Hello,
for the last 5 seasons I have worked as a ski instructor. Year after year, as I am becoming more skillful, I slowly started getting more experienced clients. But what I really want to master this season is finally understanding some more advanced techniques things. It took me a while to figure out how the forces during skiing work, how you must use inclination and angulation, and of course even when. But there are still so many things that are really so difficult to understand. I still try to figure out two main things, when we talk about skiing and mostly carving.
1. Where does the body point? I mean people used to say in previous days that the body follows the valley direction. Well, during short radius turn yes. But during medium? On the other hand, it is almost impossible in my opinion to keep the pressure and balance on the outside ski while your body (let s say chest to be specific) follows the tips of the skies. So you probably should keep the body more "open" to the turn, but how much? And what part exactly? Shoulders? Chest? Weist?
2. And this point is huge riddle still for me. I understand after some time that you need angulation to keep your pressure and balance on the outside ski and also to keep the physics forces in the right direction so your skies actually hold on edges and you do not slide down on your but. But I also understood the term "hip dump". This basically means you get into a really stuck position which is also quite unstable. A was trying hundreds of kinds of making angulation but I always end up in that "hip dump". And what I also discovered is more you try to keep the body down the valley (from point 1) more hip dump you usually do. Basically, when you watch the skier with this stuck hip dump position he looks more like the letter L. Meanwhile, really good technical skiers look more like the letter C (we can call it banana shape even). The best example is these two pictures. I was watching them really close but I got to the point where I can definitely see there is a huge difference, but if you ask me to tell me what exact differences you see, I could answer nothing than "I am really not sure..."
I watched every youtube video about ski technique. (SIA, Tom Gellie, Reiley, Snowsports, even the guy from the USA who has great tutorials but unfortunately I can not remember his name, and tons of other material. I was searching through this forum and even others but found no answer. So I got finally to the point where I would like to ask myself here.
I would like to post here two pictures of skiers I found. One with L shape and the other with C shape turn posture. One is lector from SIA. But first I need to figure out how to put here the file
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Sun 6-11-22 12:18; edited 2 times in total
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Tom and Paul were talking a bit about this in their "hip hike" video on youtube which is there from SIA. But still, I would like to hear some more depth theory explanations.
So, what I see here is.
1, the first skier already crossed the fall line. Meanwhile, the second one is crossing it. But still..
2, the first skier s body following the tips. But really? According to the jacket zip, the chest is pointing slightly out of the turn. But the shoulders are following the tips. Is it just an optical illusion because he is preparing his left arm for using the pole after he finishes the turn? So he basically rotates the axes of the shoulder a bit to the same direction as the axes of ski tips? The second skier is really open to her upper body to the turn.
3. Shoulder line of the first skier is tilted inwards to the turn. The shoulders of the second one are at the horizontal level I would say.
4, Even if the first skier has crossed the fall line he does not need so much angulation. Why? I can think only of one reason and that is because he rides faster but maybe there are other reasons
5, The upper body of the second skier is really bent forward. Is this why she can not make the C shape body position rather than the "L" shape? What do you think?
6, Even the first skier has nice angulation, his shins are pretty much at the same line with the slope. How is it possible? Just physical ability?
7, What do you think caused the "hip dump" for the second skier? I mean both of them have a really really great technique of skiing. But we can clearly see from the modern point of view that one of them looks better according to nowadays carving standards and also I would say is more stable.
Why do I want so much to get to know this topic?
1, the hip dump is a very often position for people who learn carving. Once it is there it is very difficult to unteach it for me as a ski instructor.
2, it usually makes skiers just park and ride because it is quite a blocked position. You can not do much in this position
3, I definitely could find much more clear example of the "L" shape picture where the skier for example is also very much open to the valley with his/her upper body but I did not want to make comparison between PRO skier and "just" advanced skier.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Sun 6-11-22 12:16; edited 6 times in total
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Welcome to snowheads - quick way to post pictures:
1 ) Go here: https://imgur.com/upload
2) Upload the image that you want
3) Once uploaded click on the 3 dots "..." in the top right hand corner
4) Click on "Get Share Links"
5) Click on "Copy Link" for the 3rd option "BBCode (Forums)"
6) Paste the coder here: it will start with [img] contain a URL, and then end with [/img]
@Martin7125, Edit your previous post and copy the following code between the [img] [/img]
I might be looking at the wrong thing but is there a difference in these pictures primarily because the way men and women achieve these angles is determined by their different skeletal structure? Or are you referring to something other than this difference?
