Good steered turns vs. good carved turns - which is harder?
I've been introduced to both, lately I've been working hard on the former and am now probably doing these better than the latter. However, I've realised that a good steered turn takes some achieving. This surprised me - carved turns are so often what you hear folks talking about that, as a learner, these are what I had always aspired to. However, these steered turns are surprisingly complex things to achieve - they also feel good when you hit one right They seem to me as much of a challenge as a carved turn. So I thought as a bit of fun it might make a thread.
Which do you think is harder to do and if you fancy extending the notion which do you consider is the most useful?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
It depends on the context. Carving on a red piste is not easy, but on a gentle track is pretty straightforward. I find a skilfully steered (with a smooth rate of rotation) turn on very gentle terrain to be quite tricky if you are aiming for a very high level of precision, but on steeper terrain it's pretty straightforward. As with most questions about skiing the answer is often "it depends".
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Sorry to sound like a complete newbie, but what exactly is meant by a 'steered turn'?
Handy Turnip, I think a written description might need an instructor - I know practically what I am calling a steered turn, but I think it needs explaining properly. In fact I have checked the Glossary of skiing terms at the top of BZK and it isn't a definition we currently have.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Handy Turnip, when the turn has a dominant element of rotation (twisting the ski rather than only edging it). Most turns have at least some rotational steering, other than cleanly carved turns.
rob@rar, cheers for the description. I was at Hemel today and was thinking my turns are a bit skiddy, and I was watching a girl skiing who (while not carving) seemed much smoother. I'm guessing she was doing a decent steered turn.
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I guess there are situations where a steered turn might be trickier, but in general a carved turn is harder. If I could carve down everything I would, but I can't so have to resort to skidding.
After all it is free
After all it is free
jimmer, Although I am only learning them, I think, to finally achieve them, a steered turn requires more effort and is probably more tiring than a carved turn from those I have managed so far.
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Megamum, I guess that brings up the difference between harder technically, and harder physically, but generally a carved turn is more difficult physically (for clarity's sake lets say a carved turned on a steep run rather than a railroad track on a green) as well, as the forces involved are much greater.
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jimmer, but would those same forces not also affect the ease or difficulty with which a steered turn could also be done on the same steep slope. I can now make my foot turn the ski around when doing the steered turn , and even on an easy pitch it requires more effort than trying to tip the skis onto their edges and carving (which I can sometimes get almost right). Wouldn't the ease of both types diminish as the slope got steeper? Incidentally I have decided that carved turns are far more condition dependant - they seem the preserve of a fairly level snow surface, the moment it gets churned up any other method of turning seems easier.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Centripetal force increases relative to the edge angle and speed of travel, so carved turns have more force than skidded. Sorry for briefness, need to go ski!
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
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rob@rar, jimmer, ok, got that, but do those forces exert such great force that it would make a carved turn significantly harder than a steered one? jimmer, enjoy your ski!
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Megamum, yes. With high speeds and high forces things get considerably more complex. Very few skiers carve clean turns on anything steeper than a modest blue, and the majority of skiers don't carve their turns at any time.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Rrob@rar, then these steered turns sound a very important thing to get properly nailed. If this the case and, as you say, very few skiers use them, then why is so much fuss made about carved turns, when a steered turn sounds a more useful skill to have?
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Megamum wrote:
then why is so much fuss made about carved turns,
Who knows? I have no idea.
Megamum wrote:
when a steered turn sounds a more useful skill to have?
I don't think one or other is more useful. I don't think one type of turn is better than the other. They are just different ways to slide down a slope. A good skier will be able to vary their skiing from a completely carved turn to a completely steered turn, and all points in between, matching their technique to the terrain they are on and how they want to ski it.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I don't think anyone has said that skidded turn was unnessecary, just that skidded turns are easier, and a lower level skill than carving.
Going back to the amount of force used, some racers get up to 4gs in their turns, which obviously requires much more muscular strength than skidding.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Steered turns are way harder on knees That's why I carve my turns whenever that is possible.
and even on an easy pitch it requires more effort than trying to tip the skis onto their edges and carving
but surely a "steered turn" doesn't mean forcing a flat ski round? Every turn where the ski is tipped on edge isn't a carved turn, is it? My skis are tipped on edge, to some extent, through all turns when just normally skiing around but (sadly) very few of those turns are fully carved. I skied a bit on Saturday on some nice freshly groomed and quiet slopes where even on an easy blue I wasn't managing to leave two nice tracks through the whole turn.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
pam w, even in a very steered turn, braquage drill for example, the skis are on their edges. A ski which is completely flat wants to go in a straight line and doesn't give you any control of speed or direction.
One of these days I am going to need to book a lesson to find out what all the different actions in skiing are called, I have never heard of 'braquage drill'. Its all very interesting.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
CaravanSkier, It's worth a look at the glossary at the top of BZK - it's a resource that SH compiled several years ago and I've not come across similar on other sites - it is full of useful info and definitions.
After all it is free
After all it is free
CaravanSkier,
It doesn't cost much at all to buy a book on skiing. For as little as 10 to 15£ and a little time reading/ analysing pictures, you would know a lot AND probably get more out of any instruction taken because ( i hope) you would understand the purpose / reason for the exercise/ drill your instructor/coach is asking of you.
