 Poster: A snowHead
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I know, I've bitten off a lot here, and I expect to hear from some of the usual suspects, but work with me for a moment.
No need to revisit all of our varied experiences there. I'm on the rainy side, you're on the sunny side; I've been there x times and you y. "Sample size", etc. Whatever.
Just answer this question:
If you were sending someone over the pond to ski in NA at either a major ski resort (e.g. Whistler) or major ski region (e.g. Salt Lake City, B.C. Interior), to which ski area/region would you send them where you felt the chances of rain were HIGHER than at Whistler?
I can name no such place, and I don't expect anyone else to either. But if you can I will stand corrected.
So: consider Whistler, it is a world-class ski resort, one of the best on the planet. Just have your eyes open about the weather and your willingness to accept a higher chance of rain vs elsewhere. (And for those still unconvinced, I remind them to consult data at Environment Canada, whose data reveal that on average Whistler gets 10 days of rain and 12 of snow in each of the four winter months.)
Ready, aim, fire! (a reminder for a couple of you that the sequence is important!) 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
Just answer this question:
If you were sending someone over the pond to ski in NA at either a major ski resort (e.g. Whistler) or major ski region (e.g. Salt Lake City, B.C. Interior), to which ski area/region would you send them where you felt the chances of rain were HIGHER than at Whistler?
I can name no such place, and I don't expect anyone else to either. But if you can I will stand corrected.
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Killington?
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No need to revisit all of our varied experiences there. I'm on the rainy side, you're on the sunny side; I've been there x times and you y. "Sample size", etc. Whatever. |
https://bestsnow.net/snoqlnet.htm
And,
https://bestsnow.net/pwdrpct.htm
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Mon 13-06-22 16:45; edited 2 times in total
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Valley/village level or alpine level? The difference is important. I'd say from experience Tahoe can get pretty wet around lake level too and that is highly preferable to it being warm and sunny because the latter tends to mean a sustained high pressure block on storms.
I don't think your proposition that Whistler is the rainiest of major N American resorts is that flawed but I do think that it's also a reason that it gets some of the most snow in winter. I'd also compare Bellingham with Baker for the same reason.
There's no perfect resort. The more interior you are the more altitude and distance moisture has to travel affect storms and mid continental cold has an effect. I know Colorado has a surprisingly high number of sunny days but also the corollary is that a big dump is one approaching 12 inches not 48 etc. SLC might be perfect bar the fact that when a storm rolls in there is a huuuge urban population ready to shred it in minutes.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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No need to revisit all of our varied experiences there
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Hard to talk about a place without including our own experiences.
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Environment Canada, whose data reveal that on average Whistler gets 10 days of rain and 12 of snow in each of the four winter months.)
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I don't care about what the weather is doing in the village. Rain at 700m often means dumping snow higher up and let's be honest all the good terrain is above mid station.
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to which ski area/region would you send them where you felt the chances of rain were HIGHER than at Whistler?
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None of what I'd consider the major resorts have a higher risk of rain. However, that doesn't prove the risk of rain at whistler is high. It also doesn't mean other resorts have great weather, for example you will never get rain at lake Louise, but you also get 3 metres less snow on average each season.
I'll flip the question and ask where in North America are you more likely to get a 20cm+ dump than whistler? Where do you get more days with snowfall?
That's the thing with whistler, when there is a pineapple express (which I'd argue is not particularly common), you know a complete refresh is probably only a day or two away.
If whistler weather was as bad as some make out why does it remain so popular? And it's not just tourists that maybe don't know better, but plenty of pros and experienced skiers that could live in much cheaper places choose to keep living there.
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@Mike Pow, both possibly true, but remember that the bar to clear is places you'd actually recommend to people, not merely identifying other ski places where it rains. As the question is worded, you are answering that you would send folks to New England and Washington vs....the rest of the NA continent. I don't know ya, but I don't think you would do this. I'm proud of my home state, but no one should make it their first NA ski destination, or fifth.
