By far the biggest change was carved turns. For my first trip in January I relied solely on skidded turns and never got to try carving. I did a few visits to Milton Keynes in between to work on them (I did a thread on this a few weeks ago) but it properly clicked last week on the wider slopes. My speeds went up from 40's to 60's (km/h) and I once got low enough to inadvertently touch my hand on the floor.
The other big change was going down blacks. I ruled this out in January, but this time did all the blacks, some of which were up to 70% but it seemed like my technique was robust enough to handle them well and enjoy them.
I enjoy going all out on the last day. In January I managed 7.5km vertical but this time upped it to 14km, needless to say the knees were a little sore the next day!
The short turns remained a big challenge, I wasn't entirely sure what I was doing or supposed to be doing on those.
For reference I'm 180cm/65kg and I started day 1 on 168cm ski's. I found these too difficult in the slushy bumps, couldn't turn the damn things. Then changed to 156cm and it was a lot better, gave me more confidence. For the last 3 days went up to 162cm which gave me stability at the higher speeds. Perhaps nudge them up next time? This time round I also had fitted boots (Atomic Hawx Ultra 100) as opposed to rentals which felt nice.
I suppose the question is, what next? There won't be any skiing until next season now. And whilst I'm happy with the progress I'm also fearful that a plateau is coming along with a possible decline in the interim. Anything I can do in the interim? What would be good challenges/goals for the third ski week?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Some good skills there, adaptable balance for different situations, accomplished for early skill set.
Positive critique (warning I'm not an instructor) more willing turning left than right (first clip certainly) need less focus on the absolute numbers, altitude/piste colour etc, concentrate on finishing the turns and letting the ski run naturally toward it's radius (patience is needed) to let yourself feel the ski travel through fall line (straight down) into it's natural arc (building the turning force) and seeing the speed come off the ski naturally as it slows more when the energy from the acceleration part of the turn tails off.
You're not seeing the end of the turn in most of the gradient, and so not using the ski edge throughout it's inbuilt geometry, watch yourself as the turn starts to build and bring more shape to it, then you can see yourself almost flicking it to go the other way.
Old time ski instructor told me "to make beautiful turns, first you must learn to finish your turns" it brings about a technique that uses les energy (sore knees) and lets you make the very most of the ski's design in helping you.
I think you've done very well though, slower and more deliberate to form the turns should pay dividends.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
IANAI either. Really good for 2 weeks. I suspect the reason you find long turn "carving" easier is that you are quite athletic and learn with quite a lot of mimicry hence you are mirroring what you see racers do and slamming the edges over with a fair amount of body separation. If you break it down you are doing topple into high edge angle, ride out then a late topple into next turn. That is way more than most learners are doing at your stage.
Your challenge is to get more progressive with early edging and perhaps less dramatic which should allow you to experiment more with the feel of the skis. It's good to mix up turn radius within a single run - go tight to wide and back down to tight for instance or set yourself targets like doing legs only or inside knee focus only. Blacks as in groomers are utterly pointless for most people in terms of development - they are too often a matter of survival and not a platform for anything other than building exposure tolerance for other terrain or rockstar edging skills for the 0.1%.
Thanks for the feedback, that's really encouraging! I'm right footed so that would explain the willingness to go left.
I'm a numbers geek, so really enjoy looking at the GPS tracker, gradients and feasting on all the stats! I appreciate that's a nightmare for some people but it really motivates me.
Interesting point you make on finishing the turns. I've always thought being able to change quickly into the other turn is a precious skill to be acquired.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
IANAI either. Really good for 2 weeks. I suspect the reason you find long turn "carving" easier is that you are quite athletic and learn with quite a lot of mimicry hence you are mirroring what you see racers do and slamming the edges over with a fair amount of body separation. If you break it down you are doing topple into high edge angle, ride out then a late topple into next turn. That is way more than most learners are doing at your stage.
