 Poster: A snowHead
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After having an awful time skiing in flat light with a cheap pair of Bolle's I'm looking at upgrading. Does anyone have any suggestions for good goggles for poor weather? I'm not a particularly good skier, so when I cannot make out the difference between small bumps and divots, it really ruins my confidence. Will a good pair of goggles greatly help with that or not really?
I saw some Julbo Cyrius' on sale at my local ski shop for an eye-watering $210, but I'm not sure if those would be noticeably better for flat light than say a $70 pair dedicated to S1 light conditions. What would you suggest?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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There is no magic bullet for flat light - but decent goggles (or specifically goggle lenses) can help if there is some definition available.
I like Oakley Prizm Rose (versatile if sun comes out), Prizm Hi Pink (dedicated poor light lens); or Prizm Persimmon (slightly more versatile than Hi Pink).
Smith have their low light Chromapop lenses, which are equally liked.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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"Worth it" is very subjective.
I don't know about your Bolles, but they make reasonable goggles and with an orange or pink lens will do most of what is possible to help you see what little contrast there is in flat light. There are some excellent more expensive goggles with clever technology, but you are paying a lot more for the last 5%.
The bottom line is that when light is flat, visibility is not as good. The goggle lenses don't change that basic fact. The better skiers are better at judging the slope from the response of their skis, but that isn't easy either. Your confidence in those conditions may be a reasonable response to how hard it is!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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PS I only post the link’s because the last time I posted an opinion on this the OP said I was talking shite.
I work in optics 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@GlasgowCyclops, One would imagine that the technology would dictate the price?
For the OP the fact that you say "I'm not a particularly good skier" suggests expensive goggles won't be worth it.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Layne, “worth it” is a question of subjective value. Even expensive goggles are much cheaper than a ski holiday & if they enhance the OP’s enjoyment of said holiday they may well be worth it.
I think the real question is whether expensive goggles are really that different to cheap ones. Maybe try them on in the poor light inside the shop?
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I agree with @Old Fartbag, there's no magic bullet. You'll feel more comfortable in flat light as your skills progress.
That said, when the light is NOT flat, nice lenses with high optical clarity and no scratches do make a difference. I've used the same pair of Anon M2 goggles for years, they're great and I'm glad to have spent the money on them.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| diaphon wrote: |
| That said, when the light is NOT flat, nice lenses with high optical clarity and no scratches do make a difference.. |
+1
Same in golf.
But it could be psychological; a form of confirmation bias.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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As @Old Fartbag, says the Oakley Prism lenses are good as making the most of what definition is available. Not a popular answer but improving technique will make an even greater difference. Interesting that my kids have never cared at all what goggles they are wearing in flat light, one of them has always worn mirrored lenses regardless of conditions (or my advice!). But then they all grew up skiing, it’s as natural as walking for them.
The key is to learn to ski with feel - by which I mean from the feet up, being aware of and adjusting to the forces generated - and that only comes with good instruction and lots of ski miles. Even with that ability, flat light conditions are not fun. My wife is an ex-racer, has no problem skiing well in any conditions, but views a flat light day as an opportunity for a late start, lots of breaks for hot drinks, and a very long lunch. Not a bad strategy!
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| zikomo wrote: |
| … My wife is an ex-racer, has no problem skiing well in any conditions, but views a flat light day as an opportunity for us a late start, lots of breaks for hot drinks, and a very long lunch. Not a bad strategy! |
Not bad at all.
For elite skiers like her and I, it’s standard practice.
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You know it makes sense.
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| zikomo wrote: |
The key is to learn to ski with feel - by which I mean from the feet up, being aware of and adjusting to the forces generated - and that only comes with good instruction and lots of ski miles. |
Quite so. I'll sometimes use Sking-With-Your-Eyes-Closed as an exercise to help develop this, supervised and in an appropriate area, of course. It can really help body awareness if you take away all the visual input. If anyone has never tried it I recommend you give it a go on your own - you may be surprised.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I struggle in flat light or poor visibility too, but have no doubt it's because of lack of ability, to ski "from the feet up" as described by @zikomorather than lack of the right goggles. Hundreds of euros probably best spent on lessons, rather than hardware!
But equally, deciding on a nice lunch or popping into the nearest bar is a valid choice.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| AL9000 wrote: |
| zikomo wrote: |
| … My wife is an ex-racer, has no problem skiing well in any conditions, but views a flat light day as an opportunity for us a late start, lots of breaks for hot drinks, and a very long lunch. Not a bad strategy! |
Not bad at all.
For elite skiers like her and I, it’s standard practice. |
I will inform my younger and madder kids that this approach is standard for elite skiers, and not just because their Mother says so. Because as it stands it is muggins here that ends up on first lift regardless of how crappy the weather is. That said it is a problem of my own making having brought them up skiing in Scotland……
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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How long before they can head out on their own, @zikomo?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@südtirolistdeutsch, in pure value for the materials used plus all the other business elements to be paid for they aren't worth it I feel. It's a business with very very healthy margin for the most prominent brands, sunglasses too.