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
I was referring to the problem of angulation and upper body separation which is definitely a must to have in your skiing but also can get you to an unnatural position also known as a hip dump. This means that the skier put his/her hip too much inside and down into the turn and usually also rotates the upper body too much out of the turn.
The first skier seems to be in a much more stable and natural position. And I would like to know what are the causes of this "better" and more stable position. Because the position itself is not the cause but the result. Maybe these two pics were not the best example, because the first is a man and the second skier is a woman. There are definitely some differences in the skeleton structure and strong ability but I was talking about the technique more than the physical stuff.
I picked the other two skiers where I tried to highlight the things I wanted. First of all, I am not saying that the left one is a bad skier. Not at all. I just wanted to make a clear definition of what I mean by the term L shape and C shape body position. To me, it seems that Reilly is in a much more natural, stable, and nicer position. Of course, the angle of the video is different and they are in a slightly different part of the turn. But still. I can see many people on the slope getting caught in this "locked" position and then they just park and ride because it is not much you can do in such a locked position. But I am asking. What is causing this locked position? How does the skier get into this hip dump position? How to prevent it?
I can of course also see the counter rotation there. But I do not think this is the cause. I would say this is the result. As a result of some movements, I try to figure out for quite a long time how to do them better. Because I myself also sometimes feel stuck during my carve turn and I can see on the video I have "straight" legs and then a great angle in my hips and then a straight torso again (Like the L letter).
On the other hand, even great carve skiers use upper body separation so your body must be at least a bit open to the turn. But how can you feel what is still OK and what is too much during your ride? Also the same with angulation.
It is really difficult for me to describe my feeling about this topic because one thing is to see and feel something is not 100% right and the second thing is to describe it so others can understand and help.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Sun 6-11-22 12:16; edited 1 time in total
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@Martin7125, going to be of no help as I really don't understand your question beyond commenting that skier B in blue looks much more competent than skier A in green and black ...
After all it is free
After all it is free
The phrase “hip bump” confused the hell out of me. “Hip dump” on the other hand is the term I know and sounds to me to be what you’re talking about.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Yes, I messed up the terminology with this one letter (English is not my native language). It should be a hip dump of course. I am going to fix all my posts above to "hip dump".
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
olderscot wrote:
The phrase “hip bump” confused the hell out of me. “Hip dump” on the other hand is the term I know and sounds to me to be what you’re talking about.
"Hip Dump" and "Park and Ride" are terms I'm also familiar with....I have never heard the term Hip Bump.
Edit. Now clarified.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Old Fartbag wrote:
olderscot wrote:
The phrase “hip bump” confused the hell out of me. “Hip dump” on the other hand is the term I know and sounds to me to be what you’re talking about.
"Hip Dump" and "Park and Ride" are terms I'm also familiar with....I have never heard the term Hip Bump.
Edit. Now clarified.
Ok, it is fixed. Yes, you are 100% right about it. I used bad words to descríbing one of the problems I was talking about. It really is a "hip dump". I do not know why I learn this thing to describe as hip "bump" . I even watched many videos and read view blogs about this topic and still learn it with the bad terminology
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@Old Fartbag, I am not, as you know, a great fan of online tuition, but that's a very nice article.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
I am not an instructor, just an interested amateur - that learned Old School, on Straight Skis - that enjoys trying to get my head around the modern thinking that is put forward by the likes of Tom Gellie, Joshua Duncan Smith and Paul Lorenz. This means looking at understanding the when and how to use - Toppling/Inclination/Angulation/Edge/Pressure etc
Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much on Sun 6-11-22 12:42; edited 1 time in total
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
What I would say, is another issue associated with other "bad" habits I was talking about in my beginning post is knee separation. I can feel it also in my own technique, but I can see it among very much skiers when I observe them from the ski lift for example. They try to get into the next turn but push their inside ski forward which creates a gap between their knees. I understand it was maybe some very old kind of making age angle because some older skiers and instructors told me even to do so actively during my skiing. They told me I have to actively push my next inside ski forward to begin the turn. Which I did not like at all but I have tried it a few times and it felt terrible. A was feeling like my whole pelvis is turning out (counter rotation?) of the turn. So what is your tip to keep the knees closer together? And I do not count vertical separation as "not keeping them together" I know that vertical separation of knees is a must-have during carving turns.