Your challenge is to get more progressive with early edging and perhaps less dramatic which should allow you to experiment more with the feel of the skis. It's good to mix up turn radius within a single run - go tight to wide and back down to tight for instance or set yourself targets like doing legs only or inside knee focus only. Blacks as in groomers are utterly pointless for most people in terms of development - they are too often a matter of survival and not a platform for anything other than building exposure tolerance for other terrain or rockstar edging skills for the 0.1%.
You've read the situation very well. I've watched stacks of YouTube video's and learned from that. Whenever I saw someone in "race mode" on the slopes I'd observe them very closely. The carving style of skiing really appeals to me because I've got a sporty/athletic background and love the aggressive, faster feel that it brings.
There were some racers who were practicing on the slalom, I would've absolutely loved to have had a go but it was closed off! Not sure if these sort of experiences are possible for the once/twice a year Brits.
it looks/ sounds like you're heading into an "expert beginner" trap.
If you want to learn to ski, find a mellow slope and practice basic technique on it at slow speed.
Preferably with someone who can help you with drills and point out what you're doing wrong.
Two weeks a year is usually not enough for people to progress - imagine trying to learn to play the piano with just two weeks practice a year!
Lots of UK people practice indoors and on dry slopes for that reason.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
philwig wrote:
it looks/ sounds like you're heading into an "expert beginner" trap.
If you want to learn to ski, find a mellow slope and practice basic technique on it at slow speed.
Preferably with someone who can help you with drills and point out what you're doing wrong.
Two weeks a year is usually not enough for people to progress - imagine trying to learn to play the piano with just two weeks practice a year!
Lots of UK people practice indoors and on dry slopes for that reason.
That's a fair point about being expert beginner. I know there's a part of me that thinks because I can go faster and do some blacks, I've got it dialed down .
Milton Keynes is my nearest so I could consider going there regularly. What sort of things could I work on there that would be the right challenge for me? It's not immediately obvious to me the types of drills that would work. I'm sure someone will say get lessons. I previously did at MK, and they were awful!
After all it is free
After all it is free
Lots of stuff you can work on indoors. If you could make it to Hemel you could do worse than a couple of sessions with InsideOut who will do days on a theme and give you plenty to go away and work on.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
@viciousvulture, (IANAI) It looks (to the extent that videos can look) that you've done a nice job of picking up the basics, but being able to scramble down a steep run is not the same as being able to ski it with grace and fluidity (I know, you know that).
Lessons at MK, more lessons at MK, etc., rinse and repeat. More skiing, more lessons.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
Lots of stuff you can work on indoors. If you could make it to Hemel you could do worse than a couple of sessions with InsideOut who will do days on a theme and give you plenty to go away and work on.
Thanks for that. I'm actually same distance to Hemel as I am to MK although for some reason always been to MK. This insideout looks interesting, though. The lesson I had at MK was just cookie cutter, the guy couldn't even be bothered to ski with us and zero enthusiasm. If these guys come recommended then I'd consider it.
I once showed some of my best photographs to a Transworld Snowboarding photo editor. I was very proud of them: everyone I'd shown them to had loved them all. He pointed out that none of them were sharp. He sounded harsh, but I took it in the spirit it was given, because when I looked, I could see what he meant. He was kinder than all those other people who'd been "polite" - his advice was what made me improve. That's my excuse...
If you compare your technique with that of their "level 7" people, you should easily be able to see where your technique is fundamentally different.
The "level 7" video shows people turning with relatively small skier movements, with the skis doing most of the turning themselves (it's how they're designed). Contrast that with how you're doing it for example at 1:51. There you do a little stem, then violently crank the skis around at high speed. That changes your direction, but it's not how the skiers in the Inside Out videos turn. If you look back through the those "inside out" videos, you'll see that none of them show people turning like that, because that's not how you ski. You're no longer snow ploughing, but what you've learned isn't the path those people are all on. And only one of those two paths gets you to being able to ski.
Once you can see the difference, it's a matter of working out how to get from one approach to the other.
The Inside Out people probably have a set of drills they've found are effective, or perhaps you can work it out.
But that's the challenge: (1) analyze what you're doing until you understand where your technique is incorrect; (2) practice the correct technique
Someone will say "ah, but there's no 'right way', and that it's all fun even when it's poor technique".