The answer has to be a place where it rains as much or more than Whistler AND is a place where it is sufficiently worth someone's time and money to cross the pond that you'd suggest they go there.
(As an aside, Crystal Mountain is a damn good local hill about 2 hours from Seattle, and it hardly ever rains there, unlike most of our other areas (higher). Come here and I'll give you a guided tour. But by all means go to Utah first!)
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| Scooter in Seattle wrote: |
@Mike Pow, both possibly true, but remember that the bar to clear is places you'd actually recommend to people, not merely identifying other ski places where it rains. As the question is worded, you are answering that you would send folks to New England and Washington vs....the rest of the NA continent. I don't know ya, but I don't think you would do this. I'm proud of my home state, but no one should make it their first NA ski destination, or fifth.
The answer has to be a place where it rains as much or more than Whistler AND is a place where it is sufficiently worth someone's time and money to cross the pond that you'd suggest they go there.
(As an aside, Crystal Mountain is a damn good local hill about 2 hours from Seattle, and it hardly ever rains there, unlike most of our other areas (higher). Come here and I'll give you a guided tour. But by all means go to Utah first!) |
I've been recommending Washington for years.
Skied Crystal, Baker & Alpental as well as Mount St Helens and Mt Adams
Seattle as a base for skiing is tremendous IMHO.
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@Mike Pow, wow, a unicorn! Anyone here who thinks more highly of my hometown than I do is in the will!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Scooter in Seattle wrote: |
| @Mike Pow, wow, a unicorn! Anyone here who thinks more highly of my hometown than I do is in the will! |
I'll send my address 
Had two bites of the Emerald City back in 2004/05 winter.
Flew to Seattle for a week in late November and scored great days at Baker and Crystal before heading to Keystone for the season.
Long but very worth it day trips. Pay off was proper restaurants, bars and live music in the evenings.
Left Colorado at the start of April and road tripped it Whitefish, Montana taking in Utah, Wyoming and Montana resorts before catching the train to Seattle.
Alpental, St Helens and Adams and the start of the baseball season
And a couple of days at the Oregon Coast.
Magic
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the bar to clear is places you'd actually recommend to people, not merely identifying other ski places where it rains. As the question is worded, you are answering that you would send folks to New England and Washington vs....the rest of the NA. continent.
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Killington is definitely a ski destination!
Would I recommend it for crossing the pond? Not usually. But it is a lot shorter flight. So yes, given the right criteria, I would recommend it.
I too, found the constant reference to the R word for Whistler a little over the top. I've been in Whistler when it rained in the village. I had a brilliant time skiing on the high alpine sector. So, to qualify as a pure negative, it needs to rain all the way to the top, which I'm told it's relatively infrequent(?).
Personally, I have more problem with the general "precipitation" frequency than just rain. The times I stayed at Whistler, there're just as many days when the high alpine was closed due to avi danger. While I accept that being part of the condition that makes fantastic snow once the avi mitigation is done, not everyone cares to ski knee deep powder! (yes, sacrilege it may sound. But I know of plenty of skiers who prefer well consolidated snow) So it really boils down to the type of skiers whether "rain" would be an issue or not.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Mon 13-06-22 19:27; edited 3 times in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Interesting question this one.
I have talked with many British skiers who have had dismal, disappointing holidays in Whistler.
"It rained all the time", my one and only trip was the lucky one.
Each evening/night we had 20-30cms of snowfall in the village!!! So, I would say to anyone considering the big W. It rains........ frequently, but when you get the snow wow!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| abc wrote: |
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the bar to clear is places you'd actually recommend to people, not merely identifying other ski places where it rains. As the question is worded, you are answering that you would send folks to New England and Washington vs....the rest of the NA continent.
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Killington is definitely a ski destination!
Would I recommend it for crossing the pond? Not usually. But it is a lot shorter flight. So yes, given the right criteria, I would recommend it.
