High edge angles an output that is often focussed on. However explaining how to create / achieve them in plain English is not easy.
Get your inside leg down to the snow quickly after your transition to the outside ski. The quicker you do it, the tighter the turn.
Play with it. It’s fun when you get your timing right.
Must maintain your shin pressure for better control.
And stay loose in your legs and tight in your core - which is the bit I struggle with coz I have no core muscles
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@esteban525, That covers a lot of what I am working on - and I emphasise "working on", rather than succeeding at. Very clearly explained - excellent.
If it's OK, I have a question, which is skiing related, rather than High Edge Angle related:
Years ago, I was taught to "Lead Change" (or "Switch" as the Americans called it), which then became totally obsolete and generally unhelpful, with modern technique and carving skis.....but I have recently seen 2 YouTube Instructional videos, with highly competent Mogul Skiers in The States (one was a Coach who works with Deb Armstrong and the other a former US Team Freestyle skier), advocating "active" Lead Change when skiing Bumps (rather than natural Lead Change that you get for "free" when skiing normally).
Is this an American thing, as I haven't seen it advocated before?
@esteban525, that’s a great article. Thanks. It put into words things I had been doing intuitively, right and wrong. I intend to read & reread it before the next ski season.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@Old Fartbag
Quote:
Years ago, I was taught to "Lead Change" (or "Switch" as the Americans called it), which then became totally obsolete and generally unhelpful, with modern technique and carving skis.....but I have recently seen 2 YouTube Instructional videos, with highly competent Mogul Skiers in The States (one was a Coach who works with Deb Armstrong and the other a former US Team Freestyle skier), advocating "active" Lead Change when skiing Bumps (rather than natural Lead Change that you get for "free" when skiing normally).
Lead change is not something you have to intentionally do. It happens naturally, and just a little. The modern technique is to pull the "new inside ski" back, at transition.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Am I the only one that finds it quite hard to translate written or verbal description into action on skis & vice versa?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Analyse this, 56 yr old male, 90kg on 95mm / 16m radius twin tip skis. I have been a motorcyclist for 40+ years and a desire to get lean angles to scrape the footrests on a bike has translated to skiing, trying to get as far over as possible in the turn. Hopefully I can load the full sequence of photos.
The piste was a bit hard & icy not exactly hero snow & I think my age & lack of strength are against me getting any lower (more appropriate skis might help)
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
@tangowaggon, nice a-frame shot #2
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
tangowaggon wrote:
Analyse this, 56 yr old male, 90kg on 95mm / 16m radius twin tip skis. I have been a motorcyclist for 40+ years and a desire to get lean angles to scrape the footrests on a bike has translated to skiing, trying to get as far over as possible in the turn. Hopefully I can load the full sequence of photos. {
Looks to me like too much inclination with out being able to balance effectively over the outside ski (which is breaking away).
Try
1) get weight on outside ski early in turn before trying to make bigger angles via inclination
2) working on lateral separation / angulation at end of turn to balance against forces created
3) feet closer together and hip width apart
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
esteban525 wrote:
Lead change is not something you have to intentionally do. It happens naturally, and just a little. The modern technique is to pull the "new inside ski" back, at transition.
Thank You.
Just so I can show exactly what I'm referring to, these are the 2 Video Clips.
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Tue 19-04-22 14:11; edited 1 time in total
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@tangowaggon, While waiting for a more qualified opinion, this is what I see (which could easily be off the mark):
1. There are times when your skis appear to be too split (Too much tip lead)....but it could be the angle the photos are taken from.
2. I think you are going for "Long Leg/Short Leg" to achieve high edge angles. I suspect your general skiing stance may be too wide....So if you narrow it to Hip-Width (or even a bit less) to start with....and then increase (ski) separation, Only by gradually retracting the Unweighted Ski directly under the hip ie. Vertically - That should allow/enable the Toppling (which may be the missing element). If the amount of (ski) separation, which is seen in your photos, was all generated vertically, from a narrower stance, your hips should be almost touching the snow (I think). If like me, you are a bit old and stiff - and learned Old School - it is far from easy.
