 Poster: A snowHead
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Just back from a very wet (rainy rather than snow) trip where even my freshly reproofed Mountain Equipment Goretex jacket proved ineffective.
So - recommendations please of jackets that would be wet weather proof - shell or lined.
Also - any suggestions for waterproof gloves would also be great.
Many thanks
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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For gloves, I wouldn’t look any further than Hestra, I’ve had others, but the Hestras are the best, hands down, pardon the pun!
Jackets, others will have their preference, if waterproofing is the most important feature, try to get a jacket rated for 10,000mm, I have a spyder jacket that is still waterproof after a lot of use, be careful though, they seem to produce their premium garments and then another line of not so good stuff for TK maxx or similar. I also like the schoffel stuff as it’s always faired well for my when out hunting, they do ski stuff and it’s very well reviewed.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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What would you be doing in this kit? Marigolds are totally waterproof but may not be the answer if you need some insulation too. Doesn’t stop some old school cyclists using them though
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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do you know the rating on your current gear?
I wear planks. Yeti stuff is 20k / 20k for waterproof/breathability. Good times is 15k / 15k
The Yeti is just an outer shell, so no warmth at all! You really have to think & plan your midlayers
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@Ray Zorro, What went wrong with your ME gore-tex? If it's not delaminated, taped seams are sound, and properly repellent it's about as waterproof as anything you can buy.
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<shrug> I ride plenty of places where the freezing level isn't at the bottom of the valley.
GoreTex is my preferred fabric still. It shouldn't die, but I'd not keep it long enough to find out so I'm not claiming expertise on that.
I've used both shells and the equivalent lined jackets and never noticed any difference in water resistance.
Plain shells are more flexible so are my slight preference eg for snowboarding in June.
Gloves are more of a challenge. I use mitts which are more water resistant because they have fewer seams and generally less "leather" stuff. Now and then I've had completely waterproof mitts ("mountaineering" brands), but I don't know of any currently available. You have to regularly proof all the "leather" bits or they'll get damp through the day. That should not result in wet hands though if the things are correctly taped. I like mitts with separate shells. With those it's easy to reverse the outer and examine the taped seams. It's a good idea to check once a year or so, and re-glue any which need it. I have some glue specially designed for that. (Which reminds me: seams in shells may be more prone to damage, but at least you can see and fix any which need it, which you can't do with a lined jacket.)
I use mitts with an "over the cuff" gauntlet for powder. If you want to ride all day in steady rain, for example on plastic, then obviously you'll need to rig differently or the rain will flow off the shell, under the gauntlet, and into the mitts. As the mitts will be, as noted, waterproof, that's where the water will stay. All day. In this I claim expertise.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@RobinS, no idea why it leaked? I'd used 2 Nikwax products and tumble dried it all in accordance with the instructions, but the front of my Rab jacket beneath was dripping wet as were the layers below that.
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| Ray Zorro wrote: |
| @RobinS, no idea why it leaked? I'd used 2 Nikwax products and tumble dried it all in accordance with the instructions, but the front of my Rab jacket beneath was dripping wet as were the layers below that. |
If it wasn't cold enough to be snowing instead of raining , the description of " jacket below and the layers underneath" might point to a different reason for the dampness.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Yes, my thoughts are condensation on the inside. Gore -tex is breathable, but if it is raining hard, the outer surface is wet, so breathability is limited. If you had a couple of layers underneath the the gore -tex layer could have been too Insulated from your body warmth, so your moisture condenses inside the jacket. In wet weather you need a substantial temperature gradient between the inside and outside to get any breathable waterproof to actually get water vapour to go through it.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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After many decades of mountaineering and other outdoor activities I have realised that there are some conditions where you just get wet.
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Interesting - thanks
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
that's where the water will stay. All day. In this I claim expertise.
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Titter.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Ray Zorro, Arc'teryx.
Completely waterproof.
Perfect for pic-nics: can sit on the jacket and not get wet bum.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@Ray Zorro, Hmmm. If it's raining, by definition it's not (that) cold. Condensation as above? Too many layers?
My last Gore-Tex jacket lasted 12 years (so around 500 ski days) before it became re-proof resistant. But I try very hard not to ski in the rain.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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It was definitely water coming in rather than condensation. I wasn't skiing hard and there was a lot of standing around.
I shall relook at the way I reproofed my jacket. From what I've seen in that linked article and what is being said here, it could be my user error? Still detergent in the machine maybe.
Shall look into some hestra gloves though.
@Jonpim, was wondering about Arc'teryx. Happy to spend that much if it works, but I guess mine also ought to work - or it would if I'm not doing it wrong?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Ray Zorro wrote: |
It was definitely water coming in rather than condensation. I wasn't skiing hard and there was a lot of standing around.
I shall relook at the way I reproofed my jacket. From what I've seen in that linked article and what is being said here, it could be my user error? Still detergent in the machine maybe.
Shall look into some hestra gloves though.
@Jonpim, was wondering about Arc'teryx. Happy to spend that much if it works, but I guess mine also ought to work - or it would if I'm not doing it wrong? |
Did you have the hood up all the time ?
Regarding arc'teryx or any other brand, there are different versions of goretex, for sure, but waterproof is waterproof, and goretex don't sell ok stuff to one brand , and top quality stuff to another so should be all the same.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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If it was just down the front (rather than across the shoulders which usually takes the brunt) is the fastening suspect?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Jonpim wrote: |
| .. Perfect for pic-nics: can sit on the jacket and not get wet bum. |
That's what the shovel pack/ airbag's for.
