 Poster: A snowHead
|
Hi all - you may have seen the long standing thread on Ski Club of GB CEO and repercussions (SCGB). The view shared by many is that the SCGB has lost relevance, and is terminally broken. Sadly after many happy years in SCGB - I owe the Club and great reps a huge amount for re-awaking my love of skiing - I too have concluded it will not make the changes needed. Perhaps it will justify the membership fee for me and others. However the most glaring facts are that not only has membership declined by 20% pa, assets declined by £4m and core offerings lost, but the average age of members has increased by ten years in the last ten years. In other words the Club is failing to refresh so how can it possibly survive? It simply and sadly seems irrelevant to a new generations of skiers.
This thread is intended to open up the question as to whether there is room for a new Club for British skiers, and if so what would it look like. (for SCGB Council readers of this thread please treat this as a positive challenge, there is no reason in principle why SCGB couldn't serve the opportunity here)
Snowheads started out claiming Ski Club 2.0 - and to a large extent it is - it does many things brilliantly. However it is perhaps not quite a club? (happy to be corrected on this) I have in mind an active network of skiers, with in resort presence where club members meet and ski together, and share benefits, knowledge and company.
What would appeal to the 30 somethings? What would the core offerings be? I suspect it would need to offer a lot for free, but why not - a club is all about members sharing with others after all.
So do please share thoughts on whether there is room for a new Ski Club, and given a clean sheet what would it look like?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
Like a tired, ageing Phoenix, it’s being eaten alive by untreatable, microscopic money-eating superbugs, from the inside.
It can rise again BUT only 1 wo/man/thing can fix it - that’s why they’ve banned him/her/it!!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
Never been a member, and not aware of the various politics and background.
But one gap they could fulfil (potentially) is for families.
We liked using operators such as Family Ski because of the comfort factor it brought to the kids ski lessons, I.e. more likely to have some English friends and a helper to smooth the whole drop off process and make sure kids have a good time.
Those providers have priced us out now, so we DIY it which means we are at the mercy of ESF which could be a fantastic week or a disaster depending on what you get.
If SCGB could provide something in this gap, like group lessons with ESF, but with the wrapper/organisation of a UK club and therefore matchmaking/organising kids with buddies in the lessons that would be interesting.
Family Ski used to actually have one of their staff go with the kids in the lesson, which made things way more comfortable.
That would take the worry factor out for me of getting the kids back after the first day saying “all the other kids are french, no one chats to me and the instructor is only speaking french” and hence a battle on day 2 drop off!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
It would be on the RYA model. Responsible for recreational activity, professional qualifications and sport including Olympics. Or even the BSAC model - recreational activity and professional qualifications as there is no competitive sport.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
@colinstone, those 3 functions are already taken by SSUK, SSGB, BASI, Snowsport England, Snowsport Scotland, SIGB, the National Schools Snowsports Association, the English Schools Ski Association, Snowsport Wales, and, of course, SCGB... and just perhaps there may be one of the roots of the problem... not very many lunches, but so many diners.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| Richard_Sideways wrote: |
| @colinstone, those 3 functions are already taken by SSUK, SSGB, BASI, Snowsport England, Snowsport Scotland, SIGB, the National Schools Snowsports Association, the English Schools Ski Association, Snowsport Wales, and, of course, SCGB... and just perhaps there may be one of the roots of the problem... not very many lunches, but so many diners. |
I couldn’t join an organisation offering professional qualifications where one of the Council members has repeatedly called me a bedwetter, amongst other personal insults. There would be definite questions over fairness and impartiality.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| AL9000 wrote: |
| It can rise again BUT only 1 wo/man/thing can fix it - that’s why they’ve banned him/her/it!! |
You're surely not suggesting that DG is the solution?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@Richard_Sideways, yes, I know they are. But before those organisations existed, SCGB was the only organisation, and indeed earlier than most clubs in countries with mountains, Muerren SC 1912. The end was let go and these other outfits filled in the vacuum. And there are so many of them.
RYA held onto everything and in many ways sets the world standards.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
@colinstone, Abolishing every other UK snowsports organization and returning their functions to SCGB isn't going to happen.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@rjs, yes. But that isn't to say the RYA is not the best model. Bluesky/clean sheet etc.
Such a shame that 2 out of 3 sides of the triangle were given away.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
I don't think trying to breathe new life into the SCGB is likely to be a winner. The people associated with the club don't do themselves or their organisation any favours, and work hard to put people off having anything to do with the SCGB. Any new club would be wise to distance itself completely.