I too, found the constant reference to the R word for Whistler a little over the top. I've been in Whistler when it rained in the village. I had a brilliant time skiing on the high alpine sector. So, to qualify as a pure negative, it needs to rain all the way to the top, which I'm told it's relatively infrequent(?).
Personally, I have more problem with the general "precipitation" frequency than just rain. The times I stayed at Whistler, there're just as many days when the high alpine was closed due to avi danger. While I accept that being part of the condition that makes fantastic snow once the avi mitigation is done, not everyone cares to ski knee deep powder! So it really boils down to the type of skiers whether "rain" would be an issue or not. |
I think the flights are surprisingly not all that different (~7 vs ~9 hours) due to the flying over the top aspect, but apart from that, think that summarizes Whistler pretty well (see, we can agree too! @Scooter in Seattle has inadvertently created harmony with his most provocative of topics )
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not everyone cares to ski knee deep powder! (yes, sacrilege it may sound.
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Easily the most controversial thing said about this topic! perhaps the answer is don't worry about the rain the problem with whistler is too much snow 
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You know it makes sense.
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| stuarth wrote: |
| I think the flights are surprisingly not all that different (~7 vs ~9 hours) due to the flying over the top aspect, but apart from that, think that summarizes Whistler pretty well (see, we can agree too! @Scooter in Seattle has inadvertently created harmony with his most provocative of topics ) |
It's both the flight time and also the jetlag. A 6 hr time difference is sort of manageable. 9 hr is getting borderline miserable, except to access something unavailable in Europe making it worthwhile.
Personally, I don't think it's worth crossing the pond just to ski unless the skier wants to do something the Alps don't have (off piste without guide). A big motivation for many skiing the North America is combining it with sightseeing visits of this continent. There're a lot of sights in the east coast for people to visit. So east coast mountains can be a good fit.
Yes, we agree on the point that Whistler has so much variety that it fits a lot of different type of skiers. The kind of skiers who SHOULD be crossing the pond to ski in NA, that is.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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This is a splendidly theological Snowheads thread. How many angels can dance on the head of a pin. And could they still dance if the snow was deep and unpisted. And even if they could, would they enjoy it?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| abc wrote: |
Ski forums are biased by people who sing the praises of powder at all cost. The general skiing public doesn't support that sentiment. A very large percentage of skiers don't know how to ski unconsolidated snow of more than 5cm. Whistler is one of the worst in that regard. Once those wet powders got pushed into random piles and lumps, it takes a very good skier to "have fun" on.
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Never a truer word said. Without one-week-a-year piste skiers, the ski holiday industry would be largely dead within a season. Powderhounds ride on the backs of these holidaymakers (which is fine), but by and large they aren’t the core market that resorts are aiming at. Anyway, back to Whistler….
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Anyway, back to Whistler….
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Whistler has a lot of well groomed runs. And the long vertical means there're often a subset of the mountain that has almost "perfect" snow condition, whatever you're after! You just have to look for it.
Bottom line, Whistler has everything, the good, the bad, and the ugly (aka powder, if that's your thing)! 
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| Rogerdodger wrote: |
Interesting question this one.
I have talked with many British skiers who have had dismal, disappointing holidays in Whistler.
"It rained all the time", my one and only trip was the lucky one.
Each evening/night we had 20-30cms of snowfall in the village!!! So, I would say to anyone considering the big W. It rains........ frequently, but when you get the snow wow! |
I’d be in the disappointment camp, I went 5 years in a row, for 10-14 day trips and probably had what I would consider 2 days of powder skiing (but I have high standards). Before anyone jumps in with you were in the wrong place, or you didn’t know where to go, I went out with local guides, back country toured, and Cat and Heli-skied. The upside was that I only had 2 days when it rained enough to be miserable.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| PowderAdict wrote: |
| Rogerdodger wrote: |
Interesting question this one.
