I had 35 days of experience of skiing in my life before doing this, I started skiing in 2019 and with covid I couldn't ski much, so as this season things are a bit better for traveling, I managed to ski(on piste) in November and December and at the end of January I decided to go to Chamonix for my first off-piste experience. Maybe... just maybe I rushed a bit to do this training
It was WAY more difficult than I expected. On piste I can manage anything, black slopes, steep, narrow... not the best technique on those terrains, but I manage and rarely take a fall. I expected that we would go slow in this off-piste training as this was an introduction course, but my instructor was like: "Follow me" and just jump into some quite challenging terrain with trees, massive moguls and narrow paths with a big drop in case of a fall.
I can't blame them for the lack of my experience, but I honestly thought an introduction course would be an easier pace. I had never stepped into fat skis in my life, neither soft snow, I just had no idea how to do that and was falling 100 times in the middle of the trees while my group waited for me at the bottom
The whole experience was 20% joy, 30% frustration and 50% fear
I liked and when I look back that even though I was falling like a ripe fruit, I managed everything and the feeling that the job was done at the end of the day was amazing.
I'll definitely try off-piste again, but I'll wait 2 or 3 seasons to improve on-piste things like my balance and stance, doing some jumps and moguls before I go back to the off-piste.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Mon 14-02-22 11:24; edited 1 time in total
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
To be fair, that’s not the friendliest run for an introductory course! You’re obviously shying away from the steepness/narrowness which is causing your skis to run away from you. A bit of skiing down a narrow path on a steep piste (or braquage (?sp)) would help with that.
Glad you’re keen for more after all that!
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
The UCPA courses in Chamonix I think have quite a strong definition of "introductory".
Certainly when I have done it there have been several people who have done several of said course (3-4 weeks off piste instruction) who probably should be on the intermediate/advanced off piste courses, as that certainly isn't what I would call introductory terrain. This makes it hard for instructors who have to try to deal with a group where most are good skiers wanting something harder...
@AndreSilva, Chapeau! You are seriously brave and resilient doing that on a few weeks piste skiing. That’s steep, exposed terrain in hard conditions, miles away from an intro to off piste!
Technique needs a little work as per @Arno tips but with guts like that you will progress fast. Well done!
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@AndreSilva, Tricky one, there’s not much space and I would say that’s day5 intro.
Tip: try and turn to face down the mountain (to get your edges in) and use your poles for jump turns. Works a treat.
I think this year's bash is full, but perhaps you could get on next year's?
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
BobinCH wrote:
@AndreSilva, Chapeau! You are seriously brave and resilient doing that on a few weeks piste skiing. That’s steep, exposed terrain in hard conditions, miles away from an intro to off piste!
Technique needs a little work as per @Arno tips but with guts like that you will progress fast. Well done!
Thanks mate! To be honest, I was so busy trying to figure out how to go down that most of the time I didn't have much time to be scared... the problem was when I stopped to think too much and think what would happen if I fall with all those rocks in a steep area
After all it is free
After all it is free
Arno wrote:
To be fair, that’s not the friendliest run for an introductory course! You’re obviously shying away from the steepness/narrowness which is causing your skis to run away from you. A bit of skiing down a narrow path on a steep piste (or braquage (?sp)) would help with that.
Glad you’re keen for more after all that!
That was exactly my thought, didn't expect that on an introductory course!
I agree with you, some braquage technique will help me in places like this, now I need to go to some steep black on-piste slopes to train!
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
qwerty360 wrote:
The UCPA courses in Chamonix I think have quite a strong definition of "introductory".
Certainly when I have done it there have been several people who have done several of said course (3-4 weeks off-piste instruction) who probably should be on the intermediate/advanced off-piste courses, as that certainly isn't what I would call introductory terrain. This makes it hard for instructors who have to try to deal with a group where most are good skiers wanting something harder...
I agree! Maybe they got lost in translation, that's not my definition of "Introductory"
For my luck, nobody in my group had any experience with off-piste, but all of them had many years of on-piste experience, even the most experienced guy(more than 20 years experience) thought the course was difficult
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
That gully looks much too narrow for an introduction to off-piste. Instructors should not expect us to learn how to link turns by threatening us with rocks.
I think this year's bash is full, but perhaps you could get on next year's?
Yep, maybe next year, I guess I had enough off-piste for this season
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
I'm pretty surprised the instructor a) let you ski that and b) said "really really good" at the end...what would really bad have looked like, a helicopter picking up your lifeless corpse?
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Given you fell several times and almost went into your group on the exit I wouldn't in a million years take you or a group with "nobody had any experience with off - piste" into terrain like that. Was this at the end of the week ? Was anyone injured ? Another rubbish UPCA instructor that thinks "follow me" is the way to introduce people to off piste skiing. Have they learned nothing https://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=119792
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@AndreSilva, it's called character building!!
