Snow Chains/Socks if we have Winter Tyres

A snowHead

Driving down to Tignes for our first driving winter holiday in April. Managed to pick up a set of decent second hand snow tyres and rims which I am happy with but now wondering do I still need Snow Chains/Socks even if we have winter tyres?

A snowHead

Still think they are compulsory even with winter tyres

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

@Sylas, yup, you still have to have them. Almost certainly won't use them . . . BUT wink

I've needed mine just to get out of a car park after a couple days of snowing. Get real, these types of rules are made simply because we're stupid and others have had to clean up our crap.

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Damn, thought that might be the case, the investment in snow tyres now seems a waste! But I feel more comfortable at least looking for just 1 pair of socks, compared to 2 pairs of chains as I was going to do.

Is a pair of socks going to be ok, or do they specifically have to be chains?

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

No, absolutely not a waste - because having the right tyres means you are much less likely to need chains, especially in April. In any case, you would only need one pair - not two. Socks are questionable - sometimes OK, sometimes not, there is a lot of discussion about socks on this forum. You could wait and see what the weather is looking like and buy some chains at the last minute if necessary.

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@Sylas, Or get a really cheap set of chains in a French supermarket.

Why would you need two sets of chains ?

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

I've drove up on incipient light snow with regular tyres and with snow tyres. It's a good investment, you'll feel it. And as @Masque, said, you'll probably won't need to put the chains on

After all it is free

what are you driving?

A Kia Sportage, gutless and 2wd!

We are driving down on the Friday and plan to stay the night around Chambery so picking up chains in a supermarket is an option for us, if that's something I can rely on the supermarket stocking.

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Snow socks are inferior to good winter tyres, so they're not relevant in your case. Chains is always a tricky one. My expereience is that in 20 years of driving to the Alps (15 years with winters) I've needed chains three times, if I recall correctly. In each case to get out of somewhere with a steep incline - often a prosaically short distance but without them I'd have been stuck.

A couple of things to bear in mind. First, some chains need adjusting so always try fitting them at leisure at home first. Chains which fit a wide range of wheel/tyre combinations are often sized for the smallest wheels, requiring some adjustment of the link for larger sizes. Which can take time. My latest set are like this and it took 20-25 minutes each chain in a warm, well-lit garage to make the adjustments. Not what you want to be doing up a mountain in the dark and snow.

Second, as we all know, they can be tricky to fit, so ditto. My latest chains I had a 'doh!' moment when I realised I could practice on the spare wheel - much easier to do it flat and not attached to the car. If they need any link adjustments then this is definitely easier.

Third, cheap isn't always best in the long run. I have three sets of very cheap chains in the garage from my previous lease cars. THis time, I've got more expensive ones that fit a much wider range of sizes and stand a much better chance of being usable on my next car. Of course, if you are planning to keep the car for some time, then interchangeability might not be a factor.

Personally, I think that if you're going to buy them in France, why not buy them in the UK? Then you can adjust/practice at home first. Worst case scenario would be it's clear en route so you don't bother, then it snows the night before you leave and you're stuck.

Suffix: Oh, and always check in your Owner's Manual that your particular model, year and wheel/tyre setup is suitable to take chains. I was astonished with our Jeep Grand Cherokee that the UK spec' couldn't - the assumption was they'd never be needed so Chrysler supplied UK models with wider tyres.

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The Super U in Bourg had chains on the shelves last year. Also had Michelin easy chains, or whatever they are called.
Also, the garage behind the B&Q type place (which is next to Intermarche) says on its outside advertising that it sells them - think it's a tyre place too.

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@Sylas, My 2wd Mondeo is good in snow. I have chains for it but never used them. What tyre size are you using ?

I don't think they're a waste, the winter tires. Chances are you'll complete journey and not need anything else.

But, the regs in France are sensible. In as much as when they signpost the route with blue sign to indicate snow chains could be required, there's very good reason. Enough gradient to give you serious concern if covered in snow for most vehicles. You'd really be sweating if you need them, especially coming down!

Supermarket supplied chains in France are fine, and they do seem to keep stock of decent range.

Chambrey, Albertville, Moutier, Bourg will all give you a chance to buy.

You know it makes sense.

Lots of useful information, thank you all.

We plan on keeping the car for a good amount of time, the last car my wife had lasted 12 years an we only got this one last year so hopefully transferability shouldn't be a factor.

The thinking behind getting chains in France vs getting them here is cost, would they be cheaper as a more common item or not? For our wheels 215/70/R16 we are looking at £100 for even a cheap pair.

edit: Found these, £30, worth a punt?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sumex-HUSAD90-Husky-Advance-Chains/dp/B009XRNFUI/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1550072319&sr=8-3&keywords=snow%2Bchains&th=1&tag=amz07b-21

If we do pick them up before hand then I will be practicing.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

@Sylas, You only need one pair of chains for the 2wd Kia. My (part-time) 4wd was fine on snow in January with winter tyres, only switched the 4wd on to go up a steepish incline. Snowchains.co.uk offer a part exchange service on some of their chain brands so if you don't use them you can part ex them for new ones when you change cars. Snowchains.com offer a hire service.

