 Poster: A snowHead
|
| bobalexander1983 wrote: |
I climbed Ben Macdui and Cairngorm at the end of last summer (when the funicular was briefly running again). Judging from the volume of people at the top of Cairngorm when I walked over from Macdui there is no way they are actually preventing funicular passengers from leaving the top station to get onto the plateau. Would say numbers at the top of Cairngorm were in 3 figures (including a kid on top of the cairn throwing rocks off) and many who were in footwear I think it would've been almost impossible to walk up from the car park in.
Dozens more had walked down to look into the corries towards Macdui as well. |
The riff raff seem to be incredibly resilient, I've seen them at the top of Ben Nevis in their flip flops. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
Apparently the solution is more angle iron and more threaded rod. Oh and more tax payers cash!
Enough was enough a long time ago. No matter if they send £20m more building a new viaduct superstructure out of steel to the original specifications, none of the fundamental operational shortcomings will have been addressed.
At absolute best non stop bottom to top it can’t exceed 600 persons per hour. For a variety of reasons it struggles to sustain more than 400 per hour for any length of time. And if there was a big snow storm with winds from the S to SE, it will be moving 0 per hour for days after! 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
Channel 82 (talking pictures) tonight at 20.50 ;;
"Look at Life - Snow Business : 1961. A look at the flourishing winter sports business within Scotland......"
Should be an interesting watch - mabye??!!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
Snowsports enthusiasts to protest about ‘mis-management’ of Cairngorm Mountain
A demonstration has been organised to protest against Highlands and Islands Enterprise’s management of Cairngorm Mountain with a rallying call to ‘bring signs, noise makers, food and friends’.
The organiser, ski school worker Mike Marcus, has admitted it is a step into the unknown but said he was frustrated that no-one was doing anything about things despite, he said, the deep local concern. He has been busy in recent days delivering flyers in and around hundreds of homes in the Aviemore area to promote the demo to take place at the resort’s Coire Cas car park on Wednesday (April 24) at 6.30pm.
Mr Marcus told the Strathy: “It seems to me that everyone is unhappy with what is happening at Cairngorm Mountain but not actually doing anything about it. I do understand why because of the local politics. It seems to me that the mess with the funicular at Cairngorm Mountain is basically stopping people from getting to the Ptarmigan. The funicular is a money pit and the more public money that goes into this abyss the more they do not want to remove it and do something else to improve uplift".
“Clearly it has been another awful winter for Cairngorm Mountain but all along there have been fantastic conditions at the Ptarmigan. It is the highest area that people can ski or snowboard on in the whole of the UK and that is why Cairngorm is so special as the resort has these snow-secure slopes. “But there is no-way to get up there for most people unless they walk for half-an-hour and even then the M1 Poma lift is only really suitable for experienced skiers and boarders - and that is when it is in operation.”
On the funicular, Mr Marcus said: “It seems absolutely absurd to me that HIE is throwing good money after bad. HIE has lost all trust locally.But there seems like there is some traction forming at the moment and it is the right time to get the public involved - the media are interested, MSPs are interested. It only takes a few determined people to get the ball rolling. Universally speaking, everyone in Aviemore hates what is going on with the funicular and blame HIE for the fiasco".
“Aviemore and Glenmore Community Trust is led by residents who have good experience of running successful local businesses and have brought ice skating back to Aviemore as well as being in the process of completing an community asset transfer for the Glenmore Visitor Centre.
“It is clear that HIE needs to go and the community take over the mountain.”
HIE declined to comment to the Strathy.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
A demonstration by local and nearby people is obviously great.
What about a petition, too, circulated UK wide, to catch all who used to go, still go and/or really want to go again? Not sure how to word it, not to whom it would best be delivered, but sure that it'd attract a huge amount of support.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
Petition has been done by Save the Ciste - raising awareness doesn’t help, HIE is accountable to nobody for its malfeasance.
The A&GCT has been very cleverly parked out of the way with HIE funded side projects to allow HIE to carry on destroying the ski area while covering its own ar$e over the funicular project.
I’d be inclined to say it’s time to close Cairn Gorm completely, but that’s probably been the HIE goal for a long time. It offers environmentalists a headline concession for driving forward a new town in the National park, that would make connected people a hell of a lot of money over their and the their children’s lives!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@haggishunter, out of interest what is the new town you mention?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@Alastair Pink, see: https://parkswatchscotland.co.uk/2017/09/14/camas-mor-rewilding-new-town-cairngorms/
Off particular note is that to allow the development to go ahead would likely require the the revocation of access rights for outdoor recreation in the Glenmore corridor as mitigation for the environmental impact.