My first off piste course was similar (Ucpa flaine). The instructor didn't seem interested in teaching more guiding. I had a miserable time, the snow was terrible and he didn't want to venture too far as he had to pick up his kids from school so we ended up doing the same things over again. Needless to say I quit after day 3. 2 years later ucpa argentiere with a young instructor and a great group had one of the best weeks of my life.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Yes, you were amazingly brave. It sounds as if you were badly led - I'd definitely have given up. But 35 days experience on piste is very little, especially if you'd not had much good quality instruction.
I did an "introduction to off piste" course in Les Deux Alpes, some years ago, which was very different from that. Culminated with a descent in La Grave, but by the "easy" route, and taken at a very forgiving pace. One fast group being led by an ESF instructor lapped us. After one guy, whose key weakness was being overweight and unfit, had given up earlier in the week, after a fall off-piste, but on easy terrain, where we all had to work as a team to get him down, I was left as the weakest skier in the group, as well as the oldest, and the only woman. I often felt foolish, but never in any danger and all concerned were supportive - we had a good time and I learnt a lot (mostly about my limitations!).
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
And the La Grave experience was fabulous - I wouldn't have missed it. I did think hard at the top of the lift, looking at the nice welcoming café and thinking I could stay there for a bit, then go down in the lift..... and not be in any danger of holding up the group. I voiced my feelings to the instructor, but she was adamant that I could do it, and should do it. And she was right - not that I did it with any style! Being out in that wonderful place was pretty special.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
There is no way that terrain is 'introductory'!! I have >35 weeks ski experience and I'd be very cautious in that location. For an introduction, I'd be expecting wide open bowls, some steepness and exposure to varying snow conditions. I think you got the 'really, really good' feedback because you go the instructor out of the poo by getting down in one piece.
My experince of UCPA is that they can gung-ho!
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
coddlesangers wrote:
I'm pretty surprised the instructor a) let you ski that and b) said "really really good" at the end...what would really bad have looked like, a helicopter picking up your lifeless corpse?
When she said "really good" it was because on the first days I wasn't confident enough and she was happy to see that I managed to make a few turns, specially the first ones when I wasn't afraid to make the turns in terrain like that.
But I agree that for a beginner course, I shouldn't even be there.
@AndreSilva, Tricky one, there’s not much space and I would say that’s day5 intro.
Tip: try and turn to face down the mountain (to get your edges in) and use your poles for jump turns. Works a treat.
That was day 3
Yep, facing down the mountain is still a challenge for me, need to work on that.
Any half decent instructor would have spotted that immediately and fixed it. Once you get that, steeps are a piece of cake. Problem is, it’s a fundamental problem and takes ages to sort out - I have occasional issues with it myself. A bit of counter-rotation helps.
TBF, there didn’t seem to be much danger if you fell, pretty much straight down. Snow was ok. She thought you were good enough on piste I guess.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Quote:
TBF, there didn’t seem to be much danger if you fell, pretty much straight down.
Did you not see that big rock in the middle of the gully? If he had flipped over above it and went tumbling could have easily gone right over the top of it.
After all it is free
After all it is free
@AndreSilva, Do you feel that you got value for money on your coaching week with UPCA?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
AL9000 wrote:
TBF, there didn’t seem to be much danger if you fell, pretty much straight down. Snow was ok. She thought you were good enough on piste I guess.
Puzzles me why the leader/instructor took the group down a shady gully. No sunny ones ? The whole deal would have been much nicer in sunshine Maybe the perils of booking a course in January ...
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
The other issue with UCPA is numbers; And I suspect this is why a lot tends towards guiding with an occasional drill rather than instruction - it is hard to instruct, especially in the off piste with groups of 12 (but people don't want to pay for groups of 6 given a huge chunk of the cost is the instructor)...
In addition it looks to me like you are doing what I would describe as survival skiing; An excellent way to bake in bad habits rather than improving. This is a direct result of the terrain being too hard. I have done terrain towards the end of Introductory courses similar to this, but 1. late in the course, 2. with a group who I suspect from the video were more experienced than you, 3. the instructor was using it to practice jump/stem turns with very specific guidance as to how to get down it. 4. Much smaller group
I would also query where (I assume) the instructor was stood at 25s in - certainly going down there I would probably have wanted to do a turn with the 'escape route'/traverse being between the rocks to where the instructor is stopped...
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
skimottaret wrote:
@AndreSilva, Do you feel that you got value for money on your coaching week with UPCA?
Hmmm... difficult to say.
I was expecting a training course but it was just a guiding. My instructor didn't teach me any new skills or drills, they already expected me to have it.
As I said in the first post, I have a technique good enough to handle anything on piste, I go to black slopes quite often and very rarely fall, but it was not enough for this.
1.000 euros for 6 nights(5 days skiing) + equipment + meals is a pretty good deal in my opinion, but I really expected more from the instructor, not just to show me which way to go and wait for me to get there.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
skimottaret wrote:
Given you fell several times and almost went into your group on the exit I wouldn't in a million years take you or a group with "nobody had any experience with off - piste" into terrain like that. Was this at the end of the week ? Was anyone injured ? Another rubbish UPCA instructor that thinks "follow me" is the way to introduce people to off piste skiing. Have they learned nothing https://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=119792
Luckily no one was injured, but everybody felt it was very difficult.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
pam w wrote:
Yes, you were amazingly brave. It sounds as if you were badly led - I'd definitely have given up. But 35 days experience on piste is very little, especially if you'd not had much good quality instruction.