But in skier standing on the slopes, yes there's definitely some highly attractive attributes that are welcome. Nothing is magically going to give unobtainable enhancement to your vision, scope to maximise that which is available to help is certainly there though.
Ordinarily in "low" light, clear sky end of day shadows that are predominantly blue spectrum, a yellow lens helps the most to describe the surface to you in revealed ground texture. It's an area that probably gives less concern about though as surrounding scenery gives the skier more modelling to gradient, position etc to keep from losing confidence.
More diffuse light overall, misty, cloud, heading toward whiteout conditions appear to be helped more by a lens with more red, near red transmission. Rose, persimmon (more yellow with added red) as hybrid filter many comment on the range of lighting that these can be used within, both being probably a first choice of single lens type that a skier would appreciate.
The "chromapop, prizm" etc are their marketing profile names for essentially the same thing across different brands. All seem derived from lens coating that has high purity in splitting colour spectrum, less image disturbance, and maintain good image acuity to deliver those benefits to the user's eye. Make sure you avoid scratching them though else they're toast.
Pick any one of them at the best cost you can get them for through offers etc, definitely worthwhile to enhance a good day's skiing at best vision you can feasibly bring to difficult light conditions.
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I've got expensive goggles, but I got them half price. Shop around there is usually a deal to be had somewhere. I bloody love them too and ski in them more than my sunglasses as they feel good and I feel I ski better wearing them. Its probably in my head but so what.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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A lot of us should probably do more to improve our balance, and that applies especially to older people.....and especially when we are likely to be left to suffer if we trip and break a hip......
There are loads of simple balance exercises. Stand on one leg. And when that's easy, stand on one leg with eyes closed. Most of us wobble immediately. I know I should do more. That's not to say that good goggles aren't nice to have - but good balance is better, and cheaper, and more useful for the rest of the year.
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It's not necessarily the price of the goggles but the colour of the lens. In low light some people see better with yellow, some with pink. And some brands make the best " hi Def" (they all have a sub brand name) available across the range not just in the more expensive frames.
E.g. you can get in a Dragon lumalens or Giro vivid cheaper than an Oakley Prizm.
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Both myself and wife use Oakley Prizm Persimmon and they are great in flat light, and as posted earlier, are a bit more versatile than the Prizm Hi Pink that one of my sons uses
We've tried lots of lenses and goggles over the years and we are happiest with these
I also wear an Oakley helmet which gives a great fit with no gaps, rattle etc
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| Layne wrote: |
@GlasgowCyclops, One would imagine that the technology would dictate the price?
For the OP the fact that you say "I'm not a particularly good skier" suggests expensive goggles won't be worth it. |
I would say being easier to see as a not-so-good skier is a lot more relevant than for a good skier.
Generally tech dictated the price but the lens is not a very expensive part of the goggle. Taking a £150 goggle and seeing what they are in the sales is probably the shop markup (which is fine because we all have to make a living). So say it is sold to them for £100 then the wholesaler gets it for £80 and the manufacturer makes them for £20 then spends a lot on distribution, marketing and margin. From that £20 the cost of the lens is probably £6. So a jump in tech to a £10 lens is not going to make a big hike in the RRP.
I'm making all these numbers up. However, as an example. I have a supplier in the far east and I buy a product from them. An identical product is sold by a massive wholesaler is £340. I buy it for $95 and I've been told by a friend in Shanghai that they don't make it and It is probably $60 from someone else.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Worthwhile researching Adidas as they make some very good goggles, usually in the market at better cost than many.
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| pam w wrote: |
A lot of us should probably do more to improve our balance, and that applies especially to older people.....and especially when we are likely to be left to suffer if we trip and break a hip......
There are loads of simple balance exercises. Stand on one leg. And when that's easy, stand on one leg with eyes closed. Most of us wobble immediately. I know I should do more. That's not to say that good goggles aren't nice to have - but good balance is better, and cheaper, and more useful for the rest of the year. |
As I have got older, I include simple balance exercises in my routine - exactly as you describes above. The Gym I use has a BOSU ball -which is excellent for adding further instability. It's amazing how shutting your eyes hugely exaggerates the difficulty.
This article by Dr Michael Mosley is interesting: https://www.sciencefocus.com/the-human-body/dr-michael-mosley-standing-on-one-leg/
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| ski3 wrote: |
| Worthwhile researching Adidas as they make some very good goggles, usually in the market at better cost than many. |
Yes. I believe these are made with Zeiss lens tech. I noticed a pair of Adidas in the Zeiss Shanghai factory when I was there about 5 years ago.
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I’ll always remember one of our guides, when we suddenly got enveloped in fog on an offpiste run: “and now we see with our knees!”
For a laugh, here’s an attempt to ski without seeing anything at all (from last year’s Birthday Bash). I thought I’d look more stylish!
(I found it considerably harder to have my helmet backwards than to simply ski with my eyes closed - in the latter case I think I’m more relaxed knowing I can open them anytime, whereas in this video that wouldn’t have worked).
https://youtube.com/shorts/XfKpZCYjqAw?feature=share
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You know it makes sense.
