 Poster: A snowHead
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As a snowboarder my preference is to ride into flat areas at warp 9 as opposed to worrying about wax choice or quality 
After a season starter wax I usually only do it again after base surgery or when the snow goes mash potato.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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From a Val D ski guides blog today,
"To compound my problems I waxed my skis yesterday and didn’t scrape them. The caked-on wax prohibited my skis from gliding and they were impossible to ski. Eventually I took them off and scraped as much wax off as possible using the edge of a ski. That helped enormously and riding up the Col poma rubbed off some wax as well."
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@hang11, hugely irresponsible and one of the reasons my 4 kids have no interest in snowboarding. Flatter areas are often where beginners and those struggling are to be found.
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@endoman, if it's good enough as a regular short cut for a Val D ski guide it's good enough for me.
@hang11, 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@zikomo, big assumption that I would ride into a beginner area fast.
where I usually ride with flat areas it’s along narrow trails on ridge lines to get into steep off piste. Not the sort of place anyone with a nervous disposition would be. I’m usually carrying an axe too, which might add to the worries
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@hang11, 
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[b]@hang11[/b well ok then. But it does happen a lot. I accept not by you.
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| Quote: |
But it does happen a lot
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Maybe. IME people going far too fast through flat beginner areas are more likely to be skiers than boarders.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Is there any evidence that boarders are more likely to be guilty of causing accidents?
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The fact that boarders grind to a halt in flat areas tells you that they are less likely to be going fast through them, at least after the initial bit.
Although just to keep the discussion alive if I’m on touring gear in a flat area i sometime switch to split skiing and pole, way quicker but totally out of control because I’m a sh1te skier
I do stow the axe on my pack when I’m doing that though
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@hang11, I don't have room for an axe in my backpack, but find a probe can make a quick and easy spear if the run out becomes too busy.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@zikomo, are you seriously suggesting that the reason your 4 kids have no interest in boarding is because they couldn't trust themselves not to bring about the tragic deaths of beginners in flat areas? Will the same altruistic impulse lead to their declining to learn to drive?
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You know it makes sense.
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@hang11, @rogg, surely another tactic when boarding through beginner areas would be to push them over and take their poles
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Hahaha!!! Yes - good plan - although kids ones might not be long enough to get good speed up ?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| pam w wrote: |
| @zikomo, are you seriously suggesting that the reason your 4 kids have no interest in boarding is because they couldn't trust themselves not to bring about the tragic deaths of beginners in flat areas? Will the same altruistic impulse lead to their declining to learn to drive? |
Your posts in general seem very well meaning. But you are very strident, often couching a reasonable question in a rather aggressive tone for no good reason I can see. Something to think about.
To answer the reasonable part of your question. No it has nothing to do with them not trusting themselves to "not bring about the tragic deaths of beginners in flat areas". Which is frankly a not very nice thing to say. It is rather that they observe the behaviour of many (not all) snowboarders and judge it to be unsafe. Especially the quite large proportion who are on slopes they can clearly not manage in full control, the speed of clearly less skilled boarders, how close many of these unskilled boarders come to them on roads and paths, and the way they bomb into flat areas at dangerous speeds. They have a particular dislike for how they side slip down steep sections in Scotland, ruining the snow for everyone else, because they are clearly unable to board the section effectively. They do comment positively when they see the (rare) one boarding elegantly, in control, with high edge angles.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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^^wow !
Edited to add - if my (now grown up) kids were that judgey about other people they would quickly get told to pull their heads in and show some tolerance for others.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@hang11, I'm with you on that one. Mind you my son does both (16) and my daughter (14) has boarded a bit.
I thought that the idea that boarders were particularly badly behaved on the slopes compared to skiers (which is what zikomo seem to believe) had died out some time ago.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| zikomo wrote: |
| pam w wrote: |
| @zikomo, are you seriously suggesting that the reason your 4 kids have no interest in boarding is because they couldn't trust themselves not to bring about the tragic deaths of beginners in flat areas? Will the same altruistic impulse lead to their declining to learn to drive? |
Your posts in general seem very well meaning. But you are very strident, often couching a reasonable question in a rather aggressive tone for no good reason I can see. Something to think about.
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And yet your posts in general seem very well meaning. But you are often pompous, sometimes criticising another's imagined behaviour in a rather patronizing tone for no good reason I can see. Something to think about.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Does a sideslipping skier really displace less snow than a sideslipping boarder ?
I would have thought it would be a function of the contact area pushing the snow. ( Assuming they're of roughly equal weight).
A beginner boarder will normally have a board in the low-mid 150s with a running length of around 112-120cm.
