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Cold temperatures and driving

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@ski3, Things have changed over the years ..
"Computer says NO" is all that's going on now.

It makes these auto driven anicdotes so complicated for us simple souls who lived with oily dirt under our finger nails to understand.

We would spend hours down the pub telling those stories about how we got the Vespa going ... or in my case BSA Bantam.

You only had to work out why you were not getting a spark or a spark at the right time. then make sure there was fuel getting in there.

But now its not even worth scratching our heads.

Is there still a thing called CAN Bus? I never worked on it and I've not heard of it for years.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
DrLawn wrote:
We do learn a lot here don't we?
Modern cars are fantastic really ... heated seats ... batteries that last.
I just can't find the hole to put the starting handle into.
Come to think of it.. I can't find the handle.


Certainly the engineering and long trail of development that's involved is impressive. Like any really good product though, the most complex resolved in the best way ultimately go unseen, and so tbey should in bringing this capability to market.

Similar with phones etc, we dont have to know what goes on behind the interface, but appreciate what that can do for us.

Me, an observer, in awe of the thinking and execution of all these things in hard engineering, software, etc etc. But also people working in health on someone else's body and life draws the highest admiration.

We dont ordinarily get to see much in great detail for most things until they go wrong.
ski holidays
 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
DrLawn wrote:
@ski3, Things have changed over the years ..
"Computer says NO" is all that's going on now.

It makes these auto driven anicdotes so complicated for us simple souls who lived with oily dirt under our finger nails to understand.

We would spend hours down the pub telling those stories about how we got the Vespa going ... or in my case BSA Bantam.

You only had to work out why you were not getting a spark or a spark at the right time. then make sure there was fuel getting in there.

But now its not even worth scratching our heads.

Is there still a thing called CAN Bus? I never worked on it and I've not heard of it for years.


Yes, CANbus alive and existing in most cars. Controlled area network, I recall. Method of sending command data down pre existing wire routing to destination. Helps reduce wire, weight etc.

Old system would for example have seperate wires going to each rear light to turn them on. With canbus, they can send a single power supply to all the available lights, then equipped to "call " them to use that power supply through transmission of commsnd to each light unit. Also knows if any specific bulb has failed to inform with dash warning.

This is similar to household distribution of Internet access via powerline nodes you can plug in to move data through the house mains cable system rather than via WiFi.
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Something like this is cheap and cheerful to make a simple battery check. It's the voltage as you turn over the engine to start that is critical. There are other more expensive voltage testers too with lights to indicate whether the battery is good or not (I have such a device). Battery suppliers have even better testers but their results might be biased. wink

https://www.amazon.co.uk/QQEG-Charger-Detector-Charging-Smartphone/dp/B07H2VDPNF/ref=pd_lpo_4?pd_rd_w=IkyzO&content-id=amzn1.sym.2d229339-2f42-4596-a90d-b81a4f52d6d3&pf_rd_p=2d229339-2f42-4596-a90d-b81a4f52d6d3&pf_rd_r=JXA1V1HB57ZAVTEBG12D&pd_rd_wg=cip1N&pd_rd_r=e2fd3d59-8c83-4eb8-abff-5188ce644d93&pd_rd_i=B07H2VDPNF&psc=1&tag=amz07b-21

I generally replace the battery when I replace the winter tyres after 4 years as I travel often in snowy conditions (nearest ski resorts is 90 km away and I get there using the motorway with a fairly steep incline, country roads and small backroads). It's not worth the risk to me of the car not starting and having to call out the ÖAMTC (Austrian AA) or even worst a recovery service. It's not unusual for me to travel 500 km+ across the alps (e.g. Vienna to South Tyrol in the middle of winter). Just checking the battery before a trip is probably enough for the ski holiday maker from the UK when traveling to central Europe.

Normally take the car out for a run the night before I go on a days skiing / ski touring trip. This warms the engine and tops up the battery which reduces the chance of car not starting. My old diesel started much easier on really cold mornings when doing this.