That's all true, but not helpful if you want to progress.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@viciousvulture, going against the grain here. You don't need more lessons (not loads/constanly at least) but more mileage.
Two weeks a season isn't bad - especially if you max out, 7/8 full days. If you can squeeze any more in even better.
Based on the vid - work on your had position/pole plant and being dynamic with the legs whilst keep the body/shoulders facing down the slope/fall line. Go on slopes that challenge you and if/when you lose it a bit go back to something easier and re-establish the basics.
I am not instructor it's my personal opinion after 30 years skiing and reading/watching what you posted.
Most people (me included) find drilling stuff a bit tiresome so I don't go out to do so much. But I do occasionally and I certainly try things technique wise and think about things technique wise. These days there are loads of ideas on youtube.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Taking into account what @philwig has said you're probably a solid 6 with the chance of being a 7 if you slow things down. It doesn't really matter though because numbers are just a rough positionizer and you won't learn any less by a realistic reflection on what you can and can't do - I'd think smooth and flow at the slowest possible speed rather than what you can do chucking things on edge with a fair amount of starting speed.. Because you're a quick learner and relatively fearless you have the potential to be a really quite decent skier relatively quickly but think of it in terms of being a versatile all mountain skier in 2-3 years and investing some "boring" development time to get there. Otherwise you can be a blue run hero all your life and never quite get it.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@viciousvulture, nice to see the progression, well done .
With all the caveats (I'm not an instructor etc), what you say about liking speed, watching racers etc is easy to see in your skiing.
It's interesting that you say,
Quote:
The short turns remained a big challenge, I wasn't entirely sure what I was doing or supposed to be doing on those.
I think this is where a good instructor (not necessarily the bored instructor at MK - try to get individual recommendations) will help. To do good short turns will require a very different focus to carving and it'll be a lot quicker for you if someone (more expert than me) gets you started on this.
My other comment would be to look at your short turns, and compare where/how you start your movements vs the Inside Out level 6 and 7 videos.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@viciousvulture, firstly, well done for just 2 weeks, you're doing well.
As you're practising the falling leaf drill anyway, here's a good video from Deb Armstrong on just that:
For me, i'd say this would be a good one to work on. Pay attention to her upper body in comparison to yours. Your upper body twists with/to start the movement, hers is all legs.
Another drill that will have a similar effect is braquage, and this might be slightly easier initially than the falling leaf drill:
I'd also look at practising holding your poles out in front of you, like a tray, and keeping the chest arms and poles down the hill, even throughout the turn. Wouldn't expect a full almost 90 degree separation between upper and lower body, but maybe look for around the 45 degrees difference between where the skis are pointing and where your upper body is facing.
The big big key though, is purely time on skis, you'll get better and better the more you practise, on the button lifts up the side of Hemel/MK pay attention to the skiers that are good (the ones that are actually good, not the ones that think they're good) and try and pick up some of the shapes and movements they create, and see if you can emulate that.
@viciousvulture, going against the grain here. You don't need more lessons (not loads/constanly at least) but more mileage.
Two weeks a season isn't bad - especially if you max out, 7/8 full days. If you can squeeze any more in even better.
Based on the vid - work on your had position/pole plant and being dynamic with the legs whilst keep the body/shoulders facing down the slope/fall line. Go on slopes that challenge you and if/when you lose it a bit go back to something easier and re-establish the basics.
I am not instructor it's my personal opinion after 30 years skiing and reading/watching what you posted.
Most people (me included) find drilling stuff a bit tiresome so I don't go out to do so much. But I do occasionally and I certainly try things technique wise and think about things technique wise. These days there are loads of ideas on youtube.
I'd agree with this actually. Having a sporty background I have a tendency to pick things up as I go. The progress thus far has been self coached and I have a reasonable idea of improvement points (definitely better separation for the short turns which has been picked up by others).
