 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@davidof, modern all season tyres that meet the 3PMSF standard are now so good in snow that in my view anyone who is going to be making a habit of driving out to ski resorts should consider fitting them to their car all year round. Very useful in the UK too when we do get snow and ice (which surprisingly does happen in Winter  )
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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But why would a hard-working family from W France want to fork out £600 for a set of winters that they 'probably' won't actually need?
It's OK for Mr Olympics to pontificate and be glad about the misfortune, injury or death of his countrymen, but he can defray the cost of his winters over the whole season in the mountains...and if he was any good, the cost is likely not a consideration anyway.
So 50% of French families probably won't be able to afford to go skiing if this added expense is imposed. Many attempt to do it on a shoestring, as it is. Talk about killing the goose that lays the golden egg. I hope his post-competition mountain business doesn't depend on tourism!! 
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Same here this weekend, mostly not Austrian numberplates...
| luigi wrote: |
| But why would a hard-working family from W France want to fork out £600 for a set of winters that they 'probably' won't actually need? |
To avoid not just inconveniencing but also endangering themselves and everyone else on the road. If they're driving into the Alps they probably WILL need winter tyres even if it doesn't snow (the braking distance of summer tyres is compromised below +8°C). Also more like €400 than £600. Anyone who can't or won't afford them should use public transport instead.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Mon 23-01-23 18:16; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@luigi, but they can buy snow chains for 5% of the cost of snow tyres, to be legal as well, but the problem is always that people will not put them on thinking that they can hopefully make it without them.
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@luigi, or catch the train and save the planet at the same time.
Not a lot of sympathy tbh: you need some sort of tyres: why not buy all season?
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| clarky999 wrote: |
Same here this weekend, mostly not Austrian numberplates...
| luigi wrote: |
| But why would a hard-working family from W France want to fork out £600 for a set of winters that they 'probably' won't actually need? |
To avoid not just inconveniencing but also endangering themselves and everyone else on the road. If they're driving into the Alps they probably WILL need winter tyres even if it doesn't snow (the braking distance of summer tyres is compromised below +8°C). Also more like €400 than £600. Anyone who can't or won't afford them should use public transport instead. |
Or not bother?! Adieu tourisme d'hiver!! 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Arctic Roll wrote: |
@luigi, or catch the train and save the planet at the same time.
Not a lot of sympathy tbh: you need some sort of tyres: why not buy all season? |
You buy a car with tyres on it, you don't change them until they wear out, I suppose?? 
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@luigi, I think you are missing a few points here not least that those causing the problems are experiencing them as well.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Anyone who owns a car will likely have to buy new tyres at some point so that £600 is coming whether you like it or not.
So buy the winter tyres and swap them over a couple of times a year - each set lasts twice as long as only using for 6 months.
So it’s not an extra cost , it’s merely an upfront cost which pays eventually.
And even the smallest bump will cost way more that £600…
And it makes everyone else’s lives better including your own.
Not fitting them and driving into the mountains is frankly really selfish. They should stay at home !
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Well buy decent all seasons then like Michelin Crossclimate (which are badged as a winter tyre that is also suitable in the summer and or wet weather).
No swapping and almost as good as a dedicated winter tyre.
If your old tyres need changing anyway it’s a no brainer.
If the summer tyres are new / nearly new - sell them on eBay to offset the cost of the all seasons.
Modern summer tyres are completely unsuitable for even a dusting of snow. And have poor performance in low temperatures (less than 7C).
The difference the winters make is quite astonishing.
It’s only France where these traffic jams and chaos crop up time and again.
They need to make winters mandatory in the mountains.
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You know it makes sense.
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| sheffskibod wrote: |
Well buy decent all seasons then like Michelin Crossclimate (which are badged as a winter tyre that is also suitable in the summer and or wet weather).
No swapping and almost as good as a dedicated winter tyre.
If your old tyres need changing anyway it’s a no brainer.
If the summer tyres are new / nearly new - sell them on eBay to offset the cost of the all seasons.
Modern summer tyres are completely unsuitable for even a dusting of snow. And have poor performance in low temperatures (less than 7C).
The difference the winters make is quite astonishing.
It’s only France where these traffic jams and chaos crop up time and again.
They need to make winters mandatory in the mountains. |
Obviously these cost considerations mean nothing to you, I get that!
But take an average not-so-well-off French family from Poitiers, the average daily high in Jan is 8C. Jean-Pierre bought his 10 year old Renault Laguna Estate a few years back. The dealer who sold it to him had just put a new set of summer tyres on it, as no-one fits winter tyres in Poitiers. He has swapped the tyres round...front to rear ...as he was going to get 100,000km out of the rears and only 40,000 out of the fronts, if not. This way they will all last about 60,000km before they need changing! 
They set out for their annual ski trip, the car is loaded to the gunwhales with faded 80s fartbags and an assortment of secondhand skis. This is a holiday on a shoestring. They stop at at a hypermarket on the way to load up with cheap cheese and pate.