This motorway is near to me (watch from 1:30) clip in german but the video should give you the idea.

http://youtube.com/v/Mt8QV9JGM7g
This caused a change to the winter tyre law in Austria as many people (3000 people including young children) were stranded overnight. The main culprit were lorries with summer tyres and no chains (happened mid Nov)
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Well after all that talk about how nobody needs to know how to change a tyre..... various family members on way to funeral today, in a tiny village in the New Forest, with quite steep, bendy, short hills around and a LOT of ice. I had reached the destination (a caff near the Church, with time in hand to

to get a coffee) when I had call from daughter, with puncture. She had had to manoevre round a Tesco delivery van stuck on an icy hill and probably hit the nasty torn edges of the road. So I had to hare off and pick them all up - some bendy steep miles away - and en route had my ABS system grunt into action for the first time EVER in this country. And had to really take it very, very slowly and gently up one shady hill - was v glad I have my new Michelin cross climate tyres. No time to sort puncture before the funeral, and car was safely off the road. Went back with one son in case wheel nuts too tight for us weak females. He'd never changed a wheel and no clue what to do, but now he knows - a new life skill. It was a 21 year old Toyota Yaris with stupid space saver spare, but at least it had a spare. And the wheel nuts weren't too tight, as it happened - sensible garage had the right torque. If we'd not been capable of changing the wheel or she'd had a useless car with no spare wheel, she could have been there in the cold and dark for hours waiting for the RAC - they said they were exceptionally busy and could only prioritise lone vulnerable disabled single parent females imminently giving birth. the funny thing is that my son, usually a scruffy guy, was in his funeral outfit of very cool grey coat and nice leather shoes instead of the usual ancient jeans and trainers.
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Good job you were there and winter tyred to help them @pam w, and as noted, good for someone else to learn.

I'm a serial wheel changer, can't resist a quick pitstop when someone is stuck or struggling.

I untighten the wheel bolts, jack it, put the spare under the car in case it falls off those flimsy jacks, take wheel off then put that under the car, pull out the spare and put it on.

If it falls, the wheel will support it so you can reset the jack. All fast enough to be on the telly on a Sunday Grand Prix Laughing
ski holidays
 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@ski3, great idea putting the wheels under for support in case jack fails!
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Putting the spare under the car is a very good idea - I'll remember that one. Son in law took the damaged wheel straight round to the local tyre people when we got back (he'd been working today and not in the car or he'd have changed the wheel himself in a jiffy) but I suspect if it hit a sharp edge of tarmac it'll be beyond repair.

When I reached them a kind but utterly clueless passer by had stopped to see what was the matter. I got there just in time to stop him trying to jack the car up without loosening any of the wheel nuts.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
ski3 wrote:
Chaletbeauroc wrote:
DrLawn wrote:

I did not know you had to get a software tweak when you had a new battery fitted if you have a VW type motor.

Neither did I, and I have two VW-type motors, both of which I've replaced batteries on at least once in our 14 and 10 years ownership thereof.

Without any issues, I should say, and certainly without involving any third parties in the process


If you just put a battery of parity in to replace, it won't really know or make any tangible difference to it Cool

Sorry but this is misleading to less aware people and should be corrected. I said earlier that a replacement battery will work if you just chuck it in but it doesn't mean it's working optimally and it's well known in the industry that not coding replacement batteries (if required) shortens their lifespan. That's why authorised dealers charge £50+ for the process!

From an Audi handbook:

Battery replacement
The new battery must have the same specifications and dimensions as the original equipment battery. Intelligent energy management in your vehicle is responsible for distributing the electrical energy throughout your vehicle. The intelligent energy management system will keep the engine battery charged better then vehicles without this system. To make sure the additional electrical energy is available once again after you have changed the battery, we recommend that you install batteries of the same type and manufacture only (the same as those installed at the time your vehicle was delivered). Specifications are listed on the battery housing. Your authorized Audi dealer must code the battery in the energy management system to enable you to use the energy management functions correctly after replacing the battery.