I have talked with many British skiers who have had dismal, disappointing holidays in Whistler.
"It rained all the time", my one and only trip was the lucky one.
Each evening/night we had 20-30cms of snowfall in the village!!! So, I would say to anyone considering the big W. It rains........ frequently, but when you get the snow wow! |
I’d be in the disappointment camp, I went 5 years in a row, for 10-14 day trips and probably had what I would consider 2 days of powder skiing (but I have high standards). Before anyone jumps in with you were in the wrong place, or you didn’t know where to go, I went out with local guides, back country toured, and Cat and Heli-skied. The upside was that I only had 2 days when it rained enough to be miserable. |
Jesus, that's a hell of a streak. 50-70 days of skiing with only 2 powder days. And 2 rain days.
Please don't come to Hokkaido this winter
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| Mike Pow wrote: |
| PowderAdict wrote: |
| Rogerdodger wrote: |
Interesting question this one.
I have talked with many British skiers who have had dismal, disappointing holidays in Whistler.
"It rained all the time", my one and only trip was the lucky one.
Each evening/night we had 20-30cms of snowfall in the village!!! So, I would say to anyone considering the big W. It rains........ frequently, but when you get the snow wow! |
I’d be in the disappointment camp, I went 5 years in a row, for 10-14 day trips and probably had what I would consider 2 days of powder skiing (but I have high standards). Before anyone jumps in with you were in the wrong place, or you didn’t know where to go, I went out with local guides, back country toured, and Cat and Heli-skied. The upside was that I only had 2 days when it rained enough to be miserable. |
Jesus, that's a hell of a streak. 50-70 days of skiing with only 2 powder days. And 2 rain days.
Please don't come to Hokkaido this winter |
Yep, I believed the marketing, the trip reports, the 10m+ average snow per year, but I didn't get that experience. With hindsight the reporting of how much snow they have had so far in the season, rather than how much they have currently should have rang the alarm bells. I do know a few people who have had spectacular trips to Whistler, you just have to be there at the right time. The other issue is that thousands of locals materialise on powder days, so everything is skied out very quickly.
Needless to say I had more powder days on my first week on Hokkaido in 2016, than on all the previous trips to Whistler
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I don't think it's controversial at all.
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That whole post was a little tongue in cheek, hence the smiley face, but perhaps it didn't come across through the internet. I'd actually accept that many don't want deep powder, just have to look at European skiing to see how popular pisted skiing can be. That said for a skier who just wants groomers, while whistler has some good ones, it doesn't compare to Europe.
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Without one-week-a-year piste skiers...
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I think the mindset is different in North America though. Many of the 1 week per year skiers are on pretty fat all mountain skis and interested in finding some powder. As soon as they've mastered the basics instructors are taking their groups off piste. I suspect the accessibility is a big factor for this. Perhaps they can't ski deep powder well, but they are not just skiing groomers either.
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Personally, I don't think it's worth crossing the pond just to ski unless the skier wants to do something the Alps don't have (off piste without guide). A big motivation for many skiing the North America is combining it with sightseeing visits of this continent.
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Agree with not traveling a huge distance for skiing that's not better for someone's personal requirements to what they have on their doorstep. I'm a bit skeptical about the sightseeing add on, but I suppose some is personal preference. I love New York, but East coast skiing is a bit limited compared to out west and I wouldn't make that sacrifice. A lot of the cities most convenient to add to a ski trip (Denver, Vancouver etc.) are nice enough but not places you'd fly half way around the world to see (pretty much any European capital is more interesting imo). Yellowstone from Jackson hole might be the exception.
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| ... I went 5 years in a row, for 10-14 day trips and probably had what I would consider 2 days of powder skiing (but I have high standards). ...I went out with local guides, back country toured, and Cat and Heli-skied. |
In Whistler specifically I've a few decades experience of running weather and booking systems for heli and cat operators. I've spent a lot of time out there using the product with everyone from product design people through magazines and film crews, all of whom rock up for reasons which seem to contradict the OP. I'm fairly close to the obvious companies guiding companies and likely know the people involved.