They drive up to their shoebox studio apartment with double sofabed & bunks in the hallway, normally on dry roads, but once a season it might snow enough on a Saturday to cause some trouble. They have a set of €25 chains they bought some years ago on board to show the Gendarmes if they get stopped.
They pic-nic on the mountain in one of those big rooms set aside for this.
They don't spend huge amount in resort, but the apartment rental and the money spent on the family liftpass is the lifeblood to the mountain community. The pisteurs, lifties, admin staff, cleaners all receive a wage that makes their life in the mountains viable. They support their families with this. They spend their wages in local businesses. The baseline of the whole mountain economy depends on these French families turning up every year on their summer tyres!
Now you want them to shell out €600 on winter/CrossClimate tyres, but that's their liftpass money!! 
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Mon 23-01-23 19:28; edited 2 times in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@luigi,
Costs about $50 or about 30 minutes with a wrench and a jack.
Can afford a ski holiday, can't afford $50 to get there a bit more safely? Does that really apply to anyone?
What do you think it costs in money (or worse) when you slide off the road, or worse still into someone else?
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Mon 23-01-23 19:19; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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What would these same humble folk do when they slide off the road? Pull it out with a length of wool taken from the bottom of their hand-me-down pullovers?
If appropriate preparation is beyond them, why should anyone else be inconvenienced?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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It would be nice if UK car dealers gave the option of the new cars they sell being fitted with all season tyres.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@luigi,
You're right - it costs me $100 because my winter tires aren't on rims (<$50 if they are)
I'll avoid your stereotyping, and as you note it is certainly not great to wish anyone slides off the road (I'll confess, I've not bothered reading the originally posted article), but simply point out that ski holidays aren't exactly an essential to anyone, and if you do not have the necessary equipment/experience to get up a snowy/icy mountain without being a risk to yourself or anyone else, then either:
a) you get the right equipment/experience
b) you hire someone who has got the right equipment/experience
c) don't go (and potentially kill/main yourself and/or other people)
It's kind of like saying windscreen wipers are expensive, so because you live in a sunny place, you shouldn't need to bother with them when you go somewhere rainy.
Really not that hard is it?
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Mon 23-01-23 20:55; edited 1 time in total
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Luigi you are talking a complete load of rubbish - either you are trolling or you haven’t thought it through
1 if you are using your winter tyres you are not using your summers - yes there is the investment cost but the additional running cost is zero
2 second hand steel rims from breakers in france cost very little - around 50 euros for 4
3 the cost of an accident and damage to a car is far greater than the cost of tyres and rims
4 I change winter tyres and rims without cost myself many many times
5 storage can be a pain but as a youngster even I had them in a small flat - 4 tyres on rims go nicely under a double bed
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Alastair Pink wrote: |
| It would be nice if UK car dealers gave the option of the new cars they sell being fitted with all season tyres. |
Do you mean all-weather? (I'll duck, as may be kicking off a whole other flame war there!  )
You can get some Subaru's here with all weather tires
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| stuarth wrote: |
@luigi,
You're right - it costs me $100 because my winter tires aren't on rims (<$50 if they are)
I'll avoid your stereotyping, and as you note it is certainly not great to wish anyone slides off the road (I'll confess, I've not bothered reading the originally posted article), but simply point out that ski holidays aren't exactly an essential to anyone, and if you do not have the necessary equipment/experience to get up a snowy/icy mountain without being a risk to yourself or anyone else, then either:
a) you get the right equipment/experience
b) you hire someone who has got the right equipment/experience
c) don't go (and potentially kill/main yourself and/or other people)
It's kind of like saying windscreen wipers are expensive, so though you might live in a sunny place, you shouldn't need to bother with them when you go somewhere rainy.
Really not that hard is it? |
Damn, you missed out option d, available to French subscribers only
d) you give it a go anyway, because you've never had a problem in the past and you have those lucky chains on board!
You've never been to a small French family ski resort in February when the French families turn up en masse, have you?? Let me tell you, it's not helicopter transfers and Chevy Tahoes like in Whistler!!
C'mon, even secondhand cars in Poitiers come with windscreen wipers!!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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When you include the cost and inconvenience of an accident as you head down the hill on the way home in your calculations its a no brainer.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
What do you think it costs in money (or worse) when you slide off the road, or worse still into someone else?
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and mostly they don't. I've said before here that in Les Saisies (where the vast majority of the visitors are French) a high proportion of cars around the village on a snowy day will have snow chains on. But snowy days are few and far between, and snowy Saturday fewer and further between. Mostly it's fine.. Few people are inconvenienced beyond a hold-up on the road. Most collisions are slow speed. It's the 140 kph "8 hours from Calais to resort" merchants which are a FAR greater risk to others than a French family on summer tyres in the mountains.
There's a lot of judgemental huffing and puffing going on on this thread!
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You know it makes sense.