At the back of my mind, this is why I hadn't previously considered putting an AGM battery in a non AGM (stop-start) car and on reflection it's obviously not a good idea. AGM batteries are particularly sensitive to being overcharged and require a specific charging algorithm (and appropriate alternator) to operate effectively. If the OEM equipment and programming in your car was designed for a lead-acid battery, it should be left that way.
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Many cars now use calcium batteries (agm are so last century) , these charge to a slightly higher voltage and generally provide more cranking power. Replacing a calcium battery with a non calcium one means the new one gets overcharged and fails prematurely. On my car this is the primary reason for having to code the battery.
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 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
It's the same principle if you replace a 10 year old battery with a new one and don't tell the car. When the battery's new, the car knows it will hold it's charge and run at full capacity but over time those abilities diminish so the car ups the rate of charge to compensate. If you replace the battery and don't tell the car, it will continue with the old battery's charging pattern which effectively overcharges the new battery and starts killing cells in the new one prematurely.
ski holidays
 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Chaletbeauroc wrote:
greengriff wrote:
Fantastic thread! I see the old myth about boiling water cracking screens has made it here too. I can say categorically, with nearly 30 years of pouring boiling (or at least very hot) water over frozen screens, side windows, door mirrors and light lenses, not one has ever cracked.


Oddly enough I just came across this a couple of minutes ago.


Strange video, as whatever happens that causes the glass to break also causes the door handle to explode!
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Quote:

we would rather give tips (such as don't buy fuel from cheap petrol stations)

I thought that urban myth had been exploded decades ago
snow conditions
 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@johnE,
Supermarket fuels don't have the same lubricants and detergent etc. that branded fuel do. How much difference that makes you'd need an expert to decide. I'm an engineer and I'm happy to buy the cheapo stuff in the UK but I know it isn't a premium product. You pays your money ...
ski holidays
 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
My experience of supermarket fuels is that both of my diesel cars had a much more pronounced diesel 'knock' than Vpower when accelerating and the car and the temperaturewere cold (by UK standards). After about 1 mile it was no longer noticeable. I know that may be an unfair comparison as a premium vs regular product.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
johnE wrote:
Quote:

we would rather give tips (such as don't buy fuel from cheap petrol stations)

I thought that urban myth had been exploded decades ago


You might want to go back and read my posts.
I‘m talking about the additives they put in diesel in some Central European countries to stop it crystallising during low temperatures. The guy who worked for the ÖAMTC (Austria AA) who was called out to a friend’s brand new car that wouldn’t start during a ski holiday because of this, didn‘t seem to think it was a myth.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Here‘s what I said ….

DB wrote:
There are additives for diesel to help prevent it clogging
https://www.liqui-moly.com/en/service/everything-that-moves-you/cold-spell-protect-your-diesel-from-freezing.html

In Austria they put stuff in the diesel to stop it clogging but the cheap petrol stations put less in so fill up at a big name garage (BP, Jet etc) not at the super budget ones. (This advice came from the very nice man from the AA equivalent in Austria after a friends diesel car wouldn't start. Happened in 2015 when the car was brand new.). Fill up before the end of your journey so the treated diesel gets all the way through your fuel system.
ski holidays
 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
johnE wrote:
Quote:

we would rather give tips (such as don't buy fuel from cheap petrol stations)

I thought that urban myth had been exploded decades ago


Yes, the diesel fuelled cycle is a "cheapo" method anyway, and why it's so widespread/successful in tbe first place. Selling vegan, expertly milked by hand maidens, taste the difference Laughing fuel for the crude little cycle is laughable really.
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ski3 wrote:
Yes, the diesel fuelled cycle is a "cheapo" method anyway, and why it's so widespread/successful in tbe first place. Selling vegan, expertly milked by hand maidens, taste the difference fuel for the crude little cycle is laughable really.

I don't understand what you're saying. Can you perhaps re-phrase this?
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Yes, it's a relatively crude cycle that makes use of a certain technical level of fuel (reached by all retailers to consumer as i understand it) and highly unlikely to match the marketing expectations given out to consumers through advertising.