A skier has 2 skis (hopefully of equal length) and I don't know much about modern ski geometery, but I'd have thought that the contact length (not withstanding the nuances or rocker / camber / flex etc..) would be > 60cm per ski when sideslipping.
By my basic maths, the skier displaces more snow ??
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@Weathercam, I think that level of parental prejudice would push me into wearing a race suit and getting some tele skis 
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Have to say amazing thread drift, must be the wax
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Dave of the Marmottes, I am sorry that you feel as if I come across as a bit pompous. That is not my intent (or attitude for that matter). I try very hard to not criticise imagined behaviour, but rather stick to what people have actually written and the facts as far as possible.
@Weathercam, Not sure how I am being prudish but will take it under advisement.
And yes I agree @pam w, is very safety conscious. I agree with her more often than not, and on many threads have found us supporting the same position. I was not trying to suggest otherwise and am sorry if I created that impression. My point was related to the manner/tone of some of her posts, in this case for example referring to my kids not trusting themselves to not cause the death of innocent beginners which was unnecessary to her reasonable challenge and somewhat unpleasant.
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@zikomo, like I said prudish, maybe is not quite the right word.
Maybe you're just not "cool" i.e too straight, you might have to ask your daughters on that one
PS I'm sort of curious, what age are they?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Weathercam, I am definitely not "cool" in my daughters eyes, and suspect I never will be! And yes, have to admit I am pretty straight and also a bit too literal on occasion.
Kids are 17, 15, 13, 11 now, three boys and a girl (the 15 year old).
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@zikomo, the tone of this thread deteriorated when you accused @hang11, on the basis of zero evidence, of being "hugely irresponsible". I didn't understand the rest of your post about why your 4 kids don't want to try snowboarding. So I asked two questions - unanswered - about the implication (or perhaps just my inference) that you consider boarding inherently more dangerous than skiing. My comment about your kids, far from suggesting that would ever put a beginner in danger, actually expressed the opposite - admittedly in deliberately over-the-top language.
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@zikomo, I somehow have visions of your kids being like Snoop Mogg's mini-me dressed in tweed possibly contemplating a monocle. I'm pretty confident however that they aren't and are just confident independent kids - some of whom might even dabble in slowboarding at some point in spite or maybe because of parental disapproval.
Every good skier should try snowboarding - it introduces a bit of humilty that you aren't god's gift, makes you aware of additional slope safety aspects and helps you see new lines and approaches to the mountain. Plus of course you can do the death scrape to scare off the skiers and improve your risk of concussion on a good heelside slam.
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You know it makes sense.
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@pam w, I am not alone in my opinion, which I maintain, that the OP is irresponsible and dishonest. I am not going to stop challenging dishonest behaviour especially when presented as being justified because someone thinks he knows better. If you have a different opinion I respect that.
I responded fully to the reasonable aspect of your question, and am at a bit of a loss as to why you think I did not. I gave a pretty comprehensive response with a lot of detail. The main thrust is that it is not snowboarding per se that is inherently more dangerous, but the behaviour of many boarders. Especially the high proportion who seem to have very low skill levels. I also pointed out that they admire very good snowboarding when they see it. Let me know what remains unclear and I will do my best to answer.
I can and do excuse the use of over the top language. And as I said I agree with most of what I see you posting. But I was, perhaps not in the best way, trying to suggest that how things are couched and the tone can sometimes drown out even very reasonable positions.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I'm now lost as to which OP is irresponsible and dishonest. Have you possibly conflated multiple threads?
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Poster: A snowHead
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@Dave of the Marmottes, I probably have conflated threads. And I believe I apologise to @hang11 for making an incorrect assumption. Like most people I get it wrong sometimes and am happy to admit it when I do. I still fail to see how that was the tipping point for the tone deteriorating though.
No idea where you formed that impression of my children, and am especially disturbed that anyone would compare us to Snoop Mogg. Your second description is more accurate. And I would be happy if they did decide to dabble in snowboarding, I am sure they would do so safely. None of them have ever expressed any interest in doing so though. I am for sure too old and damaged myself to attempt it!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@zikomo, it was just a cartoonish exageration of what might be your relationship with your kids based on you citing all 4 of them being of the same mind as you on matters. No offensive intended although I can see it is intrinsically offensive to be compared to Snoop Mogg. I apologise - while you are straight I am rarely entirely serious.
But your reaction to @hang11 was a clear point at which this thread diverted.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Dave of the Marmottes, I did not think you meant offence and did not take any. Except as you say the inherent offence of even being mentioned in the same sentence as the odious Mogg!