I've the best Arc stuff and I'd still wouldn't sit on the snow in it - snow's cold and wet.
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| Roguevfr wrote: |
Did you have the hood up all the time ?
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No - none of the time
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| Ray Zorro wrote: |
| Roguevfr wrote: |
Did you have the hood up all the time ?
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No - none of the time |
Aha. The big, open funnel shaped opening at the top of the jacket might have something to do with it then.
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^^^ likewise with gloves you have the great big hole for your hands which will eventually let in water unless you are really really careful
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Clearly these garments are inadequately sealed. Most disappointing....
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| Quote: |
Regarding arc'teryx or any other brand, there are different versions of goretex, for sure, but waterproof is waterproof, and goretex don't sell ok stuff to one brand , and top quality stuff to another so should be all the same.
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Yeah. Having had an ME Changabang, which I wore until it fell apart, you shouldn't be getting that wet under the jacket. It was no different in quality to the Arcteryx trousers I paired it with.
That said, everything wets out eventually. If you are sat in the pissing rain for 15 minutes on a chairlift then you are going to get water pooling on you etc. There's not a lot you can do in those circumstances. Last time that happened to me my (newish - 20 days) Arcteryx sabre pants wetted out. Stayed dry inside but you start losing heat when that happens.
I retreated to Clos Bernard by Meribel Altiport and had a 3hr lunch next to a gas heater. Sometimes it's the right option.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Ray Zorro, my experience is also that wet weather doesn't last forever. I suspect, as people have suggested above, it isn't the Goretex layer that fails, but the water repellancy above that. If the outer fabric doesn't repel rain and gets soaked, then it provides a cold layer promoting condensation and doesn't allow water vapour close to the body an escape route.
I hope someone here has a solution - in my experience once it gets like that, using a domestic reproofing agent (like Nikwax) is a very temporary fix.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Jonpim, ive 2 Arcteryx jackets and both have been back for repairs. My experience is they fall to bits. The newer of the 2 needs to go back again the powder skirt is coming away from the main shell and the cuffs are de laming where they're turned under on them selves.
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@Mother hucker, how odd. We've got and have had various Arcteryx things (i.e. so far 10 jackets, not all shells) and in our experience they are more or less indestructible.
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You know it makes sense.
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@j b, don't ski in the rain ...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@under a new name, my original one (made in canada) the powder skirt came out and the draw string housing at the bottom frayed apart. I now use that for MTB.
My current one the powder skirt came away and the drawstring housing came away which they repaired. Now the powder skirt is coming away again and the bottom of the sleeves have delamed, just noticed a selection of the hood has delamed as well. I try not to wash my outdoor weather kit. when I do its at 30* with tech wash. my pants have been bomber though
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Poster: A snowHead
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@Mother hucker, I’m not sure that’s representative! Not our experience anyway. Mrs U had a jacket that after 5 seasons (so probs 300 days use) was wearing in very odd places. Took it back to the Arc shop, returned, message back “we can’t repair because we no longer use that fabric, for this very reason - so we can give you the jacket back or €400 against a new one”.
Pretty fair we thought, walked out with a new one 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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IF your GoreTex jacket is allowing water in through the fabric and membrane (as opposed to coming in at the top or getting wet from sweat from within) send it back to GoreTex. That shouldn't happen, and GoreTex have an excellent warranty. They will either repair or replace with a new product.
As much as I like Arcteryx, Norrona, etc, there should not be any difference in waterproofing between an Arc and ME GoreTex Pro jacket.
BTW I have and like Hestra gloves too, but at least the leather versions you have to stay on top of treating the leather if you want them to stay truly dry in wet snow.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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^ this.
If your fabic is letting water through the membrane has deteriorated.
'Reproofing' is only refreshing the DWR layer ie making the water bead up and roll off better, you are not 're-waterproofing' the fabric.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
Still detergent in the machine maybe.
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or worse fabric softener, clean the machine, take the drawer out, run it empty etc.
DWR and the ptfe membrane in the gortex work by surface tension, detergent and especially softener work by reducing surface tension so are bad.
Dirt and especially oil and alcohol will also kill the surface tension in the membrane. (A show and tell experiment is to take a piece of membrane, demonstrate a large water head above it, drain, run IPA over the membrane, then water. the water will run straight through)
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| RobinS wrote: |
| After many decades of mountaineering and other outdoor activities I have realised that there are some conditions where you just get wet. |
This. Best bet is to have some sort of return to base where you can swap shells, gloves etc when the first ones become saturated. Or be born in the NW of England or W Scotland where being soaked to the skin is a constituent part of a good day out.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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If your using a machine for DWR then your doing the interior as well as the exterior which doesnt sound sensible to me .
Who sells jackets and pants advertised with internal DWR ?
The machine heat, detergent and overkill agitation will kill the layer and tape bonding eventually anyway.... its just glue and like putting you hiking boots in a washing machine ?
I hand wash with nikwash or the non detergent soap (i have forgotten the name of at your local superMkt) ,hand scrub oil or black marks ,rinse with overkill ,then spray the outer and damp sponge the DWR for coverage.
I dont immerse or soak overnight or for very long at all .
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Sun 20-02-22 15:12; edited 3 times in total
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I never wash any of my Goretex jackets and don’t get wet. Never reproofed a jacket.
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@Markymark29, but you do smell terrible
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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 @under a new name,
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