 Poster: A snowHead
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@Idris, I'm really just referring to skiing too fast in the slow zones around the bunny slopes ... which I am quite sure you would NEVER do 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Here's an interesting thought.
Making insurance compulsory on the slopes.
Seems a good idea and probably less contentious than making helmets compulsory. However, I'd bet that the insurance company would put helmets in the obligations clause.
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Except you can't insure against negligence, which is a criminal issue.
Insuring would remove the financial risk of negligent behaviour from those unable to afford to pay for the damage they cause, but that would more likely increase drunken out of control behaviour rather than reduce it, wouldn't it? Surely it's better to know that it's your wallet which will be hit if you're careless is more of a deterrent?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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It's the responsibility of the state (whatever country) to keep the people safe.
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This should not go completely unchallenged. It is the responsibility of the state to protect citizens from others who could harm them, not from themselves. Part of freedom is being free to make your own decisions, including bad or risky ones and not being forced to take the "safe option" based on a very risk averse societal view. Choices should only be legally restricted where your actions harm others. Unless head injuries in skiing are placing an unsustainable load on health services (and I am pretty sure they are tiny in terms of health service load) then why should the government interfere? Especially since it seems that non legally enforceable promotion of helmets has done the job pretty effectively as a large majority of skiers do seem to be wearing one. Can the few remaining idiots like me please be left in peace, we won't make much difference to the statistics and we don't want government to "keep us safe"
I will point out that I am not anti helmet, I agree they can reduce the risk, but the risk without one is tolerable to me for normal recreational skiing.
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@Col the Yeti, …good post…picks up and reinforces the important issues discussed at the outset of the thread…the careful checks and balances of individual action and the role of the State and legislation. I often use the example of cleaning teeth. It’s actually all been very successful. Most people clean their teeth. It has a massive impact on health (including heart health). There’s no law about it, and I wouldn’t ask for one. Seatbelts are a useful and important contrast, law there had a massive impact on road deaths - worth mandating.
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@Col the Yeti, +1
And also to the excellent post by Vallais about the dangers of over-regulating.
I'd add one other point:
SKi helmets (in my view) make a modest but worthwhile addition to the wearer's safety. However the word "modest" is important and means that the case for using the blunt force of the law to drive their use is way out of proportion to the benefits.
Ditto cycling helmets.
FWIW I nearly always wear a helmet for skiing and cycling but I don't think that people who don't are morons or should be criminalised.
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| valais2 wrote: |
@Cacciatore, …although we have discussed here the issue of the impact and demands of blanket legislation on helmets, a side excursion into helmet performance is possible….
…I’ve written here before that rotational brain injury is a key issue in cycling and skiing, and MIPS (and AIRSPIN) directly addresses the mechanisms which cause that - essentially by allowing the skull to rotate in the helmet on impact, dissipating the energy which otherwise would cause rotation of the brain within the skull (bad news).
Personally, we were early adopters of helmets off road in MTB and in skiing, and use the highest quality helmets, adjusted properly. They have prevented injury on a number of occasions. But we also see plenty of instances of very cheap, poor helmets and really badly adjusted helmets - particularly on kids, with foreheads completely exposed. Lots of good research and discussion now of effects of concussion - which now thank goodness is being seen as a serious injury…which it is…very important to avoid repeated concussion, close together.
Also I note the comments about rearward accidents. The skull is very weak at the base at the rear and the neck/skull junction very vulnerable. It’s an interesting area and very little research on this. I am sure that companies like POC would like more case study analysis and description on this.
A great innovation in safety which is worth mentioning is HANS - the brain stem separation which was occurring in Indycar and sports car racing was becoming more frequent as the energy of impacts went up…and HANS was a clear life-saver which does not impact on the nature of the sport - clear problem, clear solution, clear benefit and no significant detriment, easily implemented and enforced, and not expensive (relatively). Far more difficult to evaluate is the neck brace in DH - we have LEATT neck braces but there’s a LOT of discussion in DH about whether we should use them. Full face DH certificated helmets - yep, for sure….and I wear a full face for enduro now…. |
Something (thoughts following this post) that appears obscured, doesn't happen, not collated in any way that's publicly disclosed (unsure which) is the investigation of head injury accidents within skiing, particularly the performance of the protective equipment.
Valais2 post illustrates a clear path of findings, development, answers etc (that I'm familiar with from motorsport) but is there anything similar in skiing ?