My children are not at all of the same mind as me on many subjects. We have engaging and robust debates often, from which I find myself learning a great deal. They just happen to agree with me (and each other which is even more unusual) on many matters related to mountain safety. Neither they nor I think all snowboarders are dangerous, or that snowboarding itself is inherently dangerous. And for sure there are skiers who display the same dangerous behaviours (too fast, over-terrained, not in control). Just an observation that the proportion doing so is higher amongst snowboarders. Anyway skiing seems to be more "cool" and trendy those days. The two things conflated probably explain their lack of interest, but as I said I would be happy of any of them wanted to give it a go (they would have to accept a degree of teasing though!).
I will have another look at my posts. But not sure I can be blamed for other's tone. And as I said I quickly admitted I had got it wrong when challenged.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| zikomo wrote: |
| Just an observation that the proportion doing so is higher amongst snowboarders. |
An observation under question - pamw asked "Is there any evidence that boarders are more likely to be guilty of causing accidents?"
That you are a family of skiers I guess adds to the question of credibility.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@philwig, Of course I don't mind, always interested in facts and statistics. I think this is a very hard thing to measure though. My comment on dishonesty was misplaced, I actually meant it for a different thread and think I hit paste in error.
My opinion is based on observation only, albeit quite extensive. And I remain of that opinion. But this makes very interesting reading.
@Layne, I do not know how many more times I can answer the same question. I shared an observation, not other evidence as I have none.
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| pam w wrote: |
Well, it was the guy in our local ski shop in France who told me that. We experimented with our skis, scraping one of a pair and not the other, and putting them on blind. Struggled to tell the difference. A top pianist with perfect pitch will know when her piano is even a wee bit out of tune; most of those who bash away wouldn't notice. The excess wax gets scraped off anyway. There are some snow conditions - slushy - where unscraped skis will stick but mostly it's fine. If you lose a few seconds on your first couple of descents of the day, it's not a big deal.
When we were doing skis on the balcony of our apartment one day our French neighbour, who lived near Lyon and had skied all her life and was a far better skier than the majority of Brit holiday makers was intrigued and asked whether we did it "every year". When my husband (who was at the keen stage of ski tech) said he did it every week she thought it was hilarious. |
That's interesting! I've always thought about making similar experiments to see if we notice any difference in practice, perhaps I should try it once. I see a lot of "logical" explanations on how wax works but I'm often a bit sceptical.
Some of the things I'd like to try:
- Scraped vs non scraped (as you did - though my main drawback here would be the environment, considering the higher amount of wax being left in the snow);
- Freshly waxed vs no wax for the last week;
- Brushed vs non brushed (I doubt I'd really notice anything);
- With liquid/rub-on wax vs without;
- 1 layer of wax vs multiple layers of wax (comparing both after several days of use);
- Freshly sharpened vs not sharpened for a few days.
I've look up more "scientific" approaches on this but the ones I found were mostly on cross-country (and I think often using waxes with fluorine, which I'd rather avoid), and I didn't find the results to be particularly conclusive.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1877705814005645/pdf?md5=cbe99b8a8114ccbdd545e68a76ccdc04&pid=1-s2.0-S1877705814005645-main.pdf
"The results from the gliding field tests showed that both of the test materials acquired significantly better gliding properties after wax treatments and further enhanced properties during skiing for a long time. Considering the literature, friction and contact angle for water droplet results obtained in the lab, this is most likely only a happy coincidence. Further gliding field tests to prove this should be performed."
https://www.kuzmin.se/docs/lic_thesis.pdf
[i]"The ski base material - UHMWPE (...) has an enormous abrasion resistance and does not need any glide wax protection".[/]
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@zikomo, maybe I missed it but I don't think you said you had no evidence until just now.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Layne wrote: |
| @zikomo, maybe I missed it but I don't think you said you had no evidence until just now. |
Ummm not sure why I would have? Or indeed why I would be asked to. I shared my observation, and that of my kids. I made no claim as to evidence. Not least as I have struggled to find evidence that is not contradicted by other evidence! I suspect it is almost impossible to prove one way or the other.
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Oh, FFS.
Back on topic:
When I'm forced to wax (because my local shop has gone bust or something), I have a big, 8' x 4' sheet of cordex (?) bought in Wickes for peanuts, that I put on the floor. Unlike decoraters sheets it stays put. It's really easy to roll it afterwards to put all detritus in the bin too. And it gets stashed flat in the loft or garage as I see fit.
It's the stuff used to cover doors/floors/anything really in case of damage while building is still going on.
Dead easy.
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FAQ
