 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi all,
Mrs rjj501 had a season ending ACL injury back in Feb, resulting in surgery and a lot of physio. Naturally her ladyship is keen to get back out on the hill as soon as possible, and her surgeon and physio have both indicated that after Xmas this should be fine with precautions, so the question is… Ski Mojo, Donjoy Armour or something else?
We’d love to hear experiences people have had with various products or any suggestions/recommendations…?
Thanks in advance!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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A mojo isnt a brace, it reduces the force going through the knee. It's a 'ski for longer' device.
What precautions does the physio suggest?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I'm in a similar situation - snapped my ACL in April, but not had it reconstructed, as it isn't particularly unstable. Doing lots of physio, and both the consultant and the Physio say I should be fine to ski in March, but don't go in January! When I asked the about braces, the Physio suggested it would be more for my peace of mind than because I would really need to use one. The idea that if I had a brace, it would give me confidence, and I would therefore ski properly and less defensively, which would make it less likely I would get it wrong and injure myself. Slightly odd logic, but I do get it!
But still totally unsure what brace to get.
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Mrs t_m tore her ACL (and broke her ankle) at the beginning of March this year. No surgery needed. She's had dozens of physio sessions and 3 months of gym, and has been told she won't need a brace to work next season. Everyone’s different I guess.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@telford_mike, did she have it reconstructed, or just the physio?
I teach on a dry slope, and have been cautiously back doing our Autumn instructor training. Each session I gain more confidence, and I wonder if whether by the time I go and find real snow I'll feel I don't need one after all.
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| holidayloverxx wrote: |
| What precautions does the physio suggest? |
He said to make sure to be using correct form, not to ski beyond limits for recovery etc. and to wear a brace - she has a Donjoy one already (not the armor) from post-op which he said wasn’t suitable… but didn’t offer which one would be suitable… 
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@rjj501, if he thinks the donjoy isnt suitable then ask what is...he must know. Knee sleeve? Hinged? Full armour job (in which case he'll probably say Ossur CTi).
What protection is he expecting a brace to give if rehab has gone well?
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I used the hinged brace I was given after the op first few times skiing after ACL replacements. Mainly as a confidence thing as the surgeon said it wasn’t necessary. Certainly felt reassuring to have it strapped up nice and tight. Ditched it after a few days
A friend who skis without ACL’s uses the Donjoy brace and his knees still seem to be fine 10 years later.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@karin, No reconstruction surgery - just physio and gym. Doctor here in CH says she won't need a brace for skiing this winter.
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So even if the jury is out, is there any actual downside in using a brace (other than cost, and general faff on the hill) ?
I have the same situation with my wife - she ruptured her ACL in March, coming down the boismint red in Val Thorens. She hasn’t had it repaired (not a good candidate as hypermobile, so tendons too stretchy to be used apparently). She’s been doing her exercises religiously, and physio thinks she’ll be good for our Xmas trip.
But .. this could be the last time she tries skiing, if she doesn’t get on with it, or finds it too nerve wracking. So it feels like we have one shot at this, and want to maximise the chances of it going ok. She’s happy to restrict herself to greens and blues, but is still nervous about it - confidence is probably the major factor (assuming the rehab has done its job). While the physio is pretty ambivalent about the benefits of a brace, other than improving proprioception, it seems like it would be foolish not to. And given the stakes, we might as well go the full Donjoy Armour.
Any flaws in this thinking?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Pejoli, Just my thoughts, from my experience so far.
Getting back on my skis was nervewracking. We have had 4 or 5 one hour instructor training sessions so far, starting from very basic snowploughs, and working through to very basic parallels and a bit of backwards ploughing in the most recent session. I have found it very beneficial to get back into the skiing very gradually, each week realising that I can do it, the knee isn't going to give way under me, I'm not going to fall over and wreck it again. Everyone else has been watching me very closely to see if I'm allowing the apprehension to affect my skiing, and on the whole it hasn't. The first couple of sessions I really wanted the security of snowplough - if I hit a bump or lump, or lost balance with one leg, the other was there to support me, whereas parallel felt insecure and scary. When we first started working with plough parallels it felt odd, my proprioception of what my leg was doing was a little different, I had to think about what I was doing, but by the end of the hour it was fine. However, I am also still being very cautious because I haven't been given the go ahead to go skiing properly - a short dry ski slope isn't quite the same as a mountain!