The path from Ayrton Senna (punctured helmet from vehicle component) brought stronger shell. Michael Schumacher I believe, with Schuberth helmets, notably part of that understanding in bringing improvement. Which effectively saved Felipe Massa (stray car component imapact to helmet) although serious injury still, would likely be very different without that previous movement to improve impact resistance. To, sadly, Jules Bianchi fatality from helmet impact with "safety" vehicle unsurvivable, lead into the behavioral change of a "virtual safety car" the immediate imposition of blanket cessation of racing and speed limits imposed in reaction to circuit safety changes through accident site. Followed by earlier push for the Halo device, against in sport opposition, which lead to Roman Grojean walking away from a monumental and potentially more catastrophic accident.
Couple this with (I've been reading on Pinkbike a very long and old thread) with a debate in 2012 in the merits of wearing a dedicated bicycle helmet vs a motorcycle moto-x helmet for racing MTB downhill competition. Huge arguments in both directions, outcome of which we now know is that those competing currently are obliged to use moto-x helmets as the ultimate risk comes fully into that range.
A similar debate is often in this forum (light weight sacrificing structural integrity against impact) but with the industry seeming to offer only product self promotion and no comprehensive overview that can state what is researched as scientifically support in offering helmets focused on true protection rather than a bunch of heresay.
I may be wrong, and that it does exist.
One of the greatest irony to me is that Schumacher one in having been at the turning point of the process in his sport, but then exposed to the vagaries of the ski helmet equipment and if it could have been a different outcome given higher impact protection.
Fundamental to that is that incedent is still left to conjecture, with information hidden it seems within a virtual smokescreen for some responsibility chain to avoid liability. It may be unfeeling, also for the small child in Flaine recently, to have these events fully exhamined and published to those that can do something in response (her life is no less valuable than anyone famous that the press go nuts about) to bring a cohesive response from research and manufacturing in offering solutions.
If they can't sort that lot out, why would anyone welcome legislative control.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@ski3, good post.
Just checking one thing: current DH helmet standard is ASTM F1952 and you have to show the certification in competition. I believe (though stand to be corrected) that no MX helmet currently carries that standard - we use Bell Super DH in the main, but recommend Fox Rampage as alternative. But if there’s been a change do let me know…
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Bones, actually that one would be quite easy to enforce - ‘green card’ supplied by insurance company - would need to be shown if you buy lift ticket - would need at minimum to be valid for duration of pass - issue with annual passes, but egates could be alerted to expiry date of insurance. If no insurance, lift co sells cheap day insurance. Pain in the proverbial for lift queues but there you go….
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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valais2, true, but becomes more complicated with day tickets, online sales, 3rd party co. selling tickets. You can input an 'insurance card' number but they all need access to the data base. Which will need to be funded. Then theres the different countries that will be involved. Not unsolvable but for a niche pastime ?
Might as well make us all have insurance to live, that covers everything. Or we could take personal repsonsibilty, try and mitigate situations where we would need it.
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@Bones, ...I think that's exactly right...the death of that poor girl in Flaine appears avoidable and it sounds as if a lack of personal responsibility was a contributing factor.
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You know it makes sense.
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| valais2 wrote: |
@ski3, good post.
Just checking one thing: current DH helmet standard is ASTM F1952 and you have to show the certification in competition. I believe (though stand to be corrected) that no MX helmet currently carries that standard - we use Bell Super DH in the main, but recommend Fox Rampage as alternative. But if there’s been a change do let me know… |
I'm commenting from past moto-x experience, me. Also son who is interested in competing DH but not currently doing that. So not currently fully up to speed with exact specs. The view was from past Pinkbike thread in which each side is so adamant they're right, often with very flawed logic.
Interestingly, and because of topography etc, moto-x may expose riders to less hard and jagged terrain than some of the MTB DH courses. Well certainly my perception with racing on essentially non rocky mx courses.
It hasn't, MX , generally had significant observable head injury problems though, perhaps through circumstances or always having use basically non puncture shell within reasonable boundaries.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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It doesn't appear that ski helmets have much lateral thinking judging by these incidents anyway. Harsh, but I can't see significant shift.
Mips, certainly for one type of injury, but more or less a polly bag between your scalp and the shell and given sn acronym to make it saleable and bring more margin to manufacturers. Cynical yes, but without statistics to prove it, what has changed. Was that the principal risk we didn't know we had ?
Maybe looking for "helmet" solution for children clouds the inventive outlook of design and production.