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I always ski with two pairs of lenses. One for sun, one for flat light. They’re magnetic changers, so are really quick to switch over.
I can thoroughly recommend a similar set up.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| pam w wrote: |
| How long before they can head out on their own, @zikomo? |
They can head out on their own. And for sure they ski on their own when I am in the vicinity. But the youngest has no fear and eggs the others on, especially his competitive older sister, so they do need some boundaries. Plus part of their fun is teasing the old man trying to keep up.
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Poster: A snowHead
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That's impressive, @horizon.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@horizon, very cool. I use the eyes closed routine when teaching, and it always ends up with leaning back and using body rotation to try and limit time in the fall line. A great way to demonstrate how we revert to bad habits when unsure or fearful, and to fight against that tendency as it will have the opposite than desired effect.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| GlasgowCyclops wrote: |
| ski3 wrote: |
| Worthwhile researching Adidas as they make some very good goggles, usually in the market at better cost than many. |
Yes. I believe these are made with Zeiss lens tech. I noticed a pair of Adidas in the Zeiss Shanghai factory when I was there about 5 years ago. |
Interesting perspective as I've used for years Adidas rose with mirror external surface and feel they are very good.
My experience is in industrial optical performance on this topic. From mapping particular filter characteristics, splitting various wavelength to handle ir heat transmission etc, and tailoring light content in manipulating various ongoing accumulated response curves along the transmitted route. Recognising various overlap (nothing is perfect) areas and specifying particular spectral cut to minimise detrimental effect being a part of that area.
Anecdotally, out with friend that hadn't been with us skiing for a while and first day in GM ski area. It was tipping down with snow (all good) they were really struggling and asked me "can you actually see where we are going" which I thought was odd. We swapped goggles with mine those Adidas mentioned above, and realised it was such an extreme contrast (not completely fair comparison as hers were just routine traditional yellow basic ski goggle set) they were miles apart in those conditions. We left them swapped as she was certainly more comfortable to continue and me more familiar with area and slope layout. Illuminating nevertheless. Perhaps a pun intended there.
To quantify gains though, out in complete whiteout when you need to be within 2mtrs of a piste pole to see it, there's infinitesimal gain to be had, but you'd not want to make it worse by having goggles that don't perform.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| zikomo wrote: |
| I use the eyes closed routine when teaching, and it always ends up with leaning back and using body rotation to try and limit time in the fall line. A great way to demonstrate how we revert to bad habits when unsure or fearful, and to fight against that tendency as it will have the opposite than desired effect. |
Indeed, to be used with care, although I don't think I've found leaning back to be a particular issue, perhaps because I generally use it in conjunction with a very exaggerated slow but positive pole-plant, which can also help them to feel their way in poor vis, and which can then transfer to bumps and variables. Which I don't generally ski with my eyes closed 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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The only goggles you should use in poor conditions are beer goggles.
Get off the hill and out gf the bad weather.
If you've got crappy goggles, try and stay in sight of someone who's paid $$$ for decent ones until you're down.
Find a hostelry, get a pint of Ibex / 7 Peaks in you.
Everything in your field of vision will look better
There'll be sunshine tomorrow.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@südtirolistdeutsch, Sport Pursuit have a selection of both Oakley Prizm and Smith Chromapop gogles for about £80 - £90. The Smith goggles usualy have 2 lenses one for bright sun and one for low light.
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| ski3 wrote: |
Anecdotally, out with friend that hadn't been with us skiing for a while and first day in GM ski area. It was tipping down with snow (all good) they were really struggling and asked me "can you actually see where we are going" which I thought was odd. We swapped goggles with mine those Adidas mentioned above, and realised it was such an extreme contrast (not completely fair comparison as hers were just routine traditional yellow basic ski goggle set) they were miles apart in those conditions. We left them swapped as she was certainly more comfortable to continue and me more familiar with area and slope layout. Illuminating nevertheless. Perhaps a pun intended there.
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I was skiing with my Daughter in pretty flat light. She was in some Salice Orange lens goggles, that I got at a discount warehouse when she was a young teenager and used for a while. They looked reasonable quality, but she said she couldn't see any terrain changes - so I took them and gave her my A-Frame Prizm Rose. She wasn't wrong. As you said above, the difference was really stark. I couldn't make out any terrain changes, while she could now make out enough to feel more secure. After that, she got some Flight Deck XM with a Prizm Sapphire, which despite being darker than the Salice, are so much better.
Back in the 80s, I got me some Bolle Micro Edge (changeable lenses) - and felt very pleased with them, especially as they came with an Orange lens. It was only when they were replaced with some Oakley Half Jackets (had a Persimmon lens option), that I realised the difference a quality lens could make. With the Bolle, it was like looking through a windscreen that had a layer of mist on the inside. I think Bolle lenses have come a long way since then.....I particularly like their NXT versions.
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@OuatteDePhoque, fair comment however for some people they don't get to ski so often and/or make quite a financial commitment to do so.
Also the weather is unpredictable - so sometimes it just gets a bit worse than expected.
Trees help.
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FAQ
