands dry, by wicking away sweat, and remaining warm when wet. They are worth their weight in gold and are a cheap, low tech, environmentally friendly solution.
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Fool the body into thinking it’s warm outside - that way, cold-response vasoconstriction is prevented or reduced, blood supply to extremities is maintained, and toes and fingers stay warm. Heat gets lost from the body particularly from the forearms, head and neck. Most now wear a helmet, but buying one with closable vents is a really good idea. Do you remember that when you get too hot in a room the first thing you do is open clothes at your neckline? It’s no accident. The neck has massive blood supply to the brain, and it runs mostly close the surface. So think in reverse….want to stay warm? Really keep your NECK WELL INSULATED particularly at that gap at the rear:
https://vitalityintegrative.com/keep-your-neck-warm/
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This really makes a big difference. It stops the cold response from being triggered and keeps the blood flowing to the fingers and toes. On a cold belay, where frostbite is a real risk, really snuggling up at the neckline makes a tremendous difference. Heat loss genuinely is reduced massively, and the body does not feel the need to protect itself.
Then two further measures, which seem counterintuitive, but KEEP YOUR CORE WARM. If you keep your chest and trunk warm, the body again thinks it is warm outside, and keeps the blood flowing to the extremities.
KEEP YOUR WRISTS AND FOREARMS WARM. Again, the blood supply is very near the surface, and although it doesn’t seem a big deal to have a draught at your wrists, this will likely trigger the cold response…and blam, cold fingers.
So….pay particularly attention to keeping the wrists sealed and the neck really sealed up, particularly at the rear, but ‘neck all over’ is vital. I see people complaining of cold with a fleece hat on and their helmet perched unsafely on top, but with no neck covering. Useless, in so many ways.
3
Do not wear anything which CONSTRICTS hands and feet. Ski boots must not be too constricting over the top of the foot, where the major anterior lateral artery carries blood into the toes. This is a problem for a lot of skiers. We want that third buckle snug, but the moment it is over-tight to compensate for poor fitting boots, cold toes are usually the result. Similarly do not wear gloves which are tight. Best to have looser gloves and merino liners. That makes a huge difference.
So…the really key thing is keep dry and keep the blood flowing. Raynauds research suggests that it is triggered by experience of quick and considerable temperature change. So in the cafe park, stay covered. Don’t get chilled faffing around getting ready - stay covered up the moment you get in the cold. Use gloves when carrying skis and poles to the lift.
These techniques really work, and are grounded in research about the way our bodies work. For climbers, it can mean keeping fingers and toes. For skiers it can mean being comfortable and snug, versus miserable and cold. For Reynauds sufferers, it can make a real difference. Any feedback or refinement of all this welcome…..
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Sun 29-01-23 14:18; edited 4 times in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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The efficacy of jackets to do up properly round the neck varies a lot, and you really need to try them on. Same applies to sailing jackets - it's a very individual thing. I wear a fleece necker a good deal of the time skiing and sailing, even when it's not very cold, but then I'm a wimp. But if it's wet/snowing the necker needs to be kept dry, hence the need for the right zip etc. A thin balaclava under helmet helps to keep the breeze out of the gaps.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
windchill is significant
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Only if you are naked.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Also, [spelling pedant, only really as I keep getting it wrong myself] Raynaud's [/pedantry]
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@valais2, Excellent, insightful, and detailed post. It is clear that you have put a lot of thought and research into this subject and then applied the insights successfully in the real world. And I am sure it will be very helpful to many who feel the cold.
What is clear is there is a lot of variability in both perception and response to cold. I see this in my own family. I feel warm and comfortable with a lot less insulation/layers than others in the family. And youngest son even more so, he wears shorts pretty much regardless of weather and mostly even does so when when going out for dinner in a ski resort. My wife and eldest are the opposite - and follow much of your techniques above to manage and mitigate their reaction to the the cold. We put quite a lot of thought and effort into doing so as otherwise they can end up pretty miserable.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Sun 29-01-23 13:02; edited 1 time in total
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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I have poor circulation - can have fingers white to the knuckles in my living room.