The gap between selling them enhanced product and what really happens inside a modern diesel engine doesn't even bring them close close in my view. That's really a confidence trick-esq field of description to take more money for something that can't really be quantified. But then most /95%* Toofy Grin advertising brings that outcome to so many fields.

I'm thinking more of the BP adverts narrated by ex doctor who actor? Of beautiful swirling cleanliness powering though fantastic combustion to leave everything as clean as can be. Cynical, certainly, but based on diesel combustion and theory in reality.

* common Internet arguing percentage without thorough supporting data Very Happy


Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Sat 21-01-23 12:13; edited 1 time in total
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 You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
Keep meaning to have posted this; my neighbour last week, on the road down from the Lautaret en route to Deux Alps, just above Villar d'Arène where they close the road if the Lautaret is closed due to bad weather.



She's 74 and not exactly a boy racer and she said it was black ice, can't recall if she said she braked or not, but she would not have been going fast, just goes to show.

Within ten mins they were up there covering the road in salt.

In fact, I've done a fair bit of driving this week, and my blue van is now nigh on white with all the salt from the roads, so going down to Briancon shortly to clean it, even though I'm driving again next week to La Clusaz for a few days, but with these uber cold temps and sunshine, that increases the risk of black ice
ski holidays
 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
ski3 wrote:
* common Internet arguing percentage without thorough supporting data Very Happy


Yes let‘s take a point Someone made, misinterpret what they said and argue for days about that. NehNeh

Seriously this thread could have been a great information thread to prepare people for their winter journey if it wasn‘t for all the bickering (I’m as guilty as anybody else here Blush ) and deep technical discussions.

Maybe we should do a summary of the salient points? Maybe in another thread?
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@Weathercam, Yes, but it doesn't tell us anything unless we know if it was a 2WD or 4WD Kadjar and what were the tyres???? Toofy Grin
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
And if she was wearing a helmet?
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
That's a great "cold weather driving" picture, @Weathercam. A good one to show people who think that "they clear the roads quickly" means they'll always be driving on nice black tarmac. Interesting angle on the tow rope. I'd have been inclined to pull her out the way she went in........Loads of salt on our local roads too - my car is covered in it from driving to Bournemouth yesterday!

I saw someone driving a Defender in our village today and was admiring his clearance. That's another factor, in ordinary cars. Once over a certain depth of snow it's difficult to get anywhere, chains or not. I did discover the limits of mine one day and ended up flat on the floor in the snow, shovelling the snow out from under the wheels with my arms, thankfully helped by one of my French neighbours. "Soyez prudente maintenant Madame". I had unwisely taken a run at the incline up to our garage. With chains, but without good judgement.
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 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Raceplate wrote:
@Weathercam, Yes, but it doesn't tell us anything unless we know if it was a 2WD or 4WD Kadjar and what were the tyres???? Toofy Grin


2WD and obviously snow tyres, though she's not up this weekend, so don't know make, brand & model for you all to get techy and debate pros and cons, plus I'll measure the tread for you as well Laughing
ski holidays
 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Weathercam wrote:
2WD and obviously snow tyres, though she's not up this weekend, so don't know make, brand & model for you all to get techy and debate pros and cons, plus I'll measure the tread for you as well Laughing

Good man, that's the level of detail we need! Laughing
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Weathercam wrote:
Raceplate wrote:
@Weathercam, Yes, but it doesn't tell us anything unless we know if it was a 2WD or 4WD Kadjar and what were the tyres???? Toofy Grin


2WD and obviously snow tyres, though she's not up this weekend, so don't know make, brand & model for you all to get techy and debate pros and cons, plus I'll measure the tread for you as well Laughing


They are called „winter tyres“ not „snow tyres“ - we need to argue about this for at least 3 pages (tyre compound, tread patterns etc) wink
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
what if she had all season tyres on, oh the shame Toofy Grin
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
DB wrote:
They are called „winter tyres“ not „snow tyres“ - we need to argue about this for at least 3 pages (tyre compound, tread patterns etc) wink