A snowHead

A snowHead

@Sylas, which tyres? ... how deep is the remaining tread? And then a couple of other things...

The reason I ask: I’ve used winter tyres for 20 years, and they have improved beyond all recognition over that time. But performance does tend to drop off when they get to 5mm. I use a tread depth gauge and that’s when we give ours away and get new ones. They are still useable and far better than summers but not quite up to par in the very slippy slidey steep bits which we have to go up (and down).

But note in all those 20 years we have carried snow chains, driven through deep deep snow and never used chains. Never. But we do carry them in the boot....

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

There doesn't appear much wrong with the linked chains posted by @Sylas, and as you say, you'll be able to practice before which is certainly wise.

However, I'd prefer the ones on the same link a few lines down as I think the type of links joining the Y shapes and to the side cables are more reliable in those Konig branded one's. That's if you get is what is in the picture. Not a great deal more cost, overall total of about £10 a year if you keep the car for six years. Whether used or not.

If it were my money I'd buy those Very Happy

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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

They look almost new, the person I brought them off said they had only done 1-2k miles at most only fitted to the car for 2 months, brought directly from Kia in 2017, and quite importantly they come with tyre pressure monitoring sensors that the car needed.

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@Sylas As mentioned, the 4mm winter tyre recommended minimum level is a bit more than the 3mm recommended minimum for summer tyres, but it's not a conspiracy - below 4mm they do start to lose grip and braking ability disproportionately. And I 'd have to admit that the price on the Huskys looks attractive, given the odds are probably 8:1 or more against ever needing them, but I'd echo that it's generally worth paying a bit more for a more robust construction.

If you practice, when you repack them, try to separate the two chainsets with a plastic sheet or something, so you don't have chain spaghetti when you get them out again. Also put in a carpet square to kneel on and a pair of old but not too thick gloves or even washing-up-gloves. Also bear in mind if you end up having to use them to have a spare pair of boots and torch handy, not under a tonne of luggage. A head torch is going to be useful for other things like topping-up washer bottles etc.

Spend time on all these preparations and you're almost guaranteed to never need to use the chains in earnest..........

And while you're at it, if you're parking outside, then a cheap snow brush may be well worth the £5 or so - there are loads on Amazon.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Just measured and 8mm left on the winter tyres so pretty much brand new.

I shall check out the ones people are suggesting and get some ordered.

After all it is free

Take some bungee cords to use to take up the tension on cheap chains, and don't drive too quickly if you do need to use chains.

and always stop after a few hundred yards to tighten them up as much as possible (even if they are supposed to be "self tensioning").

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@Sylas, I am fairly certain you will be fine. We saw lots of Swiss 2WD cars going over the Pas du Morgins (1400m) last Saturday with road covered in snow from the 65cm dump on the previous day . My suggestion is to grab some from Amazon before going and return if not used. Someone mentioned elsewhere that chain stocks can run low in petrol stations by April. Or buy some socks.

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Its as much about stopping as it is about getting going. Once you’re off the gas and on the brakes the only thing that makes a difference is what’s between you and the road. If snow tyres help you avoid even one collision then they’re worth while.

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Hi all,

Just bumping an older thread rather than starting a new one.

Bearing in mind the law changes in France I have a quick question that I hope people can help with.

Driving to Les Menuires at the end of the month. Its a Range Rover with M+S tyres fitted. I know that in the vast majority of cases, that should get us to our car parking spot for the week. Am I right in saying that with the recent law change, that'll technically do us?

Following that, we were looking at getting a set of chains as well but are now considering socks instead due to the vast price difference between the two. Would M+S tyres, with socks satisfy the gendarmerie if the situation arose?

Thanks all

Yea should be fine.

You know it makes sense.

These are the rules. Winter Tyres include ones with the 3PMSF symbol and M+S. tyres marked with only M+S (without 3PMSSF) will be tolerated until 2024.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

The M+S Designation on its own is pretty meaningless, other than that you have a 'chunky' tread. If this is all you have on the tyre, then the tyre's compound chemistry will still mean it's slippery in colder temperatures, and the tread design isn't particularly useful in the snow. The 3-peaks-and-snowflake designation, however, does mean that the tyre will warm up more in the cold and will be much less slippery (even on tarmac) and the tread will be designed to give excellent snow traction without clogging-up. Basically, an M+S alone means it's still a summer tyre.