What would you want from a club that SnowHeads doesn't offer? There are organised events that anyone can join, discounts for paid-up members, and if you want to organise some kind of unofficial meet-up, there's nothing stopping you. Genuine question, because you may already find that the thing you want already exists in some capacity.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
Well many active sHs would probably say - build it like sHs. Build in on passion and community spirit not rules and stuffiness and let any commercial aspects develop organically. There's no doubt @dadmin has been able to build a living lifestyle out of this but it's not one anyone begrudges because generally he's pretty straight with people and there isn't a great army of cronies getting huge perks while pretending it is all self sacrifice (I mean I expect he ensures @el hen gets a nice room but then she does have to put up with him the rest of the year  )
The key point I think is that sHs isn't really a club and "club" itself has all sorts of connotations related to insiders and outsiders and formality and subs and rules. So if you want to attract people who want some sort of "clubbiness" you are defacto excluding those who don't.
I suspect I might if I had a caravan join the camping and caravan club not because of any great desire to show off my megavan or hang pennants or go to clubmeets and schmooze around the vans but simply to gain access to sites of a decent standard that I knew were unlikely to be overrun with boombox playing groups of teen/20somethings who couldn't handle their stella.
I dunno what the equivalent would be in skiing - put me on holidays in places with people who were serious about skiing but not TOO serious about skiing? Find me people wherevaer I may be who follow the rules in spirit (which means not following them) while particularly following rule 7?
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Fri 30-07-21 14:31; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Are there Freshtracks trips to different resorts happening at the same time ? I guess that is currently one limit on SnowHeads, admin can only be in one place at a time running a bash.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
@colinstone, I think that Germany still has the DSV running all aspects of snowsports but don't know of another country doing that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| Tubaski wrote: |
| AL9000 wrote: |
| It can rise again BUT only 1 wo/man/thing can fix it - that’s why they’ve banned him/her/it!! |
You're surely not suggesting that DG is the solution? |
There can be only one!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
I think the logic is back-to-front.
Just because in 1905 there was some kind of "club" of people in England who went skiing in Europe doesn't mean that's needed today.
The world is completely different from how it was in 1905. The ski business has changed out of all recognition. The travel business ditto.
Most of us could not have afforded to ski at all in 1905. It's remarkable they're still here at all, considering what they probably originally were.
There are plenty of ski clubs in Europe. There are plenty of ski clubs in the UK - most dry slopes have one.
I'd think of the SCGB more as an old aeroplane which has been patched up again and again over the years,
flying different routes as the market changed. Eventually their ship was so old that they couldn't get a competent
pilot. In any case the pilot isn't allowed in the cockpit any more as the cleaner locked himself in and is busy using
the radio to yell racist abuse at the world. He forgot to take fuel onboard, so the engines have all failed.
Many of the passengers have bailed out already. Those remaining on board are either asleep or dead, plus of course
there's still an active set of crew members busy fighting each other over their subsidized tickets for other flights.
There's only one way it's going to end. And no, I won't be buying the wreck
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
What is the USP of clubs like the Midlands ski club?
This club seems to do OK but I have no idea what they offer to attract members.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
@philwig, to be fair that's an explanation of why the current SCGB is going to crash and burn. The thread hypothesis is with a clean sheet of paper what would skiers and snowboarders mutually build if they need to build anything.
Regional clubs around a local dry or fridge slope make sense (in essence that is what the "clubby" bit of InsideOut is as well as less commercial ops) , and leveraging scale of demand across a wide population for trips also makes sense. But there is a kinda trust thing in there that gets tied up in admin and terms and conditions once you get beyond a "mates" style circle.@admin has cracked that (or at least found enough people crazy enough to have that trust which is well founded) but that's not for everyone. And then the more admin and high mantenance "members" you have the more staff you need > more overhead > more costs.
My true test with the SCGB would be open up all the walled garden - make the club free or purely nominal (say £5 commitment to show you are a real person) and see if the elements can self support.
What that would leave you with would be a highish end TO, possibly an insurance intermediary and either a network of people willing to make peer to peer social skiing and general skiing chit chat work or not. The essence of any "club" would be in the latter bit.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| stewart woodward wrote: |
| What is the USP of clubs like the Midlands ski club? |
They provide race coaching on dry slopes and snow and organize club holidays.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| pisteoff wrote: |
| Snowheads started out claiming Ski Club 2.0 - and to a large extent it is |
It still does.
Think of Snowheads as the Provisional SCGB
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| davidof wrote: |
| pisteoff wrote: |
| Snowheads started out claiming Ski Club 2.0 - and to a large extent it is |
It still does.
Think of Snowheads as the Provisional SCGB |
Nah. Snowheads is more like a cult.
Although, the SCGB has its own cu*t leader.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
Snowheads is more like a cult.
|
Are you daring to suggest our glorious leader is some kind of long-haired weirdo we surrender control and give vast sums of our money to?
Oh fudge... Koolaid anyone?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
No one has mentioned the little matter of only 90 days in a ski season to work around?