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| stuarth wrote: |
| Alastair Pink wrote: |
| It would be nice if UK car dealers gave the option of the new cars they sell being fitted with all season tyres. |
Do you mean all-weather? (I'll duck, as may be kicking off a whole other flame war there! )
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Nope, I mean all season tyres (which is the common terminology over this side of the pond). https://www.mytyres.co.uk/All-Season-Tyres.html
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Alastair Pink wrote: |
| @davidof, modern all season tyres that meet the 3PMSF standard are now so good in snow that in my view anyone who is going to be making a habit of driving out to ski resorts should consider fitting them to their car all year round. Very useful in the UK too when we do get snow and ice (which surprisingly does happen in Winter ) |
The irony here is that France (through Michelin) is realistically one of the absolute leaders in this field, current offering is very clever sidestep in pure design thinking. Others seem to be following in their path, perhaps choice and unit cost will bring this sensible route into more common specification regarding factory fit original. Those tyre contracts are huge for factory supply chain.
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Poster: A snowHead
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When so many manufacturers cut corners to save pennies to the extent of having either "space saver" spare tyres (which don't save space in my experience) or no spare at all, expecting them to fit anything but the cheapest tyres is a triumph of hope over expectation.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@stuarth, your link https://www.carpages.ca/blog/all-season-vs-all-weather-tires/ claims differences between the terms all season and all weather tyres/tires which I think don't apply in Europe. e.g "all season" tyres in Europe carry the 3PMSF logo (which your reference says only "all weather tyres" have), they are definitely suited to winter and snow (some of the best all season tyres almost do as well in snow tests as winter tyres) and are definitely not just Mud and Snow rated.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@Alastair Pink,
Ah, ok. I was looking at the bit in your link that talked about wet weather performance of all-seasons and the M+S rating, which here would be an all season.
I think what I was calling all-weather are what you were calling all seasons (the one with the 3PMSF logo)
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| pam w wrote: |
| When so many manufacturers cut corners to save pennies to the extent of having either "space saver" spare tyres (which don't save space in my experience) or no spare at all, expecting them to fit anything but the cheapest tyres is a triumph of hope over expectation. |
As i understand it, the shift would be something in the order of less than ten pounds a tyre to them (we obviously see retail pricing of a premium brand in second fit marketplace) that is a big deal for a manufacturer, but would fit in with luigi metric for general supply in being something "dissolvable" at sales point.
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| pam w wrote: |
| When so many manufacturers cut corners to save pennies to the extent of having either "space saver" spare tyres (which don't save space in my experience) or no spare at all, expecting them to fit anything but the cheapest tyres is a triumph of hope over expectation. |
I'd like to see dealers/manufacturers offering all season tyres as an (additional small cost) factory fitted option. After all they often seem to have no difficulty in offering other additional cost options e.g larger diameter (than standard fit) low profile wheels.
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| pam w wrote: |
| When so many manufacturers cut corners to save pennies to the extent of having either "space saver" spare tyres (which don't save space in my experience) or no spare at all, expecting them to fit anything but the cheapest tyres is a triumph of hope over expectation. |
Sorry but that's nonsense. All manufacturers fit premium tyres as standard at the factory and most have an approved list of very specific premium tyres that have been tested with a range of suspension and wheel setups to give the appropriate quality of ride and handling. No manufacturer is going to spend billions on R&D to then f*ck it all up by putting cheap tyres on.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@luigi,
sorry must come back
1 running cost is zero. that's the key point. In ten years you buy 2 sets of tyres. Having two sets of tyres winters and summers, in ten years you buy 2 sets of tyres. Extra cost = zero.
2 I am making a different point. Only additional cost is 50 euros for a set of steel rims. Less than a meal for four. If you need chains, you need chains, what has climate change got to do with it.
3 you can know all you want, but you won't get up from our place to the village on summers when there's an inch of fresh on the road. And that's a fact.
4 I am making a different point. You can change them for no cost. Jack up the car, change wheel.
5 good.
AND ... sorry you are COMPLETELY right...no need to have winters at all. I am totally wrong. I am sure that the elderly Merc estate driver who was driving carefully up our hill, making his way on fresh with winters was perfectly happy with the urban back bottom who came round the curve on summers, slid straight over onto the other carriageway and crashed full force into the front of his car. Yep....perfect.
https://www.dreamstime.com/internet-troll-drooling-evil-internet-troll-depiction-isolated-white-background-image128271305
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Mon 23-01-23 22:49; edited 2 times in total
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| Alastair Pink wrote: |
| pam w wrote: |
| When so many manufacturers cut corners to save pennies to the extent of having either "space saver" spare tyres (which don't save space in my experience) or no spare at all, expecting them to fit anything but the cheapest tyres is a triumph of hope over expectation. |
I'd like to see dealers/manufacturers offering all season tyres as an (additional small cost) factory fitted option. After all they often seem to have no difficulty in offering other additional cost options e.g larger diameter (than standard fit) low profile wheels. |
Some manufacturers do - Volvo for one, I believe. In any case, most dealers would be happy to accommodate the change before delivery if you paid the difference in cost plus fitting and balancing. The original tyres can always be sold to someone else or fitted on a used car as part of the preparation process.
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FAQ