With heli, rain is a problem for multiple reasons: (a) you can't expect people to pay money to ride rained-on (or tracked out) snow; (b) most people can't actually ride rained on deep snow; (c) as you're likely flying around the freezing point, blade ice is often an issue. In short, you ought never to be heli-skiing in the rain (!) anywhere. One of the problems of heli in Whistler is precisely that the best time to ride is in the storm, and heli can't fly in those conditions. Places like Bella Coola, Iceland and AK have bigger down day ratios for the same reason.
Cats are more flexible, but again almost no guests are capable of riding untracked snow with a rained-on top layer; none of them would want to pay for such a thing; we'd not want to charge them for it; and it would be downright dangerous. I once recall driving all the way up and all the way down, because we only discovered the rain event once we got up there. Everyone was obviously refunded. On those rare occasions real people ride the prepared pistes - rained on deep snow is unridable in practice.
| mp wrote: |
| Please don't come to Hokkaido ... |
And of course stay away from BC - North America's most popular resort is fine without luck like that
Whistler's weather is a matter of record, and the piste map design specifically caters for it including the massively obvious "peak to peak".
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I've never thought of peak to peak in that regard. I always thought it was aimed at foot passenger tourists rather than skiers. I guess you could use it to switch between mountains avoiding rain in the village, but are you wasting time for zero elevation on presumably a snow day to swap mountains?
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Having done a season in Whistler pre Olympics and P2P I always assumed it was more of a tourist draw than a skiing enhancement, but it actually proved pretty useful compared to the time suck of skiing suboptimal snow to the base and allowed you to ski Blackcomb without worrying massively about logistics of how to get back to Creekside (in a bus strike) for instance.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
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I don't think it's controversial at all.
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That whole post was a little tongue in cheek, hence the smiley face, but perhaps it didn't come across through the internet. |
My bad. I got the tongue in cheek part but just want to bring it back to what majority of peeps want rather than just adding to the forum participants echo chamber.
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Without one-week-a-year piste skiers...
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I think the mindset is different in North America though. Many of the 1 week per year skiers are on pretty fat all mountain skis and interested in finding some powder. As soon as they've mastered the basics instructors are taking their groups off piste. I suspect the accessibility is a big factor for this. Perhaps they can't ski deep powder well, but they are not just skiing groomers either.
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That's correct. North American skiers are much quicker to veer off the groomers into off piste. However, once-week-a-season skiers can't ski powder well, purely due to the lack of practice. Think about it, how often they get to practice in powder when they only ski 1 week a season? In fact, it's a rather annoying phenomena when some of them would drop into a virgin field of powder and traverse across, because they couldn't skis it. Ruin it for everyone else.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Dave of the Marmottes, good point I hadnt considered how much easier P2P makes getting back to Creekside from blackcomb at the end of the day, when the trails to the village are best avoided due to mass of people.
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The obvious non opinionated way would be to look at the historical weather of the various places and compare- though that's a bit boring!
That done, I will now totally ignore @Scooter in Seattles original instructions  and add a long-winded, less scientific, more opinionated method since I'm fortunate enough to ski Whistler pretty much every week of the ski season - even in crappy conditions because my kids train there.
Realistically there are some weeks I don't want to be skiing, but rainy ones perhaps account for only a few times per season. Mostly when I can't be bothered it is due to it being really cold, lack of recent snow, the off piste being solid, or similar - ie less than epic (no pun intended!) and me being picky and/or lazy!! For cruising around it would probably be fine.
This season was a good example; really cold over Christmas, then really epic pow, then fairly dry for a good long time meaning ok but not stellar conditions. Only Kicking horse had really good conditions of all the places we went to (I guess I am almost back on topic there! )
A well-timed injury meant I missed most of the dry spell in whistler, but the dry spell ended in late March/early April with so much snow the bike park struggled to get going in May!
