 Poster: A snowHead
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Do any of you know a resort particularly well? If so would you do me a small favour? It will take about 5-10 minutes and will make an overworked man very happy. No, it's not that!!!!
Could you download my app, Skicard, from the Apple or Google stores, take a look at the resort you're knowledgable about and post here telling me if I've made any errors? E.g. 'X shop closed 2 years ago' or 'You've missed out Y restaurant, which is the best in the resort' etc.
The more I get into this project, the more I'm thinking I've bitten off more than I can chew in terms of the sheer volume of data I need to both compile and check! Compiling it is a grind, but I can live with that. Checking, on the other hand, is near impossible for one person to do, hence me wanting to crowdsource.
Thank you!!!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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If I download it, it asks me to supply my name and email.
What do you need that for?
What is app about?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Good question, @Layne. I was going to have a look at it, but will await the answer.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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The name and email is so that if you send a message to a shop they can reply to you. The email address also serves as a unique ID to store your settings against. E.g. if you set Val D'Isere as a favourite resort the way that information is retained requires a unique ID so that it can reapply the setting the next time you load the app.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| greengriff wrote: |
The more I get into this project, the more I'm thinking I've bitten off more than I can chew in terms of the sheer volume of data I need to both compile and check! |
You've bitten off more than you can chew, as @ecureuil told you.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Oh well. In for a penny, in for a pound. I'll have to adopt the attitude of Mr Bull from Peppa Pig: It will take as long as it takes! I wonder if resort tourist offices would be willing to help?
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@greengriff, are you going to hand out some equity/crowdsourcing benefits? 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@greengriff, I'm not a fan of the email requirement either. If you weren't a snow head with an established posting history, there is no way I would have provided it (and i still used an address specifically for spam). So your app would never be used by me.
You should remove that (and name) upfront, and only ask for it if people want to access 'offers'. I.e. make initial entry to/usage of your app as simple as possible, and only collect name/email/résidence if and when it is actually needed.
As you allow people to select their country of residence as UK (and various others) you must comply with GDPR - and part of that is only collecting data if and when it is needed. If you can't manage that basic compliance, then yes, you really have bitten off more than you can chew.
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Hi Fixx. The email is needed: The app cannot function without some way to tie your settings to you. The information in the app is dynamic (i.e. subject to change) and therefore is accessed as needed. Everytime you open the app you have access to the latest data. I could run the app with static info but it would always be out of date unless the user decided to go to the app store and update it. What I'm doing is not unusual or suspicious. Some apps will use your phone number, some will ask you to create some kind of unique ID. This seemed to be the most transparent method.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@greengriff, I've signed up and taken a look at your entries for St Martin de Belleville. The thing is, many of your bars and restaurants and ski schools listed are up the road in either Les Menuires and VT. (Tripadvisor does the same thing-v annoying). Apart from one bar, you don't have any of the restaurants or bars that are actually in the village listed...
Oh dear...I don't have the energy to take my observations much further. Your best source of up to date info would surely be the individual resort websites. I will be deleting your app. Sorry!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Thanks. I'll take a look at the official site. The problem with them as a source of info is that only that major resorts have comprehensive lists of shops etc.
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Great idea. I will use it this winter and give feedback.
A thought to help manage the data load… Could you build it resort by resort, and be more proactive by going to a resort and going into each shop and asking for 20% off if they use snow card. Make it exclusive, so only pick the best rental shops, so I know that if I use snow card I’ll always get a good shop and at a discount.
Plus, gives you an excuse to go resort to resort!
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You know it makes sense.
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| greengriff wrote: |
| Thanks. I'll take a look at the official site. The problem with them as a source of info is that only that major resorts have comprehensive lists of shops etc. |
Then start with those. They will the ones that more people will want and create the most usage for your app anyway.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| greengriff wrote: |
| Thanks. I'll take a look at the official site. The problem with them as a source of info is that only that major resorts have comprehensive lists of shops etc. |
Pardon my stupidity here but how are you sourcing your information?
Or to put it another way, why don't I just go to the resort website, trip advisor, google?
The card aspect seems superfluous - what does it bring?
When I go to Les Coches, the first ski school entry says "Ski School Initial Snow" but the website link is for ESF.
One of the restaurants listed is L'effet Boeuf - which is in Arc 1800.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Have you thought about applying to Dragon's Den for funding? They love apps.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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You probably don’t want all this unsolicited advice 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| ster wrote: |
| @greengriff, are you going to hand out some equity/crowdsourcing benefits? |
I can lend you one of my kids to clean your car or something?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| MaxiD wrote: |
Great idea. I will use it this winter and give feedback.