It does however look as if the scale may have been dialled back somewhat - 50 homes a year for 30 years would be 1,500. Pretty sure 2x that was talked about years ago.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| Alastair Pink wrote: |
Snowsports enthusiasts to protest about ‘mis-management’ of Cairngorm Mountain
A demonstration has been organised to protest against Highlands and Islands Enterprise’s management of Cairngorm Mountain with a rallying call to ‘bring signs, noise makers, food and friends’.
The organiser, ski school worker Mike Marcus, has admitted it is a step into the unknown but said he was frustrated that no-one was doing anything about things despite, he said, the deep local concern. He has been busy in recent days delivering flyers in and around hundreds of homes in the Aviemore area to promote the demo to take place at the resort’s Coire Cas car park on Wednesday (April 24) at 6.30pm. |
Only 14 turned up.
From The Strathspey Herald:
A demonstration over the management of the Cairngorm Mountain resort only attracted a small turn-out but protestors there still hailed it as a useful get-together.
Organiser, ski school worker Mike Marcus, had admitted it was a step into the unknown and was unsure how many people would attend last night at the Coire Cas car park.
But he said he was frustrated that no-one was doing anything about things despite the deep local concern over what was happening at the attraction.
In the end, just 14 folk answered his rallying call to ‘bring signs, noise makers, food and friends’ to show their frustration with Highlands and Islands Enterprises’ management of the resort.
One of those was award-winning outdoors campaigner Dave Morris who told the ‘Strathy’: “There was a small turnout for this protest but it was really useful as those present had expert knowledge on the whole history of the development of downhill skiing on the mountain, its importance for producing medal winning champions as well as detailed knowledge of the engineering and operational failures of the funicular.
More: https://www.strathspey-herald.co.uk/news/low-turn-out-for-demonstration-against-public-agency-s-manag-348937/
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Disappointing, they should have held the rally/meeting in a pub in town.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
The operating assumption by CML is that the funicular will not operate during the 2024/25 season.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| haggishunter wrote: |
| The operating assumption by CML is that the funicular will not operate during the 2024/25 season. |
What a surprise (not).
Are CML still calling it 'snagging'?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| haggishunter wrote: |
| The operating assumption by CML is that the funicular will not operate during the 2024/25 season. |
That's the soft corporate way of 'managing everyone's expectations' and announcing it'll never operate again.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
Interesting thoughts there @Peter S, it really is very difficult to see where this area goes next.
Access on to the top for beginner/early intermediate is an imperative.
Funding for a new quad or 6er would be very difficult (impossible) to find after the "train-crash"
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
For me, Scottish skiing needs to invest in a reliable snow making facility on a large scale to ensure longevity in snow sports. The seasons are too hit and miss these days, so I don’t see how it can progress without large sums of money being spent in that area.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
Snow making was ineffective at low altitude in the western alps this year. I can't see it working on a large scale at even lower altitude in Scotland?
At Cairngorm there is still reasonably reliable natural snow holding in the Ptarmigan bowl. We may have to accept that the only reliable way to get there is going to be on foot.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
Scotland skiing is rudderless and leaderless and in steep decline.
Every year on this forum it gets worse.
The industry needs vision.
But Scotland lacks the management skills for grands projets. It can't even build a ferry.
Scotland needs to plant 20 million trees, install 1000 snowguns, and add 50 windproof lifts.
Stop the wind, melt, and closures.
But it ain't never gonna happen.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
@Whitegold, or it continue being beautiful Scotland and not the theme park you envisage.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
@GlasgowCyclops, planting trees, or at least letting trees grow, would greatly enhance the Highlands. The reason that the hills are so bare is not that it's so hostile that only grass will grow but because deer are permitted to eat everything. Look at the beauty of what was scrubland fenced off for the A9 which is now thriving biodiverse woodland and contrast that with the barren deserts outside of the fenced off areas and tell me that the Highlands couldn't be a lot more beautiful than it is now. The same story applies to many bits of England and Wales as well, especially in our so called National Parks but with sheep the primary culprit there. All that said, I don't think that increased tree cover would make a meaningful difference to the snow conditions at the Scottish ski centres
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@rambotion, that is only part of the story. It’s not just about grazing pressure being less in the vicinity of busy roads, but the modern A9 corridor also caused her substantial ground disturbance.