If a soft, as in boxing head protection type construction, designed in a shape suitable for snow sports with a strap system that was effectively like one of those old string shopping bags (covering the whole exterior) and linking to conventional neck arrangement, plus a long tail down the vertebra (a little like those security money delivery helmets) to cover that area, and all covered with a material woven in something akin to ptfe to make, in effect, an external mips by stopping the item being pulled into rotation in the first place......make a fundamental protection device for those catastrophic impacts of person to person.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@ski3, note that rotational brain injury refers to the damage which occurs when the brain rotates inside the skull. Brain tissue is very resilient in compression (think impact injury) and very weak in shear - think a pack of cards banged vertically on the table. Nothing much happens. Shift that to 45 deg and the cards all move against each other. That’s a good analogy for what happens when the brain rotates in the skull. Older style cycles helmets worsened rotational injuries since they ‘grabbed’ on the ground. The thin plastic shell on current helmets is not there to protect against impact, it’s there to help the helmet slide when you hit the ground. That’s all considered very carefully in the design of road and racing helmets in motor cycle sports. MIPS simply works to allow more rotation of the head inside the helmet, thus less of a peak of energy transfer to the skull, therefore less internal rotation of the brain. It’s a bit like trying to flatten the peak of the corona infection, not to reduce the total incidence of corona infections, but just to avoid the peak.
We took a lot of advice from guide and coaching friends, and used with both the Grom and Gromette, from age 3, very lightweight back protectors in a vest (POC) and they just adapted instantly to wearing them, plus high quality helmets. And they were important in more than one instance of them being hit by people.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I have a ski helmet, I wore it for about 2 hrs, hated it 100%, took it off & it was tied to my back pack for the rest of the day. The only time I have worn it since has been at a fridge where they made it compulsory to ski their mogul run, such a pain in the butt having to put it on to ski down then taking it off at the bottom to let my head cool down & before anyone says, the helmet I have has more ventilation than most that I have seen.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@tangowaggon, ...we conditioned ourselves to helmets a long time ago, and there is definitely a 'coffee-drinking' syndrome...first taste..'This is hideous....WFFFAH....'. but after two months and by the tenth cup it begins to have a certain something, and then after another month you can't do without it. I now just feel WEIRD on my mountain bike and when skiing without a helmet. It's not that I feel unsafe...I just feel weird. And we had to go to full face helmets for DH...and that felt TERRIBLE for the first month. Now, it feels weird when I wear a normal helmet. If deep down you want to be a helmet wearer, or your partner is giving you hell, then you'll go through the first phase and it will take time. But then it will be fine. And if you wear a hat to keep warm when you ski, may as well make that a helmet.
I had the same thing with goggles, years back. I used to wear sunglasses and only go to goggles in snow or poor light. Then - mainly to protect my eyes from UV, since I was doing a lot of high altitude stuff - I started wearing goggles all the time. I seriously now completely forget that I have them on, it's become so natural. I had to wear some at MK the other day since I again just felt weird without them. Only person there with goggles, but WTH.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| valais2 wrote: |
It’s a bit like trying to flatten the peak of the corona infection, not to reduce the total incidence of corona infections, but just to avoid the peak.
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It's not like that - even a little bit.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@red 27, ...why not? It's an analogy. You have a set amount of energy to dissipate, and if it happens as a sudden peak of dissipation through very sudden deceleration of the skull, then the inertia in the brain will cause it to rotate in the skull. And that's when the damage occurs. If you decrease the rate of deceleration in the skull by having a slip layer in the helmet, the skull decelerates more gradually, and the brain is less prone to rotation inside the skull. You have a set amount of energy in the system, and you have either concentrate that as a peak of interaction between the skull and brain, or have each element of the system with less relative motion. If you still feel it's a poor analogy that's fine...the mechanism of injury is well understood and researched, it's just that it means I have explained it poorly.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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And if you wear a hat to keep warm when you ski, may as well make that a helmet.
I never wear a hat when skiing or at any other time, if it gets cold I use my hood, held in place with the goggle strap & really hate having to put goggles on when it gets cold or snowy, the concept of wearing a helmet & goggles on a warm spring day is completely preposterous to me.
2-3'c+ = wraparound sunglasses only.
Getting colder, sunglasses & headband to keep ears & forehead warm, but allowing the rest of my head to keep cool.
Colder still, goggles & headband
< -5'c and /or snowing, hood up (I ripped the insulation out of my jacket hood because it was too hot, even at -15'c) face covering and hood held in place by goggles.