A thought to help manage the data load… Could you build it resort by resort, and be more proactive by going to a resort and going into each shop and asking for 20% off if they use snow card. Make it exclusive, so only pick the best rental shops, so I know that if I use snow card I’ll always get a good shop and at a discount.
Plus, gives you an excuse to go resort to resort! |
That would be my dream way to do it. Unfortunately I have a job and kids and a budget that constrains me to 2 (and on good years) 3 fairly low rent ski holidays. Now, if I could find a rich sugar daddy to fund such a project I'd happily edge off all my responsibilities and give it a go. However since I'm not a 21 year old attractive euro babe with fantastic hair I have to accept that the chances of that are slim.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| ster wrote: |
| greengriff wrote: |
| Thanks. I'll take a look at the official site. The problem with them as a source of info is that only that major resorts have comprehensive lists of shops etc. |
Then start with those. They will the ones that more people will want and create the most usage for your app anyway. |
That is a sound idea indeed!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
@greengriff, are you going to hand out some equity/crowdsourcing benefits? wink
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I wonder what commision is being paid for our contributions to this app. I assume that there will be some. Otherwise why should be bother looking at the resort websites and transcribing the information to the app.
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| davidof wrote: |
| Have you thought about applying to Dragon's Den for funding? They love apps. |
They would probably like me to point out how it's going to make them some money. That it something I'd be unable to do as yet! This is really a hobby/passion project for me inspired by the following:
1. I love skiing and wanted to immerse myself in something - anything - to do with the sport.
2. A couple of friends with small businesses got hammered into extinction by c*v*d restrictions. This is for people like them to give them the same chance to connect with skiers as mega-chain businesses with big marketing budgets.
3. I wanted to learn about app development.
4. I'm bored shitless of my day job and wanted something to do that I could be interested in.
Somewhere at the back of my mind I had vague ideas about how it might pay for itself with ads if it picked up a gazillion users. Not exactly the business plan of the century though! At the moment it costs me a few quid a month in cloud computing costs to actually run the app.
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| MaxiD wrote: |
| You probably don’t want all this unsolicited advice |
Well like anything, there will be sparks of genius in there. I don't mind criticism if it helps me to learn. Like the whole name/email collecting thing. It just seemed sensible to me. It didn't occur to me that people would be wary of giving it through lack of trust. Even though if you look at any app that has some kind of acount functionality then it will create some kind ID and login for you, either overtly or covertly.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| johnE wrote: |
| Quote: |
@greengriff, are you going to hand out some equity/crowdsourcing benefits? wink
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I wonder what commision is being paid for our contributions to this app. I assume that there will be some. Otherwise why should be bother looking at the resort websites and transcribing the information to the app. |
Whatever happened to helping someone out just for the hell of it? If it makes some money I will reward people in relation to the hours they've put in!
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In Dragon's Den parlance, you've created a solution to a problem which doesn't exist.
This forum does everything you're aiming to do.
If I need to find info about a destination my first three sources are:
1. Google name of destination
2. YouTube - search for destination
3. Snowheads - search and start a new thread
With those three searches I get general information; video of the destination; general & specific recommendations from people I trust who have visited the destination
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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No, it's not the same thing at all. The card gets you a discount from particpating retailers. It also allows you to instantly shop for a deal by letting multiple hire shops/ski schools/restaurants etc. know when you'll be attending the resort, how many of you are going and so on. This also allows the resort shops also to get business 'in the bag' and paid for before you even set foot in resort. That way they can manage their time and resources better.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I've worked on a few apps and to get this going across all resorts in all countries would need a multi-million pound budget.
If it was me I partner with a tourist board offering everything for free so reducing the reasons for them to say no. Effectively you are creating a resorts discount card for them for free.
Once you have proven its success with one, you move to the next. If you build the platform correctly then the next resort would be just configuration.
Edited: You could also approach a tour operator and partner with them too so guaranteed punters that are visiting the resort in question.
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I think you have the core of a good idea but it's off-target. There's no way that you will be able to sustain the data entry and updates for a large number of resorts. But perhaps you should look at it in reverse, so to speak? Could you develop the app as a platform for resorts to use as an alternative to hand-crafting their own resort app? Something they get as a foundation platform which they then modify with their resort-specific data to create an apparently tailored app. Avoiding having to pay lots of money to app developers. For even large resorts or domains, it's a big financial burden to constantly be funding developers to create/update an app. And invariably, they don't have the funds to do the sort of constant app updates that revenue-rich businesses can - lots of v1.0 apps brought out in the initial flurry of app dev have fossilised. Just a thought.
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You know it makes sense.
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Spot on . This has been tried before. Way to much to keep up to date.
| russ_e wrote: |
I've worked on a few apps and to get this going across all resorts in all countries would need a multi-million pound budget.
If it was me I partner with a tourist board offering everything for free so reducing the reasons for them to say no. Effectively you are creating a resorts discount card for them for free.