3. Your Unweighted Ski needs to be more active re edge angle (should match the D/Hill ski angle).....almost impossible if general stance is too wide. IMV. The turn should be initiated, by the ankle/foot of the now unweighted D/Hill ski, tipping into the new turn (onto its Little Toe Edge) ie. While weight is on the U/Hill ski just prior to turning, the newly Unweighted (about to be U/Hill) Ski should be pulled back (avoids too much Tip Lead) and tipped into the new turn - which helps avoid A-Frame, by moving first.
4. I suspect the width of your stance could be causing too much weight to be placed onto your U/Hill ski, at times. As I understand it, the gradual vertical retraction of the Unweighted Ski, causes the distance between the skis to widen through the turn (incrementally increasing the edge angle of the Weighted Ski) - but the distance between the skis should return to around Hip width at transition, so you can repeat in the other direction. The skis should not remain constantly wide, while turning.
5. For Long Turns, I was taught to have my D/Hill arm track round with the D/Hill ski....which helps with a more Stacked position.
It will be interesting to see if I'm in any way correct with this analysis.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@tangowaggon, that's the least representative set of pictures I can imagine of your skiing. Did you pick them on purpose?
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
adithorp wrote:
@tangowaggon, that's the least representative set of pictures I can imagine of your skiing. Did you pick them on purpose?
Are you suggesting he's taking the wee wee?
Al
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Old Fartbag wrote:
If it's OK, I have a question, which is skiing related, rather than High Edge Angle related:
Years ago, I was taught to "Lead Change" (or "Switch" as the Americans called it), which then became totally obsolete and generally unhelpful, with modern technique and carving skis.....
You answered your own question (active tip lead no longer really a thing with carving skis).
However : if you think about making big angles then anatomically you the inside leg will need to be shorter (more flexed) than outside leg. So at end of turn the inside foot / ski tip will be further forward as that is only place it can physically go.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Quote:
However : if you think about making big angles then anatomically you the inside leg will need to be shorter (more flexed) than outside leg. So at end of turn the inside foot / ski tip will be further forward as that is only place it can physically go.
Err, no. The relative ski tip position is dependant on the angle of pelvis and hips. If they're at 90 degrees to the skis then the ski tips will be next to each other.
In practice we can use this to provide more stability through the turn, and in some situations, particularly off-piste, it can make a huge difference. Some people like to think of it as pulling the inside ski back, as previously mentioned, while others, myself included, feel it's more helpful to talk about pushing the outside ski round.
When telemarking this is the normal way of turning, of course, with a very much defined outside lead ski, and practicing that can help get the sensation that we can then (sometimes) apply to our alpine skiing as well.
Even there though, it's important to note that these things are not fixed - it's perfectly possible (and fun) to do telemark turns without changing the lead ski, or even to deliberately lead with the inside ski, just as alpine turns can be done with the hips facing downhill and the outside ski therefore behind the inside one as you describe or with the hips perpendicular to the line of the skis and the tips together. In theory one could rotate the hips even further than that, but I've never tried, nor can I see any situation in which it might be useful.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Haggis_Trap wrote:
Old Fartbag wrote:
If it's OK, I have a question, which is skiing related, rather than High Edge Angle related:
Years ago, I was taught to "Lead Change" (or "Switch" as the Americans called it), which then became totally obsolete and generally unhelpful, with modern technique and carving skis.....
You answered your own question (active tip lead no longer really a thing with carving skis).
My question specifically related to skiing Moguls when the legs are very close together. Both Video Clips explained why it is not necessary in "normal" skiing and both clips explained why it is helpful in Bumps. These are not Videos from yesteryear, but very current and from people who should know what they are talking about.
I asked the question, as I like to understand ie. whether this is a specific American technique; whether it is helpful "In Moguls" - and of course, in case I have got the wrong end of the stick.
Years ago, I was taught to "Lead Change" (or "Switch" as the Americans called it), which then became totally obsolete and generally unhelpful, with modern technique and carving skis.....
You answered your own question (active tip lead no longer really a thing with carving skis).
My question specifically related to skiing Moguls when the legs are very close together. Both Video Clips explained why it is not necessary in "normal" skiing and both clips explained why it is helpful in Bumps. These are not Videos from yesteryear, but very current and from people who should know what they are talking about.