So what I'm saying is, don't expect your wife to jump straight back to where she was before, maybe have a very gentle go in a fridge before hitting the slopes for real? Start gently just getting confidence in being on the skis, doing very basic stuff, and then gradually build the skills and the speed level back up again as she realises it is actually ok.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I have ossur CTI (ots (off the shelf)). Ots version is a lot cheaper than the custom one, though it is the same design behind it. I bought it and use it mainly for motocross and dirt bike enduro.
Last winter I skied 4 days and it was my first skiing after acl reconstruction. The first 2 days skiing I used the CTI brace.
The brace is a bit bulky since I also have optional knee cup on it (for the motocross) but it fitted fine under my skiing pants. There was at least enough space for them inside the pants. And the pants are just regular spyder skiing pants, not particularly bulky.
It was very good to ski with the braces on, and I hardly noticed them and they did not limit range of motion or anything like that. It gave me also a bit of confidence boost, since I was a little bit hesitant to start skiing again.
However I noticed the braces a bit while sitting in the chairlift. It was not limiting the range of motion, it was more the straps, tightening around the leg.
When I use the brace in motocross I am always wearing thinnest version of long johns under it. But still I get a bit sore after the straps. I think this would be fine with a bit thicker version of long johns. Soreness after the straps is probably the biggest cons on wearing knee brace. But thick long johns or leg high socks like fox knee brace sock should avoid it.
I don't plan to use the braces every time I ski, because I don't think I need them after having tried to ski without them. However I think I will use them if the conditions are bad, like poor visibility, etc. But I don't touch my dirtbike without wearing the brace.
And btw. I was not wearing the CTI brace when I snapped the ACL, I was wearing leatt c-frame (not recommended) in motocross.
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I used to wear and elastic bandage under the brace. Stopped it rubbing and slipping. Also a folded tissue under one hinge as it dug in and really hurt on the knobbly bit of my knee. Long johns over the top
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You know it makes sense.
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@karin,
Thanks, really useful insight - I was going to ask exactly this question! My wife’s strength rehab seems to be going well (her latest set includes one minute of two footed jumping, and ever increasingly strenuous and bizarre one leg squatting techniques), but I guess the proprioception is going to be quite affected still (she has exercises for that too, obviously).
When we went to Hemel last Xmas after the two year gap, I was quite surprised how generally rubbish we were on the first few runs (which I put down to the layoff/rental skis, but on reflection I realised was our usual experience of the initial 15 mins of every holiday, just a bit more in-your-face when you’re repeating the same 200 metres again and again). But now I’m putting myself in wife’s ski boots, I would find even that slope pretty intimidating for the first time back in her situation.
So I’m thinking we might be better waiting to get to resort, and using the nursery slopes which will be much bigger (and less chopped up than Hemel can get). It also sounds like we should get an instructor from the get-go, and make sure they are aware, and ideally familiar with reacclimatising someone in this situation (we generally always get lessons, but it’s usually a day 2/3/4 thing once we’ve got our ski-legs back). We’re going to be in Tignes Le Lac the week before Xmas, so I will give TDC and Evo2 a call - any other local suggestions welcome!
Having read up on the braces, I think We’re going to order both a donjoy full force, and an ossur cti ots with the intention of keeping the one that seems to fit the best.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Pejoli, my first trip after TPF was to val d'isere and I had private lessons with Steve Angus of TDC...fabulous for confidence building. I can recommend Gavin Lewis of TDC Tignes if over that side
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Poster: A snowHead
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@Pejoli, If your Instructor choices are booked up - I can recommend some names in VDI if that would help. It shouldn't be a problem as you can ski over to the meeting point for the first lesson and after that, arrange to meet somewhere that suits.....When we were staying in Le Lac, that was at the entrance to the Bubble at the top of Toviere.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@holidayloverxx, thanks - they will definitely be getting a call! @Old Fartbag, also thanks, will shout if needed.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@rjj501, have a read of this, which is a different take on the classic brace.
I do a lot of stuff and abuse my knees and earlier this year this really helped and not just for skiing.