In more upland areas it broke up blanket bog, providing a drier strip for colonisers like birch to get established.
On the subject of snow making, where the tree line is naturally higher such as in the Northern Cairngorms, snowmaking is more likely to be viable at lower levels than on the highest tops.
A protecting biosphere can reduce ablation at a given temperature by 40-60%, deep cold is more likely in upland glens than the high tops due to inversions and the factors which increase ablation, wind strength, rainfall intensity and most crucially risk of being in the cloud during said high winds and heavy rain all increase with elevation.
I’ve heard that HIE has told local conservation groups that Coire na Ciste is now classified as an undeveloped part of the Cairngorms Estate and that the HIE masterplan excludes any development beyond existing developed areas.
HIE should be held in absolute contempt, but when things could have been different Aviemore didn’t want to know. The last 20 years since the core lifts policy has proven a funicular centric ski area dependent on road access to Coire Cas is unviable.
Public sector investment that leads to substantial redevelopment of the mountain including Coire na Ciste would be acceptable if other areas are give a credible slice of the public sector cake, but ongoing subsidy of a non visible business to the detriment of commercial operators is unacceptable.
CairnGorm Mountain as it stands no longer has the scale, capacity or terrain to be viable. Unless major investment includes Coire na Ciste, removal of the funicular and lowering the sight seeing destination to below the clouds, there is frankly no point and Cairn Gorm should close permanently.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| haggishunter wrote: |
Public sector investment that leads to substantial redevelopment of the mountain including Coire na Ciste would be acceptable if other areas are give a credible slice of the public sector cake, but ongoing subsidy of a non visible (presumably typo for viable?) business to the detriment of commercial operators is unacceptable.
CairnGorm Mountain as it stands no longer has the scale, capacity or terrain to be viable. Unless major investment includes Coire na Ciste, removal of the funicular and lowering the sight seeing destination to below the clouds, there is frankly no point and Cairn Gorm should close permanently. |
Agreed.
And if lift served skiing on Cairngorm should cease its epitaph should read "Killed by HIE". 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
Ironic to have spent so much money on the area only to ruin the skiing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| haggishunter wrote: |
@rambotion, that is only part of the story. It’s not just about grazing pressure being less in the vicinity of busy roads, but the modern A9 corridor also caused her substantial ground disturbance.
In more upland areas it broke up blanket bog, providing a drier strip for colonisers like birch to get established.
On the subject of snow making, where the tree line is naturally higher such as in the Northern Cairngorms, snowmaking is more likely to be viable at lower levels than on the highest tops.
A protecting biosphere can reduce ablation at a given temperature by 40-60%, deep cold is more likely in upland glens than the high tops due to inversions and the factors which increase ablation, wind strength, rainfall intensity and most crucially risk of being in the cloud during said high winds and heavy rain all increase with elevation.
I’ve heard that HIE has told local conservation groups that Coire na Ciste is now classified as an undeveloped part of the Cairngorms Estate and that the HIE masterplan excludes any development beyond existing developed areas.
HIE should be held in absolute contempt, but when things could have been different Aviemore didn’t want to know. The last 20 years since the core lifts policy has proven a funicular centric ski area dependent on road access to Coire Cas is unviable.
Public sector investment that leads to substantial redevelopment of the mountain including Coire na Ciste would be acceptable if other areas are give a credible slice of the public sector cake, but ongoing subsidy of a non visible business to the detriment of commercial operators is unacceptable.
CairnGorm Mountain as it stands no longer has the scale, capacity or terrain to be viable. Unless major investment includes Coire na Ciste, removal of the funicular and lowering the sight seeing destination to below the clouds, there is frankly no point and Cairn Gorm should close permanently. |
Couldn’t agree more. It’s an absolute shambles.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
If the powers that be eventually decide to remove the failed funicular and install some alternative uplift then this new Doppelmayr TRI-line lift system might be suitable, as it has high uplift capacity and high wind stability but is cheaper than a 3S ropeway. Would still require a lot of extra money to be found though....