Again, I'd echo what you say on the drilling, it can get a bit boring! It takes a strong presence of mind to stick it out on the nursery slopes for hours when you've shelled out £'000's for you ski holiday.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
swskier wrote:
@viciousvulture, firstly, well done for just 2 weeks, you're doing well.
As you're practising the falling leaf drill anyway, here's a good video from Deb Armstrong on just that:
For me, i'd say this would be a good one to work on. Pay attention to her upper body in comparison to yours. Your upper body twists with/to start the movement, hers is all legs.
Another drill that will have a similar effect is braquage, and this might be slightly easier initially than the falling leaf drill:
I'd also look at practising holding your poles out in front of you, like a tray, and keeping the chest arms and poles down the hill, even throughout the turn. Wouldn't expect a full almost 90 degree separation between upper and lower body, but maybe look for around the 45 degrees difference between where the skis are pointing and where your upper body is facing.
The big big key though, is purely time on skis, you'll get better and better the more you practise, on the button lifts up the side of Hemel/MK pay attention to the skiers that are good (the ones that are actually good, not the ones that think they're good) and try and pick up some of the shapes and movements they create, and see if you can emulate that.
That's where I discovered the falling leaf. Deb's a brilliant teacher! So much enthusiasm, would be great to be taught by her.
I must've got confused with her whirlybird video (360's) where she said not to get too caught up in the upper body facing the wrong way. Hence why I just let my upper body be relaxed and loose. I think I should be able to tighten that up next time around though.
Which is how I learned to inline skate (being a skier, it was pretty easy).
Except it wasn't. I thought I'd do a bit of enhancement and had a course of lessons. First thing the instructors said?
"You're a skier, aren't you? I'm afraid your turns are completely wrong"
Ooops.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
philwig wrote:
I once showed some of my best photographs to a Transworld Snowboarding photo editor. I was very proud of them: everyone I'd shown them to had loved them all. He pointed out that none of them were sharp. He sounded harsh, but I took it in the spirit it was given, because when I looked, I could see what he meant. He was kinder than all those other people who'd been "polite" - his advice was what made me improve. That's my excuse...
If you compare your technique with that of their "level 7" people, you should easily be able to see where your technique is fundamentally different.
The "level 7" video shows people turning with relatively small skier movements, with the skis doing most of the turning themselves (it's how they're designed). Contrast that with how you're doing it for example at 1:51. There you do a little stem, then violently crank the skis around at high speed. That changes your direction, but it's not how the skiers in the Inside Out videos turn. If you look back through the those "inside out" videos, you'll see that none of them show people turning like that, because that's not how you ski. You're no longer snow ploughing, but what you've learned isn't the path those people are all on. And only one of those two paths gets you to being able to ski.
Once you can see the difference, it's a matter of working out how to get from one approach to the other.
The Inside Out people probably have a set of drills they've found are effective, or perhaps you can work it out.
But that's the challenge: (1) analyze what you're doing until you understand where your technique is incorrect; (2) practice the correct technique
Someone will say "ah, but there's no 'right way', and that it's all fun even when it's poor technique".
That's all true, but not helpful if you want to progress.
Thanks for the feedback. I suppose I was looking more from a carving perspective, I know my shorter turns need more improvement. Although I'd say in the level 7 video there wasn't so many doing as short a turn, as I'd shown at 1:51. I'd hope my medium turns weren't so jerky.
I think your last point is the main takeaway in all this. It's the fun vs correct debate and how much does one want to improve (at the detriment to their short term fun). I enjoyed my second week even more than my first because I felt really comfortable on anything pisted. Perhaps I should try off piste as motivation for improvements?
Yes - more mileage is absolutely necessary - but more mileage on poor/under-developed technique (which is, probably, all you can reasonably have after two weeks) is just more and more reinforcement of bad habits.
Looking again, to my jaded eye you are a very good example of how easy modern, shaped skis are to turn.
What I mean is, downhill skis have +/- always had sidecuts (concave curved sides) - so putting them on edge and pressuring them so that they go into (conventionally described as) reverse camber, (but a modern rockered ski is mostly or completely there already with no pressure) they naturally turn - following the sidecut (modified by camber/torsion). Old skool tended to be skidded with some degree of carving input, modern skis tend to +/- carve.