How to prevent the inside knee and also ski not to go too much forward? Because from my point of view, this is one of the causes that are related to doing hip dump in the following part of the turn. can you prevent it by pushing the outside ski more forward, or pulling the inside ski back during the turn, or is there maybe a completely different way? Maybe this knee gap is not the cause but the result of something else which has nothing to do with the knee movement... I would really like to learn more about this topic.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Old Fartbag wrote:
I am not an instructor, just an interested amateur - that learned Old School, on Straight Skis - that enjoys trying to get my head around the modern thinking that is put forward by the likes of Tom Gellie, Joshua Duncan Smith and Paul Lorenz. This means looking at understanding the when and how to use - Toppling/Inclination/Angulation/Edge/Pressure etc
Thanks for great material to read. I have already read it and it is really good. I think I know most of these 10 tips but it is always good to hear the same things described with different words. Just one quote I did not understand well from the blog was this. (From fore-aft movement)
"It’s absolutely OK to be in the backseat at transition and initiation, but it is mandatory to move our center of mass forward in order to be centered when we load/pressure the skis (at the fall-line)."
In my opinion, you must use also the middle and back parts of the skies once you crossed the fall line and slowly progress to the finish of one turn but I think you need to load the pressure to the front part of the skies much earlier than at the fall-line. I think you already have to turn your skies from the beginning of the turn to the fall-line with frontal pressure on them. So you have to initiate the turn already on the front part of the skies. But maybe I am wrong, or maybe I just did not understand this quote correctly....
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@Martin7125, I think you are talking "Tip Lead" of the U/Hill ski - which is very Old School.
I feel slightly uncomfortable giving advice to a Ski Instructor - but one possible way might be:
When all the weight has been transferred to the U/Hill ski prior to turn, pull back the now unweighted D/Hill, so when it becomes the U/Hill ski, it is not pushed forward. There will always be some "natural" Tip Lead, as the body should have some "Counter" to the outside of the turn.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Martin7125 wrote:
In my opinion, you must use also the middle and back parts of the skies once you crossed the fall line and slowly progress to the finish of one turn but I think you need to load the pressure to the front part of the skies much earlier than at the fall-line. I think you already have to turn your skies from the beginning of the turn to the fall-line with frontal pressure on them. So you have to initiate the turn already on the front part of the skies. But maybe I am wrong, or maybe I just did not understand this quote correctly....
From my linked thread - JDS discusses exactly this:
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I find the hip dumping debate quite strange. Surely the key to solid skiing is focusing on the feet and ankles and everything else in the chain is what happens as a result, driven by speed, turn radius and intent.
AIUI hip dumping is when skiers try to "copy" racer types by mimicking their position without necessarily the same forces.
I find ski methodolgies that talk about pulling skis back or that are overly focused on what the upper body is doing aren't that helpful. That said a lot can go wrong with the upper body if you don't have good separation or are trying to do weird things with poles etc. ( Says he who spend his last week skiing while patting the dog)
@Martin7125, I think you are talking "Tip Lead" of the U/Hill ski - which is very Old School.
I feel slightly uncomfortable giving advice to a Ski Instructor - but one possible way might be:
When all the weight has been transferred to the U/Hill ski prior to turn, pull back the now unweighted D/Hill, so when it becomes the U/Hill ski, it is not pushed forward. There will always be some "natural" Tip Lead, as the body should have some "Counter" to the outside of the turn.