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
Yes good spot. This is the double loop mono cable ‘chairlift’ design that we have long discussed as a possible solution in exposed locations such as the UK.
https://www.doppelmayr.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/DM_TRI-Line_Broschuere230406_ENG.pdf
110kph is equivalent to 68mph wind compatibility which might be enough, even for Cairngorm! Could enable the hill road to be closed to public traffic with access directly from Glenmore. Would still be expensive though and wouldn’t solve the problem of letting you out at the top
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Peter S wrote: |
Yes good spot. This is the double loop mono cable ‘chairlift’ design that we have long discussed as a possible solution in exposed locations such as the UK.
https://www.doppelmayr.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/DM_TRI-Line_Broschuere230406_ENG.pdf.
110kph is equivalent to 68mph wind compatibility which might be enough, even for Cairngorm! Could enable the hill road to be closed to public traffic with access directly from Glenmore. Would still be expensive though and wouldn’t solve the problem of letting you out at the top |
You are absolutely right
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
| Peter S wrote: |
| Would still be expensive though and wouldn’t solve the problem of letting you out at the top |
The ‘problem of letting you out at the top’ applies solely to the Funicular. in the unlikely event the Funicular operates again, it is not going to do so for the longer term, so it’s time to think differently.
Ultimately the Ptarmigan Restaurant is too high up the mountain for reliable sight seeing - it is in cloud 1 day in 3 even in summer. This is why Natural Retreats proposed building a boardwalk above the tunnel from the Top Station to the tunnel mouth!!
The Glencoe Access Chairlift is older than the funicular and has an uplift limit of 50mph. A modern monocable lift carefully designed to fit the terrain should be be good for 60mph, so the economics of capital and operating cost vs revenue lost to wind is unlikely to favour something complicated. The case for funitels, 3S lifts or the new tri-line gondola from Doppelmayr depends on either huge capacity or fairly exceptional evacuation requirements where there is basically no alternative.
Reducing exposure could further negate the need for much more expensive options, an approximately 2km monocable gondola into what is currently the Ciste Carpark from Glenmore is going to operate more days than a single stage 3km tri-line gondola or funitel into Coire Cas.
Using any overhead gondola format to directly replace the funicular doesn’t address the cloud issue at the Ptarmigan nor the road issue for getting into Coire Cas. Either big investment with a fundamental change of approach is required or CairnGorm should close for good before it takes the rest of the Scottish snowsports industry down with it.
We are pushing past £77 million of public expenditure by or on behalf of CML in 25 years with only a broken funicular and decaying much reduced ski area to show for it. People have done jail time for public sector corruption in relation to Aviemore in the past, there are certainly some individuals who deserve to meet a similar fate today.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
The Cairngorm funicular has been an absolute disaster from day one.
It was always the wrong lift in the wrong place.
For the following reason:
i) The VMP meant summer visitors were always going to be unable to leave top station in summer.
I don't specifically object to this : Cairngorm plateau is fragile sub arctic tundra.
However it means the train can never be used for outdoor recreation / repeat summer custom (hiking, biking etc)
ii) funiculars not ideal for skiers who like a quick turn around
iii) middle station not at the middle (requiring two stops for each up / down carriage)
iv) snow frequently buried the tunnel entrance
v) the track acts like a giant snow fence. White Lady (signature run on the hill) has never been the same since it was built.
Sadly HIE have spent the last 20+ years doubling down on the initial error.
Every decision they make is designed to try and ensure the train is a success.
Even if that comes at the cost of all else, including the ski area.
I think we are now at a point where there needs to be acknowledgement the purple train has been a failure.
Scottish Government should pull funding and scrap the project.
Though that in itself not so easy given that opposition parties voted to keep HIE board independent of Holyrood in 2017.
So while Holyrood allocate funds they have little control over where it was spent.
What should replace the train?
My plan would be as follows....
a) Extend and electrify the existing stream train line (from Boat of Garten -> Aviemore) onto Glenmore and Coire Cas.
b) New train could be used year round by skiers, bikers, hikers and tourists. Lots of stuff en-route at Colyumbridge, Loch Morlich <etc>
c) Make Glenmore a car free zone. Existing road becomes train track and bike lanes.
This would quickly create viable year round business that would attract summer custom.
Car free national park could very quickly become unique world class tourist attraction.