Just doing this is sometimes known as "parking and riding". It's not very advanced and not generally adequately capable of dealing with much other than a perfectly smooth slope.
So some things that (I think) you will need to acquire (and which I feel are best and quickest acquired by some instruction whether daily groups or staggered privates a question +/- of personal choice) would include control and variation of edge angles and pressures - and practical things/tools like side slipping, climbing up hills (!), and (I kno, I kno, I will be called out) appropriate use of snowploughs (honest, dead handy and note how often actual instructors use it on e.g. approach to lifts).
But to my mind, an appropriate leavening of practice with instruction is necessary.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
under a new name wrote:
practical things/tools like side slipping, climbing up hills (!)
Big fan of the side slip. It's my got to when I want to switch off and be lazy.
There was actually a 50m hill/gentle slope that we took twice to get back. First time, ski's off. Second time I kept the ski's on, I really enjoyed the challenge.
Skating on the flats is another great skill. Every opportunity I had on the first week I tried this, but just couldn't quite get the coordination/timing. But pleased to say I was able to do it much better last week, felt great gliding past everyone!
After all it is free
After all it is free
@viciousvulture, good!
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Normally, I would go through the above footage, with stop/start, to try and give an amateur diagnosis....but I am going with a different approach this time.
Like others, I think you are doing remarkably well, for all the time you have been on skis.....but I think you are at a crossroads. By that I mean, you are at the point where you can make sure are working on good form; or you can ingrain bad habits, that will be hard to shake.
You are certainly athletic enough to get by on natural talent without many lessons - enabling you to get about the mountain.....but will likely join the ranks of those stuck on the Intermediate Plateau. I like the phrase "Expert Beginner Trap" used by Philwig.
IME. You need lots of mileage; You need a selection of well targeted drills.....But you also need the input/diagnosis/guidance of a good ski instructor, to keep you on the right path. Mistakes and bad habits creep into everybody's skiing and get ingrained if not highlighted, worked on and corrected.
In a week, this is probably a min of 2 lessons. In a 2 week holiday, 3 lessons. Generally, you need a day to get your "ski legs"; then a lesson; then a day or two to work on what you've you've learned; then another lesson to see how things are going and work on something else.
I am not so pessimistic about the ability to get to a decent standard on 2 weeks per year. You have the ability and determination to improve....and are doing all the right things. You are unlikely to become a true "God Like" expert on all terrain....but it's quite possible to get to the point where you can ski in control on most Pistes, with Long/Short turns (using carved or skidded turns); can come quietly down a mogul field and make turns Off Piste.
As a Holiday Skier, the above is a reasonable goal....but my message is to keep the oversight of an Instructor to prevent taking the wrong turn.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
I finally learned to carve this year after decades of not knowing it was even a thing. Now I am obsessed with it.
My thoughts:
1. For a two weeks skier you are really really good. Loads of potential.
2. No idea if it’s possible or not for you but really the best way of all to take your skiing to a new level is to go on a season instructor course. You are already almost at the level at which you could do a basic instructor course. I did that this season and it has utterly revolutionised my skiing. Carving, short turns, the lot.
3. As others have said, AVOID steep slopes. Generally a complete waste of time for improving technique (except maybe side slipping). Aim for blues and mellow reds. You will learn heaps more and way more fun. (i’m not talking about off piste here which is a different game)
4. Carving drills that have really helped my skiing: (Some of these will be too advanced for you). Mostly about balance …
* On GENTLE blue, practice just making railroad tracks with slight tipping of ankles. It feels amazing. You can do it on tracks paths and pretty much all the terrain that is ignored by non-carvers.
* Never waste terrain. I see far too many intermediates just mindlessly drifting along paths and tracks and easy blues When they are a brilliant place to carve and dance.
* Work on using your inside ski outside edge (Little Toe Edge - LTE). When I first started carving I had no idea what to do with my inside ski so I would just let it flap around.
* But it’s actually really important as you can use it to initiate carved turns and match edge angles.