I wear a crash helmet on my motorbike and it has saved me from injury a few times, one such time was doing a wheely on my trials bike & I fell off the back onto a tarmac road, banged my head & fractured my wrist.
Would I have been doing a wheely without my helmet on? No, wearing a helmet that day caused a broken wrist.
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@tangowaggon, ...and that's the joy of personal choice....
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@valais2, certainly I understand the various elements of helmet function. Probably my inability to articulate what I'm thinking in representing that as written here.
I get the brain rotation as much like trying to spin an egg in the inertia etc and effect it has on yolk, albumen vs also trying to protect the shell from being compromised. Each element having a different sensitivity to the variables during acceleration, arrest direction change and blunt impact. Quite a challenge, and one someone mentioned on here a few years ago by quoting a neurosurgeon "tell me which type of accident you're going to have, then I'll tell you what protection to use" which I felt summed it up.
What I'm trying to get to is, does our current "system" based on existing helmet convention blind side research by holding it so constrained within that conventional thought channel ?
Or, given carte blanche, could something as I've described outperform that in reality, however odd that description may seem.
Along the lines of a competition once shown on tv that required the participants to fire a raw egg with certain force over a distance and to land without damage to that egg. Free choice of materials.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| valais2 wrote: |
| @tangowaggon, ...and that's the joy of personal choice.... |
Exactly, that's why I get very vitriolic towards those who propose compulsory helmets with the usual "I don't even notice that it's there " comments
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@tangowaggon, I'm the same on the subject and don't wear one skiing.
I just love skiing without having to wear one, that's the essence of it for me. No rational supporting evidence to offer and argue the point from me.
Always ridden a motorcycle since 16 yrs of age, never bought an open face, spent whatever needed to get the make and quality I wanted to use, but welcome the freedom of not spending time wearing one out in that environment if I have the choice while in the mountains.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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It's not just the freedom of choice for me, for me, if skiing without a helmet or hat on is like sex with a stunning nymphomaniac, skiing with a helmet is like a w@nk from Anne Widdecombe.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| valais2 wrote: |
@tangowaggon, ...we conditioned ourselves to helmets a long time ago, and there is definitely a 'coffee-drinking' syndrome...first taste..'This is hideous....WFFFAH....'. but after two months and by the tenth cup it begins to have a certain something, and then after another month you can't do without it. I now just feel WEIRD on my mountain bike and when skiing without a helmet. It's not that I feel unsafe...I just feel weird. And we had to go to full face helmets for DH...and that felt TERRIBLE for the first month. Now, it feels weird when I wear a normal helmet. If deep down you want to be a helmet wearer, or your partner is giving you hell, then you'll go through the first phase and it will take time. But then it will be fine. And if you wear a hat to keep warm when you ski, may as well make that a helmet.
I had the same thing with goggles, years back. I used to wear sunglasses and only go to goggles in snow or poor light. Then - mainly to protect my eyes from UV, since I was doing a lot of high altitude stuff - I started wearing goggles all the time. I seriously now completely forget that I have them on, it's become so natural. I had to wear some at MK the other day since I again just felt weird without them. Only person there with goggles, but WTH. |
Similar story to me.
I road biked for fitness for years without a helmet, despite concerned nagging from loved ones. Only buying one when Which? gave a great review of a Specialised helmet circa 10 years ago. Now I feel exposed when not wearing it.
With skiing, I spent countless holidays and a few ski clinics without a helmet. They seemed the preserve of kids, serious off piste skiers and the piste skiing ‘types’ who also carry round with them all day packed backpacks full of gear. I loved skiing with the minimum of clobber. Only getting a helmet when compelled to on a clinic in Tignes. I’ve happily worn it ever since.
With ski goggles I now wear them all the time. A quality pair sold to me in St Anton that give incredible definition of the coming bumps and churned up afternoon messy slopes. Before that I wore sunglasses in bright weather to maximise the tan …. how shallow 
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| king key wrote: |
| I am quite happy wearing a skid lid, I wear it willingly as it also keeps my head and ears warmer + holds earphones for music and have no issue about it. My son however is 28 and is very anti-compulsory wearing of them for adults stating it's just another nannying of the state and you should be able to decide for yourself. He's off to France in March and has no intention of wearing one. Whilst I'd rather he did wear one, I respect it's his choice and don't nag him. |
Almost the worst thing to do. You need to be able to hear everything that's going on around you while sliding down slopes. Leave the music to the ski videos.
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You know it makes sense.