Socks turn your effectively summer tyres into winter-ish tyres and are useful if you're only going to encounter consistent snow very briefly, say in the last few Kms up the mountain or a ahort drive out of where you're parked up for the week. What they're not so good at is if you have a lot of alternating cycles of tarmac>slush/snow>tarmac, where they'll eventually shred. Or if you suddenly hit slush/snow and there's nowhere to fit them. Also, they're not going to be useful if you are unfortunate enough to be at the bottom of a steep uphill road which is icy e.g. after freeze/thaw has turned your parking exit into an glacier. In the latter case only chains are going to be effective.

So socks and chains partially overlap at the extreme end of the spectrum of worsening conditions. Socks are an option in moderate snow conditions. The challenge for both socks and chains is at the other end of the spectrum, in situations where you're transitioning from tarmac to slush and snow, especially if it's cyclic.

What you have to ask yourself is not 'what's legally acceptable?' but 'what's the best setup?' for driving in the Alps in winter. The ideal is, of course, is to have SUV all-season tyres or full winter tyres, plus chains. In which case you've got almost the whole spectrum of conditions covered up to the point where things are so bad that almost nothing short of a piste basher is going to make progress anyway. Everything else is a compromise and often a difficult one because if all you do is go to the Alps for a week once a year - if that - the ideal is a big expense. Personally, for an SUV owner, I'd recommend swapping to all-seasons as soon as I could anyway, as they're much better even in mild wet UK winters.

The exception is if you have a performance SUV like a BMW X5M where the difference between all-seasons and summers/winters gets amplified past the point of acceptability (unless you drive it like a Toyota Aygo, in which case why have an 'M'?). In this case, as with a saloon or coupé performance car, you would seriously consider separate summer and winter wheels+tyres.

A snowHead

@Ozboy, I hadn't seen that tolerance for M&S.

I suspect, on the basis that M&S are no better than summers, it's a "political" allowance to appease the many artisans who quite reasonably are firing around in trucks on M&S and don't want the immediate massive expense of getting "real" snow tyres. (There being no other reason obvious to me ..)

A snowHead

New Range Rover is upwards of £100k should you trash your current one - are those chains so expensive?

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

The main difference between M&S and winter tyres is their ability to stop on ice as winter tyres generally have more sips and a softer compound. https://www.prioritytire.com/blog/tire-siping/

In icy conditions leave a lot of space between you and the car in front, especially when descending or on the motorway. Lighter cars with winter tyres will have much shorter stopping distances (and go round corners better). Probably best you use the gears to slow the car down when descending a mountain pass - maybe offroad experts here could advise.

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and sometimes, even good winter tyres with loads of tread will NOT get you up a steep hill covered in slippery stuff, and might lose traction, more dangerously, going DOWN steep bends. Those are the times you also need chains, probably just for a few hours. It doesn't happen often, but it happens. The cost of a set of chains is not a big deal as part of the cost of a ski holiday.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

You do not need chains if you have winter tyres in France under the new legislation :- Quote

To improve road traffic in mountainous areas and the safety of users, it is mandatory to equip your vehicle with winter tyres or to hold snow chains or socks of the 1to November 2022 to March 31, 2023 in certain mountainous areas. Entry into force 1to November 2021, this winter obligation is fixed by a decree issued in Official Journal October 18, 2020. Which vehicles, equipment and departments are involved?

https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/actualites/A14389?lang=en

If you have proper winter tyres, you won't need chains, despite the crap above from some posters, hence you don't have to have them by law, if you have the proper winter tyres. In fact, chains are far more likely to cause you problems unless you are completely incompetent .

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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

@LaForet, in a situation with good winter tyres where one might need to put chains on (both for going up or down) you are likely would not be able to put them on (too steep, slippery or too dangerous).

Good winter tyres and 4x4 would never require chains.

Good winters and rwd or fwd - skills/experience way more important than a set of chains. Had to stop once midway on a steep hill in Alpbach on a hard pack/ice covered snow (if not forced to stop would not have been an issue). Once stopped midway up, it was slippery but there was noneay I would have been able to put chains in those conditions (steepness, slippery conditions).

People who say they need chains in deep snow are either on pseudo/cheap winter tyres or tyres that are old/worn.

Situations where you might need chains on good winter tyres are so rare that roads are likely would be closed for traffic. Good tyres people, good tyres.

I agree that occasionally if you are on a very steep hill, and you have to stop because of other drivers, you could have difficulty restarting as mooney says, but agree this is not the place to try to put chains on!
With a 4x4 and winter tyres this is not likely to happen if you have reasonable driving ability. But mainly, it's down to the tyres. Also, chains on a 4x4 would limit its effectiveness in a lot of conditions if it had winter tyres on. Landrover's for example, had a habit of throwing chains off under extreme torque, and that was Landrovers own chains. Don't get me started on the debate of wither chains should go the front or rear of Landrovers, off road on snowy tracks, do you prefer understeer or chasing the back end?

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