* Great drills for this are one ski skiing, skiing outside edge to outside edge (which is basically one ski skiing flipping between legs), white pass turns (aka Norwegian turns or inside our turns), roller blade turns
* Getting comfortable with using your little toe edge on the inside ski feels really really weird and strange at first but after a while it gets entirely comfortable and makes a big difference to the quality of carved turns.
There’s loads of other stuff but this is good for starters.
Three final thoughts
* GENTLE terrain
* USE every bit of terrain. No mindless gliding. Paths, tracks …use it all
* sure skiing is a sport but it’s also a lot about looking and feeling beautiful - sort of like dancing. Never forget that. Carving especially.
Enjoy !
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@Davidgdg, Good post....especially highlighting the use of the inside ski (which can make or break your efforts).
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
old fart bag wrote:
am not so pessimistic about the ability to get to a decent standard on 2 weeks per year.
You may be right, it's quite hard to be sure. And then what people think is "decent" varies.
To me, the inside-out "level 10" looks like a level which is reasonably ok on piste.
I wonder how many 2 week sessions people take to reach that standard on average?
My guess would be that you need about 100 days.
So 7 years of those 2 weeks, assuming you progress only in the forward direction ability-wise.
How many people here have been skiing 7 years of 2 weeks a year and can post a video looking like the inside out one?
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Old Fartbag wrote:
@Davidgdg, Good post....especially highlighting the use of the inside ski (which can make or break your efforts).
Thank you ️
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Davidgdg wrote:
Old Fartbag wrote:
@Davidgdg, Good post....especially highlighting the use of the inside ski (which can make or break your efforts).
Thank you ️
Very good tips, thanks!
Unfortunately the holiday had mostly ended when I realised about the inside leg. A bit of A framing going on I reckon, and I could see my tracks weren't quite equidistant throughout the turn. I'll try thinking more about LTE and tucking that lower leg in a bit more, whilst maintaining as much pressure on the outside. Presumably more aggressive angulation is needed.
I enjoyed never wasting terrain, always try and find something to do. It's nice to leave clean tracks on the shallow parts, although not so easy.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Let's be clear I wasn't suggesting that @viciousvulture, had no instruction/coaching just that I don't think "lessons and more lessons" are necessary.
And actually I didn't realise until later in the thread that @viciousvulture had entirely "self coached" thus far. I certainly wouldn't advocate that.
If you spent a couple of hours privately with a good coach/instructor early on your next trip they would make sure you hadn't developed any bad habits (which at this stage wouldn't be ingrained) and give you the priority things to work on. That could be good for 2/3/4 trips depending on your ability to self coach it in. Some people may need or choose to do much more or more regular coaching. Once you've got a lot of the good stuff fairly well engrained, it then become a question of where you want to go with your skiing and/or your mindset.
Another factor is who you are skiing with - if skiing with some one more experienced and knowledgeable they can really help you.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Man you’ve picked up more in two weeks than I managed in two decades. You’ll be fine !!
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Davidgdg wrote:
Man you’ve picked up more in two weeks than I managed in two decades. You’ll be fine !!
Thanks! Although I'm sure I've spent about two weeks on YouTube as well
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Just one more thought. I have found that practice of active edging (of which carving is the edge case – pun intended) is so much easier and more fun when the slopes are empty and the snow is soft. Carving necessarily involves higher speeds and using more of the slope and and so is way more relaxed when there are few or any other people around So I’d really recommend that for your next trip you think about a smaller resort in the spring (2nd half March ideal or even early April). I’ve recently been skiing the Aosta Valley resorts (places like Pila, Champoluc, la Thuile, val tournanche etc) and I have found them to be way better for practising edging carving than my base resort of Verbier where the slopes tend to be too steep and too crowded.
am not so pessimistic about the ability to get to a decent standard on 2 weeks per year.
You may be right, it's quite hard to be sure. And then what people think is "decent" varies.
To me, the inside-out "level 10" looks like a level which is reasonably ok on piste.
I wonder how many 2 week sessions people take to reach that standard on average?