Once you have proven its success with one, you move to the next. If you build the platform correctly then the next resort would be just configuration.
Edited: You could also approach a tour operator and partner with them too so guaranteed punters that are visiting the resort in question. |
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| russ_e wrote: |
I've worked on a few apps and to get this going across all resorts in all countries would need a multi-million pound budget.
If it was me I partner with a tourist board offering everything for free so reducing the reasons for them to say no. Effectively you are creating a resorts discount card for them for free.
Once you have proven its success with one, you move to the next. If you build the platform correctly then the next resort would be just configuration.
Edited: You could also approach a tour operator and partner with them too so guaranteed punters that are visiting the resort in question. |
That's a very interesting idea, thank you.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| LaForet wrote: |
| I think you have the core of a good idea but it's off-target. There's no way that you will be able to sustain the data entry and updates for a large number of resorts. But perhaps you should look at it in reverse, so to speak? Could you develop the app as a platform for resorts to use as an alternative to hand-crafting their own resort app? Something they get as a foundation platform which they then modify with their resort-specific data to create an apparently tailored app. Avoiding having to pay lots of money to app developers. For even large resorts or domains, it's a big financial burden to constantly be funding developers to create/update an app. And invariably, they don't have the funds to do the sort of constant app updates that revenue-rich businesses can - lots of v1.0 apps brought out in the initial flurry of app dev have fossilised. Just a thought. |
You mean as kind of as a 'white label' project, where it's effectively the same thing with a different skin on?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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My two cents - target or start with a smaller region at first not the whole of the alps.
You need the userbase - and a big one - as they will be transitory - think about the changeover of people - and for that you need the resort to buy in to promote it on your behalf - or you need a sugga dada, and those oligarchs are harder to find.
You need the platform to allow the retailers to push the offers/promotions through to users (the app holders).
Scenario 1 - which I think you have been considering is the rental shop or the bar has a generic code or offer that is there all year.
Scenario 2 - where I think the real money is Bob's Bar is having a slow start to the night - it pushes through an offer that goes - buy 1 get 1 free beer - this then attracts customers. In a similar manner - one of the restaurants is having a slow night - pushes an offer through - free sides with any main - see what I am getting at.
How to monetize this - that is something else - and a lot easier when you are providing a platform for scenario 2.
Anyway - just some thoughts.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Yes.
I'm thinking of the Verbier app as an example - v1 was quite useful with easy links to weather forecasts and webcams, plus a 'find my friends' function and showing the basic list of lifts and pistes and their open/shut status. It was also quite good at pushing out important announcements like a lift likely to shut down due to high winds or maintenance etc. But it never progressed to be a 'mobile first' version of the verbier.ch website with links to retailers and accommodation. They did a V.2 (presumably at some cost) but it actually dropped some functionality in favour of by then out-of-date ski activity scoring. It's now something of a zombie app due, I'm guessing, to both the cost of developing it further and the increased competition from other apps.
So what might appeal is some sort of generic, configurable platform which can be tailored. If you're a small ski resort, then it's attractive because you don't have the funds to invest in a lot of app dev, and if you're a large resort, it's attractive because you feel you're not getting value for money from your existing developers.
It's like website development: probably 95% of websites are built using website builders with only 5% or less hand-crafted by developers (albeit even they use development platforms). In your case, you'd be trying to create a niche app builder that was targeted at ski resorts and their clients. Of course, this is easy to describe at a high level - the trick will be in (a) how you make it configurable (b) getting the balance of flexibility vs complexity right and (c) targeting at a market that wants it.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Hmm. I signed up, and looked at Les Saisies, a resort I know well (and was in 4 days ago, as it happens). Knowing nothing about developing apps, I can't begin to understand how this is supposed to work. There is a list of some of "eating and drinking" places, not all of which are in Les Saisies - one is in Megeve, a completely different area, and seems to be a chalet complex.
The initial list shows only a small selection of establishments. Les Saisies is only a small resort, though part of a large (200km) linked area. But although it's small its website has a lot more places listed than your app. How did your initial selection, for all those hundreds of resorts on your app, come about?
And supposing you can do successive trawls to include more establishments, how will you know what discounts they might offer to users of your app?
Sorry, I am willing to help with local knowledge, but just can't get my head round this.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| extremerob wrote: |
My two cents - target or start with a smaller region at first not the whole of the alps.
You need the userbase - and a big one - as they will be transitory - think about the changeover of people - and for that you need the resort to buy in to promote it on your behalf - or you need a sugga dada, and those oligarchs are harder to find.
You need the platform to allow the retailers to push the offers/promotions through to users (the app holders).
Scenario 1 - which I think you have been considering is the rental shop or the bar has a generic code or offer that is there all year.