Only issue is I think it's still not available in Europe
https://www.stylealtitude.com/stoko-ski-kneebrace.html
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@Weathercam,
Interesting idea, and good to hear it helps you - I see these were discussed on a previous thread…
We took delivery of a donjoy armour earlier in the week (from Health and Care - arrived in a couple of days, and very competitively priced at a shade over £400). A nice bit of kit, but the jury is definitely still out, my wife finds it quite uncomfortable, and it seems prone to slipping - this may be down to not having the adjustments quite right yet (who knew doing up a few Velcro straps could be so complicated). We’re going to order an Ossur to compare and contrast to see if they are suited better to her anatomy.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Another vote for Ossur CTI pro sport.
Did a full ski season with one 8.5 months after having ACL replaced and meniscus repair/trim.
I feel it Really helped hold everything together.
Next season i stopped using the brace as I felt the knee was back as good as it was gonna be.
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Hi
I fit both CTi and Donjoy Armor braces in my (physio) clinic, as good as one another in my opinion.
Both similar cost and certainly not cheap - but skiing not a cheap activity and well worth the cost in my opinion
They are strong but lightweight and are designed to stop lateral movement and minimise rotation through the knee. I would recommend them to any ACL injured patient whether repaired or not.
My wife skis with a CTi after having an ACL repair 5 years ago. She says she doesn't know she has it on most of the time.
Unless you have a markedly different leg shape the off the shelf varieties are perfectly good- they come in 6 different sizes, short versions for those under
5ft 4 in, and the condyle pads can be thickened slightly to get a better fit.
I would say the CTi is a little easier to fit as a bit less velcro!
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@wavester, as a former CTi user I agree about easier fit.
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I’m a physio and this isn’t medical advice but many studies say that wearing a brace actually decreases a joint’s proprioception. IE it makes it harder to perceive and adapt to changes in direction, uneven surface, quick response. Etc. I’m a master class on this as I tore both ACLs separately over 20 years ago, rehabbed, wore TWO braces (donjoy) while skiing, and then dumped both once all of this research came out. I was scared poo-less but I did fine. Even had meniscus surgery 18 months ago and skied last season.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@wavester, my wife has found the Donjoy very uncomfortable as the condyle pads clamp onto her knee and makes it quite sore over the MCL, which she also strained when she ruptured the ACL at the start of March - it’s painful enough that she doesn’t think she could wear it for any length of time.
She measures bang in the middle of the three measurements for the Medium, so it should be the right size, but the pads are tight enough on her knee that it will stay in place on its own without any straps done up - does that sound too tight? I think I’ve read you can spread the hinges with a bit of brute force - presumably an advantage of the metal donjoy over the carbon fibre CTI - but loathe to try that if we have to send it back.
We have a CTI in the post, but if the pads do need to be that tight on the knee for these types of braces, I think she’ll have the same problem with that one as well.
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@Pejoli, I used to put a folded tissue under the condyle pad and that worked great
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Pejoli,
| Quote: |
When we went to Hemel last Xmas after the two year gap, I was quite surprised how generally rubbish we were on the first few runs (which I put down to the layoff/rental skis, but on reflection I realised was our usual experience of the initial 15 mins of every holiday, just a bit more in-your-face when you’re repeating the same 200 metres again and again). But now I’m putting myself in wife’s ski boots, I would find even that slope pretty intimidating for the first time back in her situation.
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Our slope is a dry slope - much more predictable slope, and slower. Think I would still be very cautious if I went to Hemel! I think another thing to think about is how busy the slope is - she doesn't want to be worrying about having to do anything sudden to avoid people until she knows what she is capable of.
Sounds like my rehab is in a pretty similar place to your wife's - 2 footed bouncing, 2 footed jumping onto and off a 30cm high box, various single leg squats and balancing exercises.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I have a CTi which I have used for 23 years for skiing and ceilidh dancing - because of the possible knee twisting. I have had 8 injuries to my left knee starting with partial ACL tears when I was in my early 30s (now 73). Three injuries were not skiing. My consultant told me I needed to get the brace for skiing as if I injured any more of my knee I would not be able to walk. I did eventually completely tear my ACL, even wearing the brace, and had a surgical repair age 55 which is now probably the most stable part of my knee. I estimate I have skied something like 500+ days with the brace which allows me to ski anywhere on the mountain and I don't know I am wearing it. I had 1 day when the brace did not arrive with my luggage (its a long story!) and I had to ski without it. I used to judge world cup mogul skiing and had to get to the course, no brace so just had to get there. It was OK but I could only ski blue runs and not aggressively as my knee is unstable. I have never skied again without it.