Yes, this sounds similar as I was thinking about it. Bytheway I think there is nothing wrong with giving advice to the ski instructor. To be clear about it. I am still far from the Lv4. I am training and preparing to complete my second part of Landesskilehrer (Lv3). So teaching skiing is not even my full-time job. But I really want to become not only a better skier but also to understand the mechanics behind it. Because in my opinion, each exercise, drill, or just "free" downhill ride you do with the client must have a purpose and you must know why you practicing those exact things with him/her. I am quite sick of many of my colleagues I see sometimes around me them doing some drills with the client and you know they have no clue why they do it. They just repeat something somebody showed them at the instructor course. I do not blame anybody, because they are usually just students who have it as a part-time job for a few seasons and then they leave so their ambition ends at Lv2 max, but I like skiing and I would like to stick around it for more than just a few years during my studies.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Martin7125 wrote:
Just one quote I did not understand well from the blog was this. (From fore-aft movement)
"It’s absolutely OK to be in the backseat at transition and initiation, but it is mandatory to move our center of mass forward in order to be centered when we load/pressure the skis (at the fall-line)."
This Video explains it well under "Level 3 Expert Carving" from around 11:00
have you tried posting on PMTS.org or pugski? there's a lot of instructors in those forums who will happily go in to great depths
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Mother hucker wrote:
have you tried posting on PMTS.org or pugski? there's a lot of instructors in those forums who will happily go in to great depths
No, I haven t. Thank you for this link. It looks really well. I think one can learn a great knowledge of skiing after browsing forums like these. And PMTS looks like another golden well of material.
After all it is free
After all it is free
But be aware PMTS is a lot of a personality cult whose worshippers insist there is only one true way to think about skiing. Quite funny if you ever get stuck on a chairlift with an evangelist.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
But be aware PMTS is a lot of a personality cult whose worshippers insist there is only one true way to think about skiing. Quite funny if you ever get stuck on a chairlift with an evangelist.
We have a similar group of people in my country. If I understand it correctly, PMTS is about avoiding snowplow rather than starting learning from a parallel position. So we have a group of instructors with a very similar view and they also teach on really short skis. Like 1,2m for example for adult beginners. I do not know, well I have never tried it this way so I do not want to say it is bad, but the traditional Austrian system is closer to me, to be honest.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
But be aware PMTS is a lot of a personality cult whose worshippers insist there is only one true way to think about skiing. Quite funny if you ever get stuck on a chairlift with an evangelist.
as above but there's lots of knowledgeable folks on there.
Alot of the folks posting on the 2 sites I mentioned, live in or close to the mountains. Have gone through junior development programmes instructor exams etc.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Martin7125 wrote:
I am quite sick of many of my colleagues I see sometimes around me them doing some drills with the client and you know they have no clue why they do it. They just repeat something somebody showed them at the instructor course.
The equivalent here is to just post links to youtube videos.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Here is my probably over simplistic view. The C and L shapes are symptoms of how the skier is balancing laterally during the turn.
A simplified view of this is that there are two ways to balance in a carved turn (i.e. not fall over):
1 Balance above the skis
2 Balance inside the turn and use the force from the turn to keep you up. This will of course only work if the skis are turning fast enough to create the required force to balance the leaning motion.
In reality all skiers use a blend of 1 and 2. I'd interpret the "C" shape as a symptom of balance profile 1 and the "L" shape as a symptom of balance profile 2.
A simple practical test of this is to carve slow turns on a slope that is not very steep at all while attempting to create large edge angles, if the above is right then this would naturally create "C" shape posture. "L" shape would result in falling because of the lack of balancing force from the turn.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Going back to the original question a piste will allow you to drop the hip and get away with it. However, off piste, and racing, if your weight is not more centred (the lady) you will not get into the next turn in time without losing form. Practice turning trying to touch your inside boot throughout. Amazingly stable, creates the c-shape naturally and gets you in a good position to initiate the next turn. By contrast, drag your uphill pole (or hand as per the photo) and see what it takes to ge to the next turn - a lot of effort that you can get away on piste but will get shown up elsewhere. Better still, find some poles and try them both - the difference will be noticeable.
The moral? It's Einstein's theory applied to skiing. As you drop your hip you must counter it by compressing your waist downhill. Doing one with out the other just throws you out.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@22 dropout,
Quote:
Practice turning trying to touch your inside boot throughout.
I don't think your "inside" boot is what you think it is (or maybe it's the "throughout" that's off) - doing this will have you edging out quicker than a gnat can chuff.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
22 dropout wrote:
... The moral? It's Einstein's theory applied to skiing. ...
Special or General relativity? I suspect you could mean Newton's third law, but it's hard to say and probably best not to.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
. I even watched many videos and read view blogs about this topic and still learn it with the bad terminology 