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CaravanSkier wrote:
One of these days I am going to need to book a lesson to find out what all the different actions in skiing are called, I have never heard of 'braquage drill'. Its all very interesting.
AKA pivot slips - practice first on a nice groomed piste
If this the case and, as you say, very few skiers use them, then why is so much fuss made about carved turns,
Very few skiers use them as they are a hard skill to master. The fuss is for many reasons, probably because they are hard so are seen as an "expert skill" and thus are something to aspire to, it's what racers are attempting to do as it's the fastest way down a course (the course itself often doesn't allow a fully clean carved turn hence "attempting") but for me, they just feel brilliant. A lot of turn shapes feel as though you are "forcing" the ski, carving feels as though you are making the ski do exactly as it was designed to do.
I could happily spend all day on a pair of 165 SL skis carving down Mephisto ( a mellow red below the eggs lift in Flaine) it feels so good, driving them round, the feel of potential energy in the ski when bent, the "pop" as you release the pressure to change edges and draw your knees up. It also looks pretty flair!
(Caveat - Since quitting being a ski bum and becoming a desk jockey, my thighs have withered and I can only manage a decent half day's carving down blue runs and the mellow bits of reds until my puny office monkey legs give out. I'm no longer the skier I am in my head but I can still talk the talk..........)
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Just spent a bit of time looking through the glossary, interesting. Thank you to its author.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
CaravanSkier, it was a joint effort from quite a large number of SH's, I think it was skimottaret who put the effort into the final thread write up, but I think it is a unique resource and quite often overlooked at the top of the BZK forum which is why I mentioned it.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
This conversation needs to include some stivoting and scraving
Check this video out, first half is carving, second half stivots (skidding, steering and then somehow engaging the edges to carve - a great blend of skills.)
I think scarving refers to letting the ski slide out in powder to wipe off some speed, but struggle to find a definitive definition.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
waynos, what an unusual thing - you can see that the skier is quite deliberately skidding the skis to begin with - I think it would be easily missed without that slow mo footage. I think I'll stick to what I know I can do though .
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Megamum wrote:
waynos, what an unusual thing
Fairly standard technique in modern ski racing, but no need for it outside of skiing gates other than for the sheer hell of it! Was leading some synchro skiing in Meribel a couple of weeks ago and threw in a few for fun. It's just mixing up the steering mechanisms in a single turn, with a pronounced change in the blend at some point around the curve.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I'd say carving is just damn fast, and that's why it's considered impressive. I don't think the majority of skiers can do it though - I wouldn't even go so far as to say I can 100% do it without having a professional tell me first. As far as I can tell though (and certainly what I consider to be carving), is a fast turn on the edges of both skis where it feels like you are literally on rails with no skidding from the skis at all, and hence no braking - had great fun in Val Thorens last week as the pistes (especially the reds) were very hard snow and you could literally hear/feel when you were carving properly as the edges stopped scraping across the snow when you hit the carve right.
Someone please berate me most heinously if I'm wrong though.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
waynos, you're thinking of slarving in soft snow. It's very similar to the stivot really. It's not just for slowing down as you can maintain a pretty good pace if you don't show the whole base to the oncoming snow. It's what people mean when they talk about the surfy feeling of fatter, rockered skis. Great when it's really steep and good snow in comparison to cambered skis.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Love the vid with the 'stivot' turns, looks like the skiing equivalent of Marc Marquez…
I'd say carving is just damn fast, and that's why it's considered impressive. I don't think the majority of skiers can do it though - I wouldn't even go so far as to say I can 100% do it without having a professional tell me first. As far as I can tell though (and certainly what I consider to be carving), is a fast turn on the edges of both skis where it feels like you are literally on rails with no skidding from the skis at all, and hence no braking - had great fun in Val Thorens last week as the pistes (especially the reds) were very hard snow and you could literally hear/feel when you were carving properly as the edges stopped scraping across the snow when you hit the carve right.
Someone please berate me most heinously if I'm wrong though.
You can control your speed with carving through turn shape, but yes, it is typically faster than a skidded turn.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
queen bodecia wrote:
Love the vid with the 'stivot' turns, looks like the skiing equivalent of Marc Marquez…
I just can't get my head round this thread.... Steered turns is new terminology to me, never heard of them before. To me, Steered turns translate as skidding. The video demonstrating this looks, to me, as a guy just slide slipping in between flips. The videos of the racers look, again to me, as guys realising that to continue carving at that speed will result in them crashing out. They appear to be holding on by the seat of their pants rather than deliberately laying down a steered turn. In my mind when their edges are bouncing off the surface and they are trying to point into the fall line anyway they can. Is this the point? Is a steered turn just an accident prevention turn?
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
dode, Continuing to carve would mean that they would miss the gate. There is a limit to how small you can make a carved turn so you have to do something to get the skis ready to engage edges again in the correct line.
After all it is free
After all it is free
That's my point.
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dode wrote:
That's my point.
Not really. Read all the posts
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If continuing to carve would mean missing the gate, then surely a steered turn is accident (missing the gate) prevention? Am I wrong?
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
They seem to me as much of a challenge as a carved turn. So I thought as a bit of fun it might make a thread.
That's why I carve my turns whenever that is possible.
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