But I'm sure you don't need over inflated reps living the whole season in a resort anyway?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| Quote: |
only 90 days in a ski season
|
I think that's a fair point - maybe the first place reps should be a regular presence are at the indoor snowdomes and the major outdoor slopes, seeing that may well be the first places people first interact with snowstorms.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
If it wasn't for the SkiClubGB I probably would have stopped skiing years ago and through Freshtracks holidays made some great friends and improved my skiing. I have booked ski holidays in resorts with leaders, however only used the service occasionally.
Six years ago, I did the leaders course and was told at the interview that I would not get a slot in the first season which was fine by me. I had been recommended the course even if you didn't intend to be a leader and in my opinion that was true. As a leader, I've had two slots (Zell am Zee and Verbier) which at the time I had rented an apartment in Chamonix. So both, trips actually cost be financially so did it for the love of skiing and not for the freebie.
I do look at the club through rose tinted glasses and feel that in most years I have saved the membership by the discounts received and thought the insurance was good value.
It is with a heavy heart that the scgb is failing to attract enough new members and with the lost of leaders in resort makes it hard for me to justify the membership at the moment.
For me, I believe the club should
1. Continue the Fresktrack Holidays but with no leader. Offer a discount to a member who wants to act as an coordinator. It's a club so we do want to socialise together.
2. Offer the best Ski Insurance with Membership
3. Use technology to facilitate members to ski together.
This season, I am planning to go to Tignes (December, April) and Chamonix (January, March) independently. My experience of Chamonix, without a leader has made it difficult to meet like minded skiers and had several weeks skiing alone. Lucky I bumped into another Ski Club of GB member on the bus and that's now changed. Hopefully, a snowhead can point me in the right direction when I'm in Tignes by myself.
I feel snowheads forum can be very intimating at times however I do know several of the people on here and know that's not the case.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| Quote: |
Hopefully, a snowhead can point me in the right direction when I'm in Tignes by myself.
|
Hi Chrise - this for me is the key issue - the missing link which can be filled by a club. Even in Tignes, SCGB no longer has a good presence, no leaders, too expensive, too exclusive membership and frankly an aging image, which seems irrelevant to many. But so many british skiers looking for an opportunity to hook up, ski with like minded, share knowledge (and safe skiing) with others ... and leverage a club to get good in resort offers. Val has brilliantly self organised to fill the gap, but I suspect this may be one of the few resorts that manages this.
I've been a rep/leader for over ten years and have had great times - loved what SCGB once was and what the club and its fantastic members have given me, however this is now sadly broken - my thought experiment is this: If you start from a clean sheet, unhindered by the need to service an expensive HQ and oh too precious "sacred cows" - could you design a new club for all, which would have a thriving membership? If so what would its key features be? Free membership? Organised group skiing, with volunteer leaders? Thriving meet up facility? Events? Discounts? - Perhaps Snowheads covers all the bases?
BTW I plan to be in Tignes in December, perhaps (if I can) joining the excellent value Snowheads bash, would love to hook up to ski - hope to be able to join groups to enjoy all mountain skiing together. ... Remember that?
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| Quote: |
Val has brilliantly self organised to fill the gap, but I suspect this may be one of the few resorts that manages this.
|
Can you explain more @pisteoff?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
Can you explain more @pisteoff?
|
Val D'Isere has a self organised group which they frame as a chapter of SCGB - which typically offers 2-4 groups out skiing every day, evening get together etc. They encourage you to be a member of SCGB, but it is not an official Club offer, not least because of the nature of organised group skiing with volunteer leaders - which is a no-no for SCGB in France. (volunteer leading is perfectly legal if genuinely volunteer, but SCGB lost an important legal case so daren't do anything that looks like an official leading offer in France). The interesting challenge is can something similar occur in other resorts?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
Maybe SCGB should make Admin an offer to buy Snowheads??!!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| bobski62 wrote: |
| Quote: |
Val has brilliantly self organised to fill the gap, but I suspect this may be one of the few resorts that manages this.
|
Can you explain more @pisteoff? |
Tignes also as a locals group which includes SCGB members, past and present, and snowheads. Regular evening meetings and other social events.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
As the saying goes "there's a lot to unpack here" but the consensus is that SCGB is no longer relevant and they are the wrong people to try and make themselves relevant again.
In 1903 a bunch of posh young men met at the Café Royal and formed a club. Around the same time was the first powered flight and it was 7 years before the first talkie motion picture and even before the invention of the bra! That means the 'cinema yawn' hadn't even been invented. Things have changed somewhat but the SCGB hasn't much when you boil it all down.
Take what funds are left, pay off the staff, give what remains to a few worthy causes and move on.