Cairngorms are outstanding mountain area of natural beauty that could attract visitors from all over world (if managed properly)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
@mountainaddict, that is an insane level of subsidy. Does anyone know how many skier days Cairngorm has averaged over the last 25 years? A post on snowheads suggests 200k in a good year and another source reckons 32k in a bad year. If it averaged out at 100k skier day per year that would be a subsidy of £30/skier day. Seems hard to justify. If the justification is that it keeps aviemore's economy then that would an approx 24k spend per resident. I can think of plenty of other UK towns that would bite your arm off for that level of investment
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| rambotion wrote: |
| @mountainaddict, that is an insane level of subsidy. Does anyone know how many skier days Cairngorm has averaged over the last 25 years? A post on snowheads suggests 200k in a good year and another source reckons 32k in a bad year. If it averaged out at 100k skier day per year that would be a subsidy of £30/skier day. Seems hard to justify. If the justification is that it keeps aviemore's economy then that would an approx 24k spend per resident. I can think of plenty of other UK towns that would bite your arm off for that level of investment |
Yip : I have done similar math's before....
Your estimated subsidy of £30/skier is about right (thought that does ignore summer visitors).
Rather than repair the funicular Cairngorm could have basically offered "free" skiing for 25 years!!
The funicular has become a black hole to the obvious detriment of other parts of the Highlands & other Scottish ski areas.
In a sane world Holyrood would simply pull the plug.
However a 2017 vote in parliament decided to let them retain an independent board - which seems to be unaccountable.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-38677356
The real tragedy is that Cairngorm top basin has the best snow holding in Scotland.
On a sunny day its the best place for teaching kids - yet no one can get there without skins / walking these days.
Worryingly the dead hand of HIE now influencing Nevis Range too (which has basically become a gondola for MTB only).
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
Back to that old chesnut of its nothing to do with Scot gov aka SNP eh?
| ster wrote: |
@Haggis_Trap, back to that BS pro SNP point scoring?
The HIE is wholly responsible for executing Scot Govt policy
https://www.hie.co.uk/about-us/our-board/
“The HIE Board normally meet at least six times a year and has overall responsibility for ensuring that we fulfil our statutory duties and meet the aims and objectives set out by the Scottish Government” |
And dont go on about SNP went with the vote, it was non-binding. If the SNP had the courage of its convictions it could have changed it.
And in fact the Scot Gov STILL directs the HIE as the above clearly shows.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
Politics aside, the future. Twelve months ago the topic was repair or demolish.
If my memory serves correctly the figures were in favour of the repair.
Let's assume that the train is now finished. Funding the demolition/removal has not gone down in price, quite the contrary. How funds can be found for this operation is almost impossible to see.
Huge questions on the viability of last year's work should be asked and answers demanded.
I will suggest that not one individual will ever stand up and state "I/we got it wrong".
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| Rogerdodger wrote: |
If my memory serves correctly the highly dubious HIE massaged figures were in favour of the repair. |
FIFY. 
| Rogerdodger wrote: |
Huge questions on the viability of last year's work should be asked and answers demanded. |
100% agree, but I doubt that will ever happen.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
If the funicular can’t be fixed and there is no new money to provide lift access up to the Ptarmigan bowl, then perhaps a ‘Plan C’ could be to create a new ski club to run the Corrie na ciste and Ptarmigan ski tows ? These offer reasonably reliable skiing and the tows are simple enough to be be run and maintained by volunteers.
The walk up from the car park is a good hour but that becomes a lot easier if you can leave your skis and boots up at the tows. If skiers could also stay overnight in the Ptarmigan building then suddenly you have created something unique for UK winter sports.
This would be a niche facility but i would have thought there is likely to be demand given the popularity of ski touring and winter walking in Scotland. It would be a solution to maintain at least part of the existing ski facilities in the absence of any new money. Perhaps most interestingly it would also be a route to retuning control to the enthusiasts to manage their own facilities.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
It actually makes me feel physically sick the amount of money wasted on the funicular!
I'm assuming it will need to be removed, at great expense, if it's never going to be operational again?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
This was precisely the issue I was referring to @Hoss0610,
When the last round of works was up for discussion the figures being tossed about were.
13 million repair. 16 million to demolish and remove.
Clearly a repair was a far better investment......
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Rogerdodger wrote: |
This was precisely the issue I was referring to @Hoss0610,
When the last round of works was up for discussion the figures being tossed about were.
13 million repair. 16 million to demolish and remove.
Clearly a repair was a far better investment...... |
Except repair wasn’t a sure thing to work , then the running costs every year if running at a loss. And having to demolish and remove eventually anyway?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
As Jim Bowen might've said: "Here's what you could have had!" (For £77m of expenditure). The fabled Glenmore Gondola could easily have been a reality, together with working uplift in the Ciste.