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You know it makes sense.
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Straying even further from the topic, I wonder if @philwig hit the nail on the head on the other thread with regard to the point about Epic passes.
One big plus (from Vails perspective) is the geographic spread - if one resort is having bad conditions, another is probably doing ok.
Since Vail seems to lean on Epic pass sales, and I'd guess that most of these are purchased in North America, perhaps by people with more flexibility with respect to timing and location, does this mean that any Whistler weather variability is moot?*
*unless you happen to be travelling from far afar and have booked a few weeks way in advance
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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*unless you happen to be travelling from far afar and have booked a few weeks way in advance
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For people traveling to ski, I mean not just those crossing the pond but also skiers within North America, lodging and flight are actually just as significant as lift passes. So it doesn't always makes sense to limit oneself to what the pass offers.
And for all the appearance of geographic "diversity" of Vail Corp, not all Vail mountains are even remotely similar! Case in point, January 2020, I was sitting on an Epic pass looking at Whistler's web site, dismayed at the meager <50% terrain open, none of them in the high alpine zone. I kept checking the forecast daily and still nothing! Tahoe was in the same snow draught as Whistler. Sure, I could have gone to Colorado. But I may sound jaded, Colorado is not the least bit like Whistler!!!
(the other traditional early season resorts, Steamboat, Jackson Hole, are not on Epic pass)
Fortunately for me, snow finally started falling in late January and continued into February. I jumped on the plane and squeezed in a week before President's week making lodging entirely unaffordable (or non-existing). Tahoe never got their share of snow that year.
So I'm afraid Whistler weather is not moot even in the days of mega passes.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
are you wasting time for zero elevation on presumably a snow day to swap mountains? |
P2P isn't any slower than any other lifts. So, don't see why not.
I get the picking a sector and stay there for a while part. But sometimes condition may warrant switching/moving on. P2P makes that possible, or at least expands the possible options.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| abc wrote: |
| boarder2020 wrote: |
are you wasting time for zero elevation on presumably a snow day to swap mountains? |
P2P isn't any slower than any other lifts. So, don't see why not.
I get the picking a sector and stay there for a while part. But sometimes condition may warrant switching/moving on. P2P makes that possible, or at least expands the possible options. |
Well you first have to get to P2P which may take more than 1 lift if skiing crystal for instance, or be a "wasted run" elsewhere e.g. you could get there from top of harmony but it's a pretty boring route. Then you have the actual P2P lift time. Then you really need another lift to get from the P2P base up to the alpine. It adds up.
I just can't think of a situation where conditions would be markedly better on the other mountain. I guess whistler doesn't have much south facing stuff in comparison to 7th heaven.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@boarder2020,
Creekside parking->creekside gondola->red chair->peak to peak->Blackcomb
There are actually lots of times, in fact long periods, when the snow is better on one mountain than the other due to the different aspects, storm loading, winds, etc... Sometimes it is weirdly inexplicable as to why, but it really happens
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| stuarth wrote: |
@boarder2020,
Creekside parking->creekside gondola->red chair->peak to peak->Blackcomb
There are actually lots of times, in fact long periods, when the snow is better on one mountain than the other due to the different aspects, storm loading, winds, etc... Sometimes it is weirdly inexplicable as to why, but it really happens |
Yeah i already said above I can see why P2P is actually really useful for Creeksiders.
I can certainly believe one can be a little better than the other. But if one's good you should be able to find something good on the other. The aspects, wind, and snow accumulations are just not *that* different imo.
The thing is, if one is long term better you should know that before going up. Or perhaps whistler alpine didn't open yesterday and blackcomb did so you head there. It would be hard to be skiing one and know the other is better and worth the switch.
Maybe I'm just bitter because I've got stung a few times thinking the grass is greener and wasting time switching mountains, and it never really worked out.
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