 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi guys, I'm replacing my frame biding setup and looking for something in Marker Alpinist or ATK Racer category and I'm curious how bindings this light handle occasional drops of 2-3 meters. E.g when one has to jump the vertical part of snow accumulated on a ridge to get over it. I don't ski aggressively and I'm quite light and this is the only scenario which makes me think if I should not rather get something like Marker Kingpin.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@petris, I can't help with your exact question as I run a strict skis-on-the-ground policy  but if you are swapping bindings onto the same pair of skis, I can tell you from experience that if you are replacing a Marker frame binding, then the Alpinist is more likely to work around the existing holes (Marker have thought about this). The ATK will probably give you a hole clash.
Obviously, if you are also getting new skis, it makes no difference.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I'm replacing also my skis and boots as both are so worn out, they are now considerably lighter than when they were new 
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The Alpinist will be great for you, I've skied pretty hard on mine the last 3 seasons and not had one pre-release!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I have Alpinist and ATK (FR14, Crest 10, WC). Alpinist is fine. ATK (Free) Raider is great. I have skied it hard and no pre-release yet
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Alpinist about half the price though.......
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Neither should pre release downwards on a drop, unless you mess up the landing and fall forwards.... but then its just called a release
Neither of the above have good energy absorption but will hold you in if you ski with a slightly clean technique.
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I'll add to this for fun.
With the U-spring bindings you are more likely to have a non-release than pre-release forwards. Adjustable bindings are much better.
Side pre-release is more likely with any touring binding than a frame binding. However, generally the lighter the binding the higher the likelihood, due to reduced energy absorption.
That said, I ski pretty hard on all my pin bindings and very rarely have an issue.
99 times out of 100 the story of the binding popping open on the first turn is because you haven't cleared a chunk of ice out.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| dulcamara wrote: |
Neither should pre release downwards on a drop, unless you mess up the landing and fall forwards.... but then its just called a release
Neither of the above have good energy absorption but will hold you in if you ski with a slightly clean technique. |
Don’t know about the physics but the ATK FR14’s certainly feel less jarring than other Tech bindings I’ve used. Maybe the freeride spacers help? And it has 2 independent heel piece settings and 12mm of elasticity.
If you haven’t tried this binding it really is impressive!
https://blisterreview.com/gear-reviews/2020-2021-atk-raider-12-majesty-r12
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That's one thing I don't really agree with @BobinCH about ATK. It's super cool binding, but I have my doubts. First time I went out with them (FR14) this winter, I got 2 pre-releases in single super easy (for me at least) run. They were set like they should be based on ATK manual and recommendation. Well it turned out it's wrong  After setting them correctly (nothing close to what manual suggests, but close to what ATK guys suggest informally), they have been working quite ok, but I still have some unwanted release here and there. So honestly I don't trust them 100%. But to their defense, this winter was pretty weird around here, so maybe not really typical winter. Not much snow, super cold and super windy, which means super icy and bumpy terrain, and well, I'm not used to ski slow and easy. Adding a bit stiffer skis that allow fast skiing on ice and bumps, and maybe things are just too tough for this, even if I'm "only" 75kg. But thing is, I'm used to race alpine bindings which primary mission is to keep ski attached at all costs and releasing when needed is only secondary mission, which might not necessarily work (yes I'm fine with that). With ATK I have feeling releasing when needed (and sometimes not needed) is their primary thing, and keeping skis attached, which might not necessarily work, is secondary.
But otherwise I really like them, so especially if you ski like normal people, I'm pretty sure they will be fine. For jumps it's less problem anyway as forces are more straight up then on icy and bumpy terrain and high speed where forces are all over the place. I never had issues with pre-release at jumping, and I have jumped probably bigger things then most people here, so I surely wouldn't worry about that.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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The Raider is a great binding for sure. Especially for those who like a high DIN. Mostly because they have shifted a load of retention from the heel to the toe.
Perhaps a question I would ask though is why do we want 12mm of elasticity??
First Post was about atk race line stuff though so maybe I should avoid that debate
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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To be clear not release elasticity but length absorption
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| dulcamara wrote: |
The Raider is a great binding for sure. Especially for those who like a high DIN. Mostly because they have shifted a load of retention from the heel to the toe.
Perhaps a question I would ask though is why do we want 12mm of elasticity??
First Post was about atk race line stuff though so maybe I should avoid that debate |
I assume he meant raider rather than racer?
I also have the 105g WC version on some 161cm 65mm waisted 690g skis. I skied them hard down some corrugated iron windblown crust on the Stockji glacier above Zermatt last weekend. I do now probably need to see a chiropractor but was pretty impressed they stayed on! I have the 9 Din U spring version.
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You know it makes sense.
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@primoz, can you share the settings you changed? Assume you mean the 4mm gap?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@BobinCH, yes mainly 4mm gap, which based on info from some ATK guys should actually be 1-1.5mm. Once I set it to 1mm, bindings work way better this way. And another thing is "DIN" which is not DIN (I know touring bindings are not DIN certified) and 14 on FR14 doesn't really mean anything close to 14 on other bindings. While I have bindings set to 14-16 for race skis, all my touring sets were way down on Look (it's in fact painted Dynafit) and Marker (on super light combo I actually use Looks version of Dynafit Speed turn 2.0, which is "DIN" 10 only and never had prerelease), and I used same/similar settings on FR14, but ended up much higher.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Who told you 1 - 1.5 mm? What's the reason? 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I have them set at 4mm using the plastic wedge and set both heel DIN settings to 10 and have had no issues. They’ve only come off once when I Superman dived over the handlebars after an unplanned cliff drop! And they feel great both to tour and ski in. Clipping in is a dream.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@dulcamara, one of ATK technicians, and few of ATK sponsored riders. Reason? Most likely it has something to do with physics length of handles and forces associated with different handle lengths. But thing is, it works way better when set to 1mm then when set to in manual suggested 4mm.
@BobinCH, I think main difference is how someone is skiing, terrain, conditions, speed and with that related forces. Skier's weight is not the only thing that matters when it comes to setting bindings properly.
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No opinion, just a report.
I just stuck the new Raider 14 (set at Din  with a new 305mm boot into the Wintersteiger to see what would happen. At 4mm gap the side release was a clean 81Nm. At 1mm gap the Pins got stuck in the boot and twisted the ski out of the Jig, it did not return a DIN value. The Heel pins are 11.6mm long and the depth of the hole behind the insert was 12,9 mm.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| dulcamara wrote: |
No opinion, just a report.
I just stuck the new Raider 14 (set at Din with a new 305mm boot into the Wintersteiger to see what would happen. At 4mm gap the side release was a clean 81Nm. At 1mm gap the Pins got stuck in the boot and twisted the ski out of the Jig, it did not return a DIN value. The Heel pins are 11.6mm long and the depth of the hole behind the insert was 12,9 mm. |
Good to know. Thanks
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@dulcamara, for me, binding still released in real life when set to 1mm. But it might be it also depends on boots. And honestly I have very little technical experience with pin bindings... for these, I'm just user nothing more
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FAQ