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@under a new name, The problem is that yes, all the windchill calculations are assuming the effects on bare human skin at +/- 37C, so are only directly relevant to exposed skin, but it doesn't completely go away just because you have a coat on. So yeah, look at the wind forecast of course, and the higher the wind the more you will wear.
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@under a new name, …argh….yes!….I just do it automatically…now corrected, many thanks.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@valais2, I don't suffer from Raynaud's or anything, but also ski, winter mountaineer, ski tour, and mountain bike, and in the past used to ice-climb. I have never really thought it through, but everything you suggest is pretty much what I have come to do over the years, so for anyone who has issues your advice is excellent.
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Fingers in gloves on ski lifts can be a problem for me. Solved by having a thin inner layer - though I now prefe the Canadian riggers' mits that The Piste Office used to sell - and maybe still does.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Chaletbeauroc, agreed….but the table shows how you can look at +2 on the weather report but not all sites have the ‘feels like’ which accommodates windchill. I was on the glacier at LDA in minus 5 but it was blowing a hooley - and frost bite on my nose was the result - friend guide had a frozen patch on his cheek - nasty. Windchill is not just an issue for naked people. The chart shows the kind of effect there is, and just rams it home….
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@valais2, @Chaletbeauroc, well, sort of, no, not really. Wind chill is somewhat debated. And anyway, if you are appropriately insulated, irrelvant. Do you feel it in your house?*
But, yes, necks and wrists, definitely, keep them warm.
* the answer is no ...
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| under a new name wrote: |
Wind chill is somewhat debated. And anyway, if you are appropriately insulated, irrelvant. Do you feel it in your house?*
* the answer is no ... |
So you don't think the central heating's having to work harder when it's blowing a gale vs. when it's a balmy still day at the same ambient air temperature?
How well-insulated your house must be to have zero heat loss.
If you accept that however well insulated something is there is always going to be some level of heat loss it follows that the rate at which the escaping heat (i.e. the warmer air) moves away from the surface the greater the heat loss will be. That's the entire basis of wind chill and will always have some effect whenever there's a temperature difference between an object and the air that surrounds it.
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You know it makes sense.
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@Chaletbeauroc, indeed. Thermodynamics with no magic energy or processes.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| under a new name wrote: |
@valais2, @Chaletbeauroc, well, sort of, no, not really. Wind chill is somewhat debated. And anyway, if you are appropriately insulated, irrelvant. Do you feel it in your house?*
But, yes, necks and wrists, definitely, keep them warm.
* the answer is no ... |
Ummm yes you do feel it in the house. That is how fans work. And if you lived in an old house like mine you would definitely feel wind chill, where the room is 20 degrees but where you are sitting feels really cold. Some of you is always exposed, always moist, and will be affected by windchill. And the wind chill can also have an effect on the performance of your clothing as the differential between external and internal temperature will be increased by wind, so any insulation has to work harder. The main effect is likely to be related to condensation/evaporation, but there are other factors also. I agree with you on almost everything you post, but not this one!
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Poster: A snowHead
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In 1995 I was preparing to go to live in Mongolia, and asked my local outdoor supplier about the best gloves to keep fingers warm. The response was, keep your core warm and you won’t need the best gloves on the market, as the body is less likely to withdraw heat from the extremities.
That advice has served me well then and since.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
Ummm yes you do feel it in the house. That is how fans work. And if you lived in an old house like mine you would definitely feel wind chill, where the room is 20 degrees but where you are sitting feels really cold.
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But a fan is introducing a wind into the house - and yes, makes a huge difference. And if you are near a draught in an old house (I spent last week in a very old house in Worcestershire with lots of draughts) that's letting the wind in and poorly insulated walls will let heat out.
[quote]
Hmm.
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And the wind chill can also have an effect on the performance of your clothing as the differential between external and internal temperature will be increased by wind, so any insulation has to work harder.
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I'm puzzling at that one. Certainly the chilling wind will find any bare skin and any gaps in the clothing (round necks, ears, wrists etc) but if you were completely enveloped in windproof clothing (like, for example, in a good mountain tent, or an igloo) would your insulation really have to "work harder" than in the same ambient temperature with no wind?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@pam w, We are talking about wind chill here. So yes any wind introduced or allowed in would have an effect. If there is no wind, indoors or out, by default there is no wind chill!