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| joffy69 wrote: |
| king key wrote: |
| I am quite happy wearing a skid lid, I wear it willingly as it also keeps my head and ears warmer + holds earphones for music and have no issue about it. My son however is 28 and is very anti-compulsory wearing of them for adults stating it's just another nannying of the state and you should be able to decide for yourself. He's off to France in March and has no intention of wearing one. Whilst I'd rather he did wear one, I respect it's his choice and don't nag him. |
Almost the worst thing to do. You need to be able to hear everything that's going on around you while sliding down slopes. Leave the music to the ski videos. |
++1 I was once sliding slowly towards a friend sat at the side of the piste when I heard the sound of a skier approaching at high speed, no time to actually look in the direction, I stopped half a metre short of my friend as the approaching skier used that half metre as his only route past us at very high speed. It would be interesting to see the effect on all injury statistics if helmets were banned altogether.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| tangowaggon wrote: |
++1 I was once sliding slowly towards a friend sat at the side of the piste when I heard the sound of a skier approaching at high speed, no time to actually look in the direction, I stopped half a metre short of my friend as the approaching skier used that half metre as his only route past us at very high speed. It would be interesting to see the effect on all injury statistics if helmets were banned altogether. |
Is there any hard evidence that people hear worse in ski helmets than wearing hats, headbands or anything else which covers the ears? My helmets (I own several since I used to race) have quite a lot of space around the ears and lots of small holes to let sound in. I think I can hear almost as well with one on as off. Given that it's cold and windy when skiing almost everybody is going to be covering their ears with something. Maybe on a warm spring day that might not be totally true, but for most of the season you don't see many bare heads.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| jedster wrote: |
@Col the Yeti, +1
And also to the excellent post by Vallais about the dangers of over-regulating.
I'd add one other point:
SKi helmets (in my view) make a modest but worthwhile addition to the wearer's safety. However the word "modest" is important and means that the case for using the blunt force of the law to drive their use is way out of proportion to the benefits.
Ditto cycling helmets.
FWIW I nearly always wear a helmet for skiing and cycling but I don't think that people who don't are morons or should be criminalised. |
Same here, wore an helmet for years and Kids also were given no choice. But like most things the ability to assess one's own circumstances and make a decision based on that is what it should be about.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| hyperkub wrote: |
| tangowaggon wrote: |
++1 I was once sliding slowly towards a friend sat at the side of the piste when I heard the sound of a skier approaching at high speed, no time to actually look in the direction, I stopped half a metre short of my friend as the approaching skier used that half metre as his only route past us at very high speed. It would be interesting to see the effect on all injury statistics if helmets were banned altogether. |
Is there any hard evidence that people hear worse in ski helmets than wearing hats, headbands or anything else which covers the ears? My helmets (I own several since I used to race) have quite a lot of space around the ears and lots of small holes to let sound in. I think I can hear almost as well with one on as off. Given that it's cold and windy when skiing almost everybody is going to be covering their ears with something. Maybe on a warm spring day that might not be totally true, but for most of the season you don't see many bare heads. |
One of the things I hated about the helmet that I bought was how I felt so isolated from my surroundings from a sensory point of view, things improved greatly when I took a sharp knife & cut holes in the non removable ear covers, my knitted headband works like the wolly microphone covers, it stops the cold blazt of wind but allows sound to penetrate easily
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Very interesting. A common theme which comes across in this thread is that modern well designed helmets are light years better than a poor one in many respects. I have both POC and Head racing helmets. They are really comfortable and I don't seem to suffer any of the drawbacks people mention of helmet use, apart from the sartorial aspect of course, but I don't care about looks. A good helmet is expensive (although still small beer in terms of what most people spend skiing) but it seems you get what you pay for.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Number 2 daughter, snowboarder, lost the board from under her on some ice and landed on back and head, helmet found the rock hiding under the surface, rock made hole in hard shell of helmet. Pretty sure that one prevented an injury!
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Didnt read it all, but the first part conclusion was interesting. 
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I read through it. The main (very sumnarised) conclusion is that head injury rates have not changed that much despite helmet usage increasing, but that head injury severity has gone down significantly. I think that figures, you see a very similar effect with passive safety system in cars. People still get injuries like whiplash in medium force collisions but they are less likely to get life threatening injuries.
This kind of resesrch is of course difficult to do, because various other factors will have changed simultaneously. For example we are much more concious of the risks of a concussion injury and reporting of that type of injury is likely to have risen as a result. Even 10 years ago nobody bothered much about a minor concussion in any sport.
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FAQ