It just isn't working. A question and a case in point: https://www.skiclub.co.uk/ski-club-holidays/search-results? - why on earth are there 123 holidays 'unavailable'?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| Quote: |
Tignes also as a locals group which includes SCGB members, past and present, and snowheads. Regular evening meetings and other social events.
|
My more recent experience in Tignes is that this group is far more an UK ex-pat locals group, far less SCGB, and while friendly as ever, not really for holidaymakers - is that right? - The loss of the Alpaka and an in resort rep hasn't really been replaced with a similar hub - or have I missed something? I know there is a weekly meet up as part of the ILG offer, however this seems to be more about 'selling' guided days? Please correct this impression if wrong - a healthy club hub in Tignes is one of the big losses over recent years.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| Pruman wrote: |
In 1903 a bunch of posh young men met at the Café Royal and formed a club. Around the same time was the first powered flight and it was 7 years before the first talkie motion pcture'? |
And 15 years before the first iPhone
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
I think the bluesky thinking was required many years ago when SCGB left Eaton Square. The SCGB should have gone all hands in on indoor ski slope(s) so there could be a proper club activity at its base(s). Just like a sailing club has a pond to sail on etc etc.
>It just isn't working. A question and a case in point: https://www.skiclub.co.uk/ski-club-holidays/search-results? - why on earth are there 123 holidays 'unavailable'?
I've just searched Dec 21 and got 14 unavailable. But I took the rather radical and unusual step of clicking on the pic of the Tignes Instruction 1 and got "Places available" "Book now".
Sometimes one just has to be just a little bit adventurous from the comfort of an armchair, which I know after the lockdowns can be difficult.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
I think the SkiClub website is broken today. I have just tried booking a holiday (after getting to "Places Available" as above and for every holiday it then gives dates 1 Jan -1 Jan 1 night and says "This holiday is full".
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| colinstone wrote: |
| The SCGB should have gone all hands in on indoor ski slope(s) so there could be a proper club activity at its base(s). |
Each of the indoor slopes got at least one local club as soon as they opened, a large part of their activity is teaching kids to ski at low cost, what would the SCGB offer people ?
If the SCGB offer is "skiing without kids" then they still haven't solved their age profile problem.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
There seem to be a few things which come up, which people *say* they want from a "club", with the implication that they would pay money for these things:- Insurance. This one seems insufficient to "stand alone" as a business. Like the BMC you could have a very specific niche product which precisely fits your sport and which people trust not to have stupid exclusion clauses.... but just selling some other company's product to people you're already charging a membership fee... isn't a business model which is likely to stand on its own I think. I think this has nothing much to do with "clubs".
- Travel agency. I'm not sure I really buy this as a club concept either. Maybe SH pulls that one off, because it's like someone organising a holiday for their buddies, but there are plenty of tour operators and they're run by people who know how to run a business. That's tough competition for an amateur organisation; a club would be eaten alive.
- Someone to ski/ ride with. That works for lots of European clubs already, and at least one online-only North American website I'm part of. If that's what you want. Or you could use this site to find people. But there are lots of ways to "get connected" which even unsociable people like me find it hard to avoid. I can't really see a business model here.
I guess... well I don't really get the fundamentals of a UK based "club" for an activity which doesn't happen in the UK. A sort of reverse Club Med may have worked in 1905, but times have changed.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@philwig, yep. Ski (and some other) clubs in general were a very good idea to organise themed bus tours.
These days? LoCo airlines, internet, etc.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| Quote: |
What is the USP of clubs like the Midlands ski club?
This club seems to do OK but I have no idea what they offer to attract members.
|
As membership secretary of the Midland Ski Club I feel I should answer this question. Well first of all I don’t think we are unique there are many other ski clubs scattered around the country. Western Counties Ski Club springs to mind as being similar.
What we offer is
Year round dry slope training and instruction with a strong slalom racing component. We train at two slopes in the Midlands: The Ackers Trust in Birmingham and Swadlincote Snowsport Centre. We train for 3 hours a time for 5 days a week with different groups of members.
Though we employ our professional coaches we are run on an entirely voluntary basis. We are a members club run for and by the members. We have no commercial activities and only aim to break even on all activities.
We run upto 3 winter holidays a year in the Alps and a training course to one of the big indoor slopes such as Landgraaf a year.
Though a number of our members live in far flung parts of the UK and only meet up with other club members on holidays in the Alpes most live in or around Birmingham and there are social meetings and regular walks programme.
As well as formal club holidays many members just meet up and go on holiday together.
These regular social meeting keep the club together.
Snowsport England helps with the running of ski clubs and holds a list of clubs. See https://www.snowsportengland.org.uk/clubs-facilities/ for more details
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
For me the question would be "what incentive would membership to any club give me?"
I don't need guiding around resorts, after 35 years of skiing I'm capable of reading a map.
I don't need lessons.
I don't need any assistance booking a holiday or deciding where to go.
I don't need discount codes for rental stuff etc.
All in all we (our family and friends) are more than capable of arranging all of our own holidays and associated add on pieces so I personally can't see any benefit for me,
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