With regards to waterproof clothing or a tent, the effect is there too. Not least as most are breathable and also water will condensate on the surface when the clothing/tent is warmer than the surrounding environment. When there is wind, that water will evaporate more quickly pulling more energy out of the warmer surface. So the exterior of the clothing/tent will be colder than it would otherwise be. The means that the difference in temperature between external and internal would be greater, so it will take more energy to maintain a given internal temperature. Or more insulation.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Windchill “feel like” temperature is the most useless indicator for me.
There’re clothings for insulation. There also clothings/measures for wind blocking. You can’t put on enough insulation to “feel” warm in a blizzard. But you can if you put on proper wind blocking clothing (and seal off those “gaps”) without needing to add more insulation.
The “feel like temperature” is lumping the 2 effects together and lead to ineffective solutions. (E.g. putting on tons of insulation layer on windy days)
What’s next, another “feel like temperature” that lumps humidity into that soup too? 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@abc, I sort of agree. If I know the likely temperature, likely wind, and what I will be doing I can dress appropriately. But for people who don’t spend much time especially in the mountains “feels like” can be a good guide. We get it a lot on the mountains here in Scotland where people get in trouble because they have not prepared for how much colder they will get with the wind. I have had to interrupt what I am doing on the mountain quite few times to help people in that situation.
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In addition to the tips from @valais2, I would add the following:
1. Whenever removing your gloves, put them inside your jacket to keep them warm.
2. Wear mitts rather than gloves, preferably with deep cuffs that come up over the cuffs of your jacket.
3. Wear good ski socks that aren’t too thick.
4. Wear a snood/neck warmer. I particularly like one that’s part fleece/part microfibre (like Buff make), as the thin microfibre part can go up over your head and ears and round your chin and fit comfortably under your helmet.
5. Wear a helmet with ear protectors (preferably detachable for spring skiing).
6. Wear a merino wool base layer.
7. Wear goggles rather than shades.
8. Carry hand warmers (e.g. Little Hotties).
9. Carry a spare thin layer.
10. Carry a spare pare of gloves (one pair between the whole group should suffice).
And as @valais2 said, ensure gloves, socks, and boots aren’t too tight.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Sun 29-01-23 20:02; edited 3 times in total
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https://imgur.com/a/0DB3gNg
Here's my frostbite injury resulting from too long spent at the rappel into the Cosmiques Couloir last week in -30 C temperatures. I did not realise there was a major problem with my feet until 6 hours later when I stopped skiing and removed them from my boots.
I highly recommend avoiding frostbite. I'm still in hospital 9 days later. I've been lucky to avoid amputation due to fantastic treatment involving 3 hours per day in a hyperbaric oxygen chamber and vein-eating vasodilators.
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Good thread @valais2, and useful experience always welcomed.
My favourite emergency food that may be of interest, "cooking" dates, just the simple block from baking supplies isle in supermarkets. Small, convenient, long dated usually  can feed quite a few in strife or just needing something, doesn't really matter if they get squashed or damaged etc
https://www.verywellfit.com/dates-nutrition-facts-calories-and-their-health-benefits-4110158 obviously it's positive report but may interest some as to energy mineral balance etc.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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ouch ouch ouch @JackSkier,  hope for the best outcome for you.
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@JackSkier, bloody hell!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@JackSkier, all the best for a speedy recovery. And great that you posted it. This stuff needs to be taken seriously.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@JackSkier, ....sh+t...that's really grim, are you in Sallanches?
So glad you got to the specialists. They are brilliant in Sallanches and along that valley. How are your bloods? It's looking healthy given the severity of the frostbite. Have they managed to stop infection getting into your system? Very best wishes for the next phase of recovery - do you need any books or films sending out?
Re not realising that's the really terrifying thing about frostbite, you don't feel it, since the nerves freeze. then die and stop sending signals. I had frostnip to a toe because of ill-fitting boots, and then I had a small incident with my nose - nothing compared with the trial you are going through. In minus 20 with blasting wind on top, I felt nothing, but the guide I was with said '...your nostril has a line of white on it, let's get down out of this wind...' and I said '...and your cheek has a centimetre patch of ice...argh...'. Even that small line on my nose was extremely painful the next week so I feel huge sympathy for anyone suffering something more serious.