When I had a tibial plateau fracture, which was just a hairline crack and did not need surgery, I wore the brace while I was non-weight bearing and the crack healed quickly. I had a meniscus repair in 2018 after dancing on holiday without the brace.
My knee is fine for everyday walking but so much has been damaged over the years I need more stability to ski everywhere.
I remove the velcro straps and hand wash them from time to time but wear the brace over thin thermals for skiing and over a tubigrip if dancing.
Its the best £400 I have paid. I will be in Tignes 10 to 17 December - with the brace!
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As I mentioned a few posts up, we decided to order and try both the Donjoy and the CTI. For my wife, the Donjoy was a better match - and she really didn’t like the cti as the plastic buckles that connect the straps to the brace have no padding behind them, and ended up digging in and actually pinched her a couple of times. The Donjoy did feel a much more substantial piece of kit too, and was actually cheaper than the CTI.
She’s been wearing it round the house and gardening a lot, and has got over the initial problem she had with it making her MCL sore. We’ll find how it does for real in a few weeks (also off to Tignes @mogulski, but from the 17th).
(Can also recommend Health and Care - great pricing, and the return was v. straightforward)
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You know it makes sense.
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I’m probably going to have to take the plunge on a £400+ brace but before I do I thought I’d try something cheaper like Novamed Lightweight Hinged Knee Support. It seems to be a pretty substantial bit of kit but under £100. Antone with experience skiing with one?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Spend £30 or £400.
In my view anything in between is a waste of money.
Jonathan Bell
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Poster: A snowHead
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Spoken like a true surgeon! Appreciate the advice- you’re probably dead right. As a physician I’ll hedge! Novamed ordered. I’ll maybe see you with my MRI results in January!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Doccam wrote: |
| Spoken like a true surgeon! Appreciate the advice- you’re probably dead right. As a physician I’ll hedge! Novamed ordered. I’ll maybe see you with my MRI results in January! |
At least it’s snowing 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Jonathan Bell,
| Quote: |
Spend £30 or £400.
In my view anything in between is a waste of money.
Jonathan Bell
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Can you elaborate why, please?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| karin wrote: |
@Jonathan Bell,
| Quote: |
Spend £30 or £400.
In my view anything in between is a waste of money.
Jonathan Bell
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Can you elaborate why, please? |
I would certainly not dream of speaking for Johnathan Bell - but suspect that anything below £400 will not be effective - so if you are not prepared to spend that but still want something, a cheap £30 one will bring a certain warmth (blood flow) to the knee and give a feeling of reassurance.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Old Fartbag, I probably paraphrase badly but sure Jonathan relayed that a cheap compression bandage / knee supoort is beneficial due to the feedback from the pressure gives the brain extra singles to help t work out where it is when you have damage inside the knee. So given this is "all" it is doing there is no point spending more than £30 as you no extra benefits until hitting those above £400 ones. He gave the name but I can never remember (or spell) it
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@NickyJ, Interesting - so I was on the right track, but not necessarily for the right reason. 
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| NickyJ wrote: |
| @Old Fartbag, I probably paraphrase badly but sure Jonathan relayed that a cheap compression bandage / knee supoort is beneficial due to the feedback from the pressure gives the brain extra singles to help t work out where it is when you have damage inside the knee. So given this is "all" it is doing there is no point spending more than £30 as you no extra benefits until hitting those above £400 ones. He gave the name but I can never remember (or spell) it |
Hats off to you! I think i posted on that ages ago.
In a sense you are both right.
A cheapo gives a sense of security, a reminder, warmth and some ( proven) improvement in proprioception ( feedback to the brain that allows your brain to control movement better).
An expensive brace does this as well but probably gives some additional control.
In the middle you get the proprioception benefit but not the improvement in physical restraint/control.
Having said that it needs to be comfortable so if spending a bit extra to be comfortable helps then by all means justify the extra expense.
Jonathan Bell
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| Jonathan Bell wrote: |
In a sense you are both right.
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If ever you fancy a career change - I would suggest diplomacy.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I asked because I have to make a decision at some point on what to do about braces for when I go skiing in March. Not going to worry about it too much till after my next consultant appointment mid-January though. Assuming that the appointment ends up being with the consultant I saw last time, and not an underling... Not to bash the NHS, but it is a bit hit and miss. The consultant is one of Jonathan Bell's Wimbledon colleagues.
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FAQ