I asked the question, as I like to understand ie. whether this is a specific American technique; whether it is helpful "In Moguls" - and of course, in case I have got the wrong end of the stick.
I've not come across the concept of "active lead change" for moguls on my BASI Level 3 courses (last one done 2020), nor am I convinced, from the video, that he really understands what he's talking about. The idea of actively trying to bring the outside ski further backwards and reduce the amount of weight supported on the inside ski goes very much against the grain of everything I thought I'd learned in recent years.
As I described in my previous post, the opposite - pushing the outside ski forward to get the tips more together - contrary to the video, is quite possible, and I have seen it used as a teaching technique on BASI courses and much earlier on off-piste instruction clinics. I find it really helps to get the skis closer together for both fast powder skiing and moguls, so I'm quite sceptical about what the video is trying to say.
esteban525 wrote:
@Old Fartbag
Lead change is not something you have to intentionally do. It happens naturally, and just a little. The modern technique is to pull the "new inside ski" back, at transition.
Ah good, I see it's not just me then.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Wed 20-04-22 12:41; edited 1 time in total
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Chaletbeauroc wrote:
...so I'm quite sceptical about what the video is trying to say.
I was too, especially when I saw the first Video.....then when I saw the Deb Armstrong Video (who I greatly respect), I started wondering if there was something in it.
That's really interesting. The bit that maybe could be clearer is around the term 'balance'. But I can't really help with phrasing it better, maybe someone with a Physics background? But "keeping always the balance over the outside ski during the turn" doesn't paint the correct mental picture for me. It would suggest that the Centre of Mass should be vertically above the outside ski which is the opposite of what you are trying to convey.
Skiing's difficult, Physics is difficult and English is difficult. Trying to combine all three is ambitious.
As for @Old Fartbag and his differences in US inside lead technique to European, yes, I've noticed it too, for all skiing, not just moguls.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Riccardo wrote:
As for @Old Fartbag and his differences in US inside lead technique to European, yes, I've noticed it too, for all skiing, not just moguls.
I'm glad I'm not going mad. D.A. herself talks about getting Lead Change for "Free"....so no need to exaggerate, but she isn't a specific Mogul Coach.
I had a VHS Tape from about '94 called Mogul Mastery by Nelson Carmichael (Olympic Bronze Medallist) - and he was very keen on "Switch" or Lead Change......maybe this is just a hangover from those days. Mogul skiing is the one discipline that imv hasn't changed that much over the years.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Wed 20-04-22 18:39; edited 1 time in total
After all it is free
After all it is free
Chaletbeauroc wrote:
Quote:
However : if you think about making big angles then anatomically you the inside leg will need to be shorter (more flexed) than outside leg. So at end of turn the inside foot / ski tip will be further forward as that is only place it can physically go.
Err, no. The relative ski tip position is dependant on the angle of pelvis and hips. If they're at 90 degrees to the skis then the ski tips will be next to each other.
.
Look at picture of ski racer (Marcel Hirscher) below. Inside leg is more flexed than outside leg : therefore foot anatomically has to slide forward to make space. Your explanation of hips / pelvis is simply describing the exact same thing from perspective of different body part.
Keeping hips at 90 degrees to skis for entire duration of turn leads to very square stance which can block other movements.
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@tangowaggon, Not bad for your 1st day on skis
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Old Fartbag wrote:
My question specifically related to skiing Moguls when the legs are very close together. Both Video Clips explained why it is not necessary in "normal" skiing and both clips explained why it is helpful in Bumps. These are not Videos from yesteryear,
Apology : just watched the DA video (from 4:53).
My take is that he is describing what BASI call rotational separation (between upper and lower body) in terms of what the feet are doing. With lots of rotational seperation them it's inevitable one tip will "lead".
Fwiw : i also really don't like his description (but can kind of see how it might work / promote the movements required)
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Reading through this I'm now somewhat confused. What is the more 'common' technique? Inside (uphill) ski infront or behind outside (downhill) ski? or does it not make much difference?
I don't think this is something I've ever considered but for me the inside ski is always slightly behind the outside.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
NBH wrote:
Reading through this I'm now somewhat confused. What is the more 'common' technique? Inside (uphill) ski infront or behind outside (downhill) ski?