My guess would be that you need about 100 days.
So 7 years of those 2 weeks, assuming you progress only in the forward direction ability-wise.
How many people here have been skiing 7 years of 2 weeks a year and can post a video looking like the inside out one?
There are two questions here - a) How many Holiday Skiers approach L10 standard? (b) Is it possible to get near the Level 10 Standard, with the right determination and commitment - and how long would this take?
On the first point - I think the number of Holiday Skiers (who haven't done a season) that approach L10 is smaller than tiny. IMV. The reason for this, is the vast majority take Class Lessons to an Intermediate/Early Advanced Level....and when they can get about the mountain, stop.
On the second point - I think with a certain ability, combined with dedication and lessons (and potentially work in a snowdome), it's certainly "possible". As to how long it takes - that's very hard to answer, as there are so many variables. I think your 100 hours (16-17 weeks), is probably fair. The number of people who are prepared to do the hard yards and shoulder the expense is tiny, which translates into the standard you see on the mountain.
Moguls are the most difficult to get comfortable in. Off Piste is fantastic, but imv is not a goal of most Holiday skiers...not least because you need the right conditions/safety kit. Race Training is great for your skiing, but again is a nice Add-On, rather than a necessity.
My comment was about encouraging the OP to keep up what he is doing, as it should result in him being one of the better 2 week/yr skiers.....each milestone that is achieved brings a certain elation. I am just keen that the message doesn't become too pessimistic, as in "No matter what you do, you won't achieve much".....but as you have pointed out, it is fair to point out that it will take time.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Getting a bit OT but The IO website describes Level 10 as equivalent to L2 and maybe training for L3 instructor level.
L3 is pretty serious. Maybe
top 20% of BASI / IASI (something like that I remember from looking at the stats).
I can’t think there are many recreational skiers who can reach that level without some serious training. There was one girl on our course who had only done four weeks skiing before the course and now after the best part of the season is a really nice L2 skier. But even she is a way off L3.
I’d describe myself as technical L2 maybe L2 + . That’s taken me at least 250 days on skis of which 60 coached.
Getting a bit OT but The IO website describes Level 10 as equivalent to L2 and maybe training for L3 instructor level.
L3 is pretty serious. Maybe
top 20% of BASI / IASI (something like that I remember from looking at the stats).
I can’t think there are many recreational skiers who can reach that level without some serious training. There was one girl on our course who had only done four weeks skiing before the course and now after the best part of the season is a really nice L2 skier. But even she is a way off L3.
I’d describe myself as technical L2 maybe L2 + . That’s taken me at least 250 days on skis of which 60 coached.
I wish I could go back in time and give myself the benefit of the hard earned knowledge over my skiing journey.
My biggest gains came from some wonderful British/NI Instructors working in Val D'Isere. IME. It's amazing what the right Instructor can do for you......but I am still a Holiday Skier, who is all too well aware of their limitations. At 62, with back surgery, I expect any further gains will be modest.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Old Fartbag wrote:
Davidgdg wrote:
Getting a bit OT but The IO website describes Level 10 as equivalent to L2 and maybe training for L3 instructor level.
L3 is pretty serious. Maybe
top 20% of BASI / IASI (something like that I remember from looking at the stats).
I can’t think there are many recreational skiers who can reach that level without some serious training. There was one girl on our course who had only done four weeks skiing before the course and now after the best part of the season is a really nice L2 skier. But even she is a way off L3.
I’d describe myself as technical L2 maybe L2 + . That’s taken me at least 250 days on skis of which 60 coached.
I wish I could go back in time and give myself the benefit of the hard earned knowledge over my skiing journey.
My biggest gains came from some wonderful British/NI Instructors working in Val D'Isere. IME. It's amazing what the right Instructor can do for you......but I am still a Holiday Skier, who is all too well aware of their limitations. At 62, with back surgery, I expect any further gains will be modest.
Absolutely. Of course we more “mature” skiers had the fundamental disadvantages of learning on straight skis and no you tube. Plus older fashioned teaching and just generally less of everything ski-wise.