I did an "introduction to off piste" course in Les Deux Alpes, some years ago, which was very different from that. Culminated with a descent in La Grave, but by the "easy" route, and taken at a very forgiving pace. One fast group being led by an ESF instructor lapped us. After one guy, whose key weakness was being overweight and unfit, had given up earlier in the week, after a fall off-piste, but on easy terrain, where we all had to work as a team to get him down, I was left as the weakest skier in the group, as well as the oldest, and the only woman. I often felt foolish, but never in any danger and all concerned were supportive - we had a good time and I learnt a lot (mostly about my limitations!).
To be honest, after the 1st day I talked with her and showed my concerns that I was kind of slowing down the group, I expected it to be easier and I could either quit or she would have to take it slowly. I'm glad I managed to finish all days, but I thought about quitting literally every day
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Gainz wrote:
@AndreSilva, it's called character building!!
My first off piste course was similar (Ucpa flaine). The instructor didn't seem interested in teaching more guiding. I had a miserable time, the snow was terrible and he didn't want to venture too far as he had to pick up his kids from school so we ended up doing the same things over again. Needless to say I quit after day 3. 2 years later ucpa argentiere with a young instructor and a great group had one of the best weeks of my life.
I almost quit too, I had 2 long talks with her after the day was over and she convinced me to keep going. I'm glad that I made it, but it was very mentally challenging.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
qwerty360 wrote:
The other issue with UCPA is numbers; And I suspect this is why a lot tends towards guiding with an occasional drill rather than instruction - it is hard to instruct, especially in the off piste with groups of 12 (but people don't want to pay for groups of 6 given a huge chunk of the cost is the instructor)...
In addition it looks to me like you are doing what I would describe as survival skiing; An excellent way to bake in bad habits rather than improving. This is a direct result of the terrain being too hard. I have done terrain towards the end of Introductory courses similar to this, but 1. late in the course, 2. with a group who I suspect from the video were more experienced than you, 3. the instructor was using it to practice jump/stem turns with very specific guidance as to how to get down it. 4. Much smaller group
I would also query where (I assume) the instructor was stood at 25s in - certainly going down there I would probably have wanted to do a turn with the 'escape route'/traverse being between the rocks to where the instructor is stopped...
We were quite a small group, only 4 people.
During the hardest days, I thought exactly what you said: I'm not skiing, I'm just controlling my ski so I don't die and get back down in one piece.
Edit: I watched it again and I think I see a big boulder - to the right of the tree?
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Mon 14-02-22 14:10; edited 1 time in total
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I guess if I post the other route we took that same day after this you would freak out
Much more difficult than this one(for my basic skills), in short I had to hang at the top of the slope with only 1 arm and "jump" into a very steep couloir(see me hanging on the top left):
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Mon 14-02-22 14:06; edited 2 times in total
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
That's not an introduction to anything, except how to get injured and trash your skis.
Back in the day, I often found some French Instructors took me places that removed confidence, rather than built it. They had a "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger" attitude.
Well done for getting down and still wanting to go Off Piste again.
TBF, there didn’t seem to be much danger if you fell, pretty much straight down. Snow was ok. She thought you were good enough on piste I guess.
Puzzles me why the leader/instructor took the group down a shady gully. No sunny ones ? The whole deal would have been much nicer in sunshine Maybe the perils of booking a course in January ...
Looks like the latest post shows a nice sunny gully. Ideal for le pique-nique, no?
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
AndreSilva wrote:
I guess if I post the other route we took that same day after this you would freak out ...
That looks like a nicer gully to ski. You're in the sunshine, the snow looks more forgiving and your route will be much easier to see.
After all it is free
After all it is free
AL9000 wrote:
moffatross wrote:
AL9000 wrote:
TBF, there didn’t seem to be much danger if you fell, pretty much straight down. Snow was ok. She thought you were good enough on piste I guess.
Puzzles me why the leader/instructor took the group down a shady gully. No sunny ones ? The whole deal would have been much nicer in sunshine Maybe the perils of booking a course in January ...
Looks like the latest post shows a nice sunny gully. Ideal for le pique-nique, no?
Exactement !
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
AndreSilva wrote:
Old Fartbag wrote:
... They had a "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger" attitude ...
That is EXACTLY what I thought about my instructor!
Back in the 80s, when I struggled to turn off piste - my instructor took me into trees and said, "If there is a tree in the way, you will turn". He also took me onto a Black Mogul field to learn control in Bumps.
This is the exact opposite of the approach that I subsequently had from British/Australian/American Instructors.
Before going anywhere near that gully, you should have been taken down something steep, but wide, to make sure your technique was up to it.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
pam w wrote:
The trouble is, there are so many great videos, on Snowheads, of people like @Arno and @BobinCH making it look easy!
Ha, you obviously haven’t seen any recent vids of me
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Poster: A snowHead
Maybe the perils of booking a course in January ...