When you say 'winter' I'd argue that you're not providing supporting data to define the exact period in question. Do you mean the period around the winter solstice, and if so, how long each side? And when you say 'need' that makes me wonder what is meant because it implies a more equivocal stance than if you'd said 'must'. I think you know who I am echoing here.
ski holidays
 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@LaForet, you may need to present that in graphical/pictorial form for us all to digest ad infinitum.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Haggis will have a graph for it wink
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
LaForet wrote:
DB wrote:
They are called „winter tyres“ not „snow tyres“ - we need to argue about this for at least 3 pages (tyre compound, tread patterns etc) wink

When you say 'winter' I'd argue that you're not providing supporting data to define the exact period in question. Do you mean the period around the winter solstice, and if so, how long each side? And when you say 'need' that makes me wonder what is meant because it implies a more equivocal stance than if you'd said 'must'. I think you know who I am echoing here.


As always you should consult your car’s instruction manual and the cows in Sankt Anton; then get someone to give you a 3 page technical description of how all 4 wheel drive systems work. Then, and only then will you become the enlightened one.
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DB wrote:
LaForet wrote:
DB wrote:
They are called „winter tyres“ not „snow tyres“ - we need to argue about this for at least 3 pages (tyre compound, tread patterns etc) wink

When you say 'winter' I'd argue that you're not providing supporting data to define the exact period in question. Do you mean the period around the winter solstice, and if so, how long each side? And when you say 'need' that makes me wonder what is meant because it implies a more equivocal stance than if you'd said 'must'. I think you know who I am echoing here.


As always you should consult your car’s instruction manual and the cows in Sankt Anton; then get someone to give you a 3 page technical description of how all 4 wheel drive systems work. Then, and only then will you become the enlightened one.


Surely that needs a sub-division to allow for a further 3 pages detailing the differences between 4WD and AWD…
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Cacciatore wrote:
DB wrote:

As always you should consult your car’s instruction manual and the cows in Sankt Anton; then get someone to give you a 3 page technical description of how all 4 wheel drive systems work. Then, and only then will you become the enlightened one.


Surely that needs a sub-division to allow for a further 3 pages detailing the differences between 4WD and AWD…


We are just going to start with the short argument and save that for the full argument later, and stop calling me Shirley. Toofy Grin
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Just a quick thanks to @Weathercam for suggesting the brush/scraper on a stick, after reading this thread I happened to see one in Halfords. It snowed most of the time I was away so used it at least once almost every day.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
pam w wrote:
A good one to show people who think that "they clear the roads quickly" means they'll always be driving on nice black tarmac.


Yes, that's a good point. Last snowfall in the Portes du Soleil was on Wednesday 18 January, but the last hairpin to our apartment in St Jean d'Aulps was still snowy when we left on Saturday 28th, ten days after the last snowfall. Similarly, the road up to the "Piste B" car park above Morzine was still completely white on Thursday 26th. Both roads required either winter tyres or chains. The Ardent road (to one of the main Avoriaz day tripper car parks) took about five days before tarmac started being visible, and even the main valley roads still had compacted snow patches on them for several days.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
This is the cold weather diesel at total stations in France

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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
lynnecha wrote:
This is the cold weather diesel at total stations in France

Nice shot. That's the one I always fill up with when I reach Moutiers but I've never seen a sign saying it's good to -21c before. Impressive. And it's always cheaper than the Agip station on the other side of the road which is even better! snowHead
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Does anyone know how far out from the alps the cold weather diesel is at the fuel stations?
We filled up at Amberieu-en-Bugey on the way down last week. The car was parked outside (Tignes 2100) all week and started and ran quite happily on Sat a.m. at -16deg for the return run, as did my sisters, though they reported that their gearbox was a b****r until it warmed up. My mate had topped up in bourg as a precaution - but then he was in a LR discovery Laughing
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