I don't think this is something I've ever considered but for me the inside ski is always slightly behind the outside.
In the old days (2m long straight skis) actively promoting inside tip lead with shuffle of feet at transition was encouraged. With modern carving skis and techniques it's no longer a thing. However that is not to say ski tips remain square (in reality inner & outer ski will lead at different phases on each turn)
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Wed 20-04-22 19:59; edited 1 time in total
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Haggis_Trap wrote:
Apology : just watched the DA video (from 4:53).
My take is that he is describing what BASI call rotational separation (between upper and lower body) in terms of what the feet are doing. With lots rotational seperation them it's inevitable one tip will "lead".
Fwiw : i also really don't like his description (but can kind of see how it might work / promote the movements required)
I think that in America, when it comes to the very specific discipline of Mogul Skiing at the top level, they teach slightly exaggerating Lead Change - which they say is to compensate for having the skis so close together.
In the DA video, the Coach is very specific, when he says that this should be achieved by pulling back the Outside ski on each turn. This is the opposite of pulling back the New Inside Ski at the start of the turn, which minimises Tip Lead.
I'm only interested, as I have a geeky fascination with the different approaches of different countries. America hardly has a shabby record in Mogul Skiing....but strongly suspect that this has little place outside of competition Mogul skiing.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@Haggis_Trap, thanks!
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
NBH wrote:
Reading through this I'm now somewhat confused. What is the more 'common' technique? Inside (uphill) ski infront or behind outside (downhill) ski? or does it not make much difference?
I don't think this is something I've ever considered but for me the inside ski is always slightly behind the outside.
In normal skiing, the U/Hill ski will naturally be a little bit ahead, without you having to do anything. The thing to avoid, is having it exaggerated. These Videos might help explain.
In normal skiing, the U/Hill ski will naturally be a little bit ahead, without you having to do anything.
This exactly : Though it's worth noting that immediately after transition the old inside ski (which was leading at end of turn) becomes the new outside ski. i.e ski which leads changes during phase of each turn
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Wed 20-04-22 20:29; edited 1 time in total
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Haggis_Trap wrote:
Old Fartbag wrote:
In normal skiing, the U/Hill ski will naturally be a little bit ahead, without you having to do anything.
This exactly : Though it's worth noting that immediately after transition the old inside ski (which was leading at end of turn) becomes the new outside ski.
This confusion is all my fault, for raising it in the first place.
IME. Even back in the day, it wasn't universally taught. I think it was country specific.
It has always amused (and confused) me, that what was taught in one country, was seen as the Devil's Work in another.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@tangowaggon, from what I see in those pics the majority of your weight is on the inside ski, rather than the outside, leading to the skidding. Pic 2 your outside ski seems almost off the snow when it should have 90%ish of the weight on it!
Are you all new round here? Beware the "Inner Tip Lead" trap of yesteryear. Nearly 30 pages of arguments, flounces and sheer bloodymindedness! I give you the (im)famous Getting Rid of Excessive Inner Ski Tip Lead thread
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
maggi wrote:
Are you all new round here? Beware the "Inner Tip Lead" trap of yesteryear. Nearly 30 pages of arguments, flounces and sheer bloodymindedness! I give you the (im)famous Getting Rid of Excessive Inner Ski Tip Lead thread
Blimey!
A read of that thread would have you take up Snowboarding.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@tangowaggon,
I'd agree with some other comments that you are banking meaning your shoulders are too far inside the turn and too much weight is on the inside ski.
I think you need to focus on more upper body / lower body separation - your shoulders rotated a little outside the turn and your oblique core muscles on the outer side of your body contracting to create that "c" shape.
I'm not an instructor so I'm afraid I am focused on outcomes rather than drills to get you there. Which is why I don't tend to comment on these threads! SOrry
EDIT - just realised that Esteban's article offers some tips and drills on the upper/lower body separation issue!
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Fri 22-04-22 18:04; edited 1 time in total
After all it is free
After all it is free
@esteban525,
great article - really good round up
Props also for the credit to Ultimate Skiing!
I was aware of everything you wrote about but only really appreciated the concept of controlling the turn with shortening the inner leg this season thanks to video @Old Fartbag posted earlier this season!
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