When you recover you can read the story of Jamie (Andrew) and Jamie (Fisher).
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@JackSkier, just to add my thoughts to the rest - what a terrifying business. Fingers crossed for a complete recovery.
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You know it makes sense.
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Thank you for the wishes, everyone.
@valais2, I'm in Geneva, and should be out in a few days. The hospital here and in Sallanches are indeed the best places in the world to be treated for frostbite. There has been major progress since that photo was taken - this is my foot now: https://imgur.com/a/6SBthzb
Should be back on snow for spring once the scarring is complete, with heated socks to prevent re-exposure to cold. The story of Jamie Andrews is terrifying.
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Sun 29-01-23 22:29; edited 1 time in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@JackSkier, best wishes in your recovery.
Frostbite is a scary thing.
I was once in a group skiing when one person in the group got frostbite without realizing it. She didn’t loosen her boots during lunch because “I didn’t feel the need”. When she took the boots off at the end of the day, she couldn’t feel anything… 
My boots fit quite well. But I sometimes take them off during lunch, especially on cold days (carry a slipper in my pack pack). In the back of my mind, I just want to know my feet are “alive”.
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Mon 30-01-23 0:07; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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@JackSkier, ....EXCELLENT!....you have all your toenails....brilliant result. Really looking good.
Get the boots really punched at the front? And check the constriction over the instep? I am investigating some Dalbello Panterras for inbounds since they do seem to be roomy and with a very high instep, yet a good pull into the heel pocket.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Wow. Thanks everyone who has contributed- very useful conversation here.
All the best @JackSkier, wishing you a speedy and complete recovery. A salutary warning for all of us.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@JackSkier, yikes! Speedy recovery!
@valais2, @Chaletbeauroc, my argument is not so much with the concept of windchill but with its ridiculous implementation on certain websites. "Feels like" only "feels like" if you are naked (and standing still). Not in e.g. my 4 layers of insulation and hardshell outers, gloves, helmet and goggles and travelling at 50-60kph on my skis. It's a ridiculous number.
@zikomo,
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We get it a lot on the mountains here in Scotland where people get in trouble because
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... because they think it totally reasonable to attempt to go up Ben Nevis in shorts and flipflops ...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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The triggering of Raynaud's is a question. My better half suffers badly - to the extent of heated glove liners and heated socks, without which she would not be skiing.
But she can trigger it washing salad in the summer in tepid water ... last time she asked a medic it was still rather a mystery.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@under a new name, Yes I have seen some pretty ridiculous and scary clothing choices in the Scottish mountains! Normally though it is "trendy" trainers and thin cotton trousers and the like. The point I am making is I often see people appropriately attired for the air temperature, but not for the effect of wind chill on the higher ground. Wind chill is a real thing and whilst you are right that the "feels like" number is not that useful for the more experienced, it at least gives the numpties a signal that they need warmer clothing than the air temperature suggests.
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@zikomo, if someone needs that sort of signal they shouldn't be there in the first place 
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| zikomo wrote: |
| The point I am making is I often see people appropriately attired for the air temperature, but not for the effect of wind chill on the higher ground. |
On Friday, I was on the Chair going up the Tignes Glacier in about - 12 deg (felt lower with wind chill), sat next to a large yellow chicken! 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Has your doc changed your meds recently? You might suggest a lower dose…
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@JackSkier, Jaysus wept!!...all the best fella, get well soon.
This is a great thread, over the past 10 years I've dropped about 9 stone (put a little back on but it was needed) and since I've lost the insulation I struggle with the cold, especially my hands.
I've a pair of really good Hestras and twinned with the recommended liners they help..but only just.
I was in Norway a few weeks ago and I was genuinely concerned for my hands it was dreadful...I'm off to Ischgl next week and I'm looking for any help I can get, as others have said chairlifts can be torturous and it can be debilitating.
Any other tips??
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FAQ
. I can't help wondering how long is too long to hang around at 3600m and -30º. Probably not very long at all? 