But truly never too late to progress. I’m not a million miles off your age and my skiing is unrecognisable from even a year ago. Top quality coaching, sustained time on skis and a desire to progress ….
After all it is free
After all it is free
@viciousvulture, very nice skiing after two weeks on snow. Given your athleticism and your interest in technique by watching all the videos I think that as "a student of the game" you would benefit from some targeted coaching and practice in the off season. Sad to hear your MK experience wasn't great but unfortunately they don't allow independent instructors to work in their facility and the full time staff instructors can get a bit burned out working in a freezer 5 days a week
I run Inside Out skiing along with @rob@rar and we offer coaching clinics at Hemel and on week long courses in the mountains and have helped 100's of skiers make long term improvements. I think we could help ensure you maximise your progress and avoid engraining some of the bad habits that show up in your video clip. I would suggest that at your current level of development mileage on its own would be counter productive. As others have said regular coaching / practice in a dome will do wonders for your skiing and set you up for next season and beyond.
I would suggest a private session or one of our Tune Up clinics and then if you like what we do our Development clinics which have a changing monthly focus would be up your street. Click on my signature link and have a look
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Just a quick couple of points on what I see in the Video.
- The static picture of your video ie. before you press play, shows you in the back seat.
- I think one of the biggest issues, is the way your legs are split ie. The U/Hill ski is too far forward from your D/Hill ski - to the point that you can see daylight between your legs. It's like you have taken a step forward. This has to mess with your ability to change edges at the same time, while probably pushing you into the back seat.
- IMO. There is revealing footage between 1:20 to 1:30:
@1:20 You are facing down the Falline, with feet that are a little too wide apart; your ankles are not flexed enough and you are banking inwards slightly, putting too much weight on the ski that will become the Inside Ski (and thus away from the all important Turning Ski).
@1:24 You will see your "Split Legs" that are prevalent throughout the video
@1:25 There are the split legs - but also your weight is slightly back, compensated for by tipping forward at the waist. This may give the impression you are forward, but is just a compensation.
@1:26 You can see that your Right Arm is almost behind you, instead of in front of you. Your arms are a bit like "Penguin Wings", as in away from the body for balance, but out to the side, instead of being higher and in front of you (they should just be in your vision when looking ahead).
@1:28/1:29 If you pause the video here - this is where I see your best skiing position. Your legs are parallel and not too far apart; there is noticeable angulation from the hip; you are reaching d/hill a little with your left hand.
Since I am not qualified - I am happy to be corrected in what I see.....but that small section - for me - sums up both the good and what needs worked on.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Fri 1-04-22 9:34; edited 4 times in total
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Davidgdg wrote:
Getting a bit OT but The IO website describes Level 10 as equivalent to L2 and maybe training for L3 instructor level.
L3 is pretty serious. Maybe
top 20% of BASI / IASI (something like that I remember from looking at the stats).
I can’t think there are many recreational skiers who can reach that level without some serious training. There was one girl on our course who had only done four weeks skiing before the course and now after the best part of the season is a really nice L2 skier. But even she is a way off L3.
I’d describe myself as technical L2 maybe L2 + . That’s taken me at least 250 days on skis of which 60 coached.
I think the core point is that by the time sometime is approaching L10 standard (in IO terms) their interests have likely diverged and they find other stuff more interesting that perfecting particular types of turns. Most likely in a offpiste or touring or freestyle direction. Thus they might have some tactical or style superiorities while lacking technical perfection.
I'm not claiming to be any great carver but to be honest absolute speed on piste scares me (and the speed people who have less skill than me fly past me scares me more) because I've smashed through a few lollipops as a result of screw ups of various kinds.
It sorta requires the goal orientation of instructor quals to get motivated to put the time in to get to high technical levels. I've been lucky enough to ski a couple of times with people who were genuinely and provably world class. I'm closer to the average never ever than I'll ever be to them.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
Not sure if these sort of experiences are possible for the once/twice a year Brits.
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Although I'm sure I've spent about two weeks on YouTube as well 