Scenario 2 - where I think the real money is Bob's Bar is having a slow start to the night - it pushes through an offer that goes - buy 1 get 1 free beer - this then attracts customers. In a similar manner - one of the restaurants is having a slow night - pushes an offer through - free sides with any main - see what I am getting at.
How to monetize this - that is something else - and a lot easier when you are providing a platform for scenario 2.
Anyway - just some thoughts. |
Your thoughts are most welcome! I'd built in push notifications with the idea in mind that resort tourist offices would use them to let app users know about, say, a change in avalanche warning level, or a lift closure. I'd dismissed the idea of retailers having them for a couple of reasons: First, I thought users would get spammed. Second I assumed retailers wouldn't want to pay anything for an account (building, maintaining and running the back end admin system costs money so would need to pay for itself). However, if there we some way to control what was posted by the retailers, either by having a person review it before it got sent out (maybe not realistic, depending on the volume of retailers doing it), or by constraining what they can send out to 'time limited special offers', then I think it's a cracking idea!!!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@greengriff, have you done some maths at all on the scope of this?
Let's say there are 1,000 ski resorts just in Europe, and they have on average 3 ski shops, 3 cafes, 3 restaurants. Thats over 9000 entries and for each one you'll have to be constantly refreshing the data of opening hours, deals, contact info, pop up places that open for one season etc etc. If you get it wrong and I rock up in Meribel and your app has skis reserved for me in Les Allues then your app is going to get bad reviews.
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| LaForet wrote: |
Yes.
I'm thinking of the Verbier app as an example - v1 was quite useful with easy links to weather forecasts and webcams, plus a 'find my friends' function and showing the basic list of lifts and pistes and their open/shut status. It was also quite good at pushing out important announcements like a lift likely to shut down due to high winds or maintenance etc. But it never progressed to be a 'mobile first' version of the verbier.ch website with links to retailers and accommodation. They did a V.2 (presumably at some cost) but it actually dropped some functionality in favour of by then out-of-date ski activity scoring. It's now something of a zombie app due, I'm guessing, to both the cost of developing it further and the increased competition from other apps.
So what might appeal is some sort of generic, configurable platform which can be tailored. If you're a small ski resort, then it's attractive because you don't have the funds to invest in a lot of app dev, and if you're a large resort, it's attractive because you feel you're not getting value for money from your existing developers.
It's like website development: probably 95% of websites are built using website builders with only 5% or less hand-crafted by developers (albeit even they use development platforms). In your case, you'd be trying to create a niche app builder that was targeted at ski resorts and their clients. Of course, this is easy to describe at a high level - the trick will be in (a) how you make it configurable (b) getting the balance of flexibility vs complexity right and (c) targeting at a market that wants it. |
Fantastic feedback, thank you. That is probably pretty doable actually, mainly because I've gone for a very limited feature set that I thought would be applicable to all retailers in all resorts. This was because of my absolute inexperience, and lack of ability to do anything too fancy. Which - ironically I guess - is a sound base to start from given your thoughts above. Cheers!
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| pam w wrote: |
Hmm. I signed up, and looked at Les Saisies, a resort I know well (and was in 4 days ago, as it happens). Knowing nothing about developing apps, I can't begin to understand how this is supposed to work. There is a list of some of "eating and drinking" places, not all of which are in Les Saisies - one is in Megeve, a completely different area, and seems to be a chalet complex.
The initial list shows only a small selection of establishments. Les Saisies is only a small resort, though part of a large (200km) linked area. But although it's small its website has a lot more places listed than your app. How did your initial selection, for all those hundreds of resorts on your app, come about?
And supposing you can do successive trawls to include more establishments, how will you know what discounts they might offer to users of your app?
Sorry, I am willing to help with local knowledge, but just can't get my head round this. |
Thank you for replying. The way I initially gathered information was to google it and put it in an excel sheet. I then wrote a script to pull in further details for each entry (things like address, google review star rating etc.) The problem I had/have is that I don't know how spot on google's results are (e.g. they might include results from outside the resort).
Retailers can offer discounts to app users in two ways: They can either tell me and I'll post it on their entry in the app (I'm not quite ready to do that yet), or they can give an offer to a user who enquires through the app. All the retailers (bar one) that I've spoken to were happy to do this, because they'd acquired a lead at no cost.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
The problem I had/have is that I don't know how spot on google's results are
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I can imagine....The earlier suggestion to use resort websites seems likely to yield more, and more focussed, results. But it's hard to disagree with the more experienced commentators on this thread who reckon you have an impossible task on your hands!
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I think impossible is probably overstating it. After all, people do things way more remarkable than this each and every day. Tedious, time-consuming and long are probably 3 better words . I guess it depends how badly I want to do it.
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FAQ
