 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi all...
Off to Les Arcs next week (fingers crossed for avoiding the lurgy). One of the things I want to get a bit happier with is having my skis off the deck - not in a hucking off cliffs or hitting the park kind of way, but more for a little drop on rejoining a piste, or being able to flow across undulating terrain by doubling up over crests. I'm a pretty decent mountainbiker and one of the keys to riding fast over difficult ground is being able to hop and pop off and over obstacles and I'd like to head my skiing that way too. Currently its all very wooden and dead sailorish.
So I've watched some youtube and insta vids and they all say to start off that the basic technique for popping is basically a standing jump. Squat, pop up, there we go - airtime. Now in a gym setting I can get comfortably over a couple of ft from a standing jump and I can bunnyhop an mtb 18"+. Trying it in ski boots gets me about 3", and we went to the fridge for a warm up session yesterday and I can barely get a rizla paper under the middle of the skis at full pop.
I think a large part of the problem is that I can't squat properly to drive up again because there's so little flex in the boots. Normally squatting in street shoes would keep me balanced over my feet with knees going forwards. That ain't happening. I'd basically have to sit back like I was flopping into a chair (ie backseating myself) then try and lever myself forward again at high speed (horrible on the knees). The same to absorb on landing, which feels like a recipe for loss of control and disaster.
I've got my own boots (Salomon QSTs) a couple of years back, which are great compared to rental ones, but I'm wondering if at 120 rating they're a bit on the stiff side for my 65kg? The justification at the time was that my ankle flexibility was poor, so the boot stiffness was slightly irrelevant and the QSTs were the only option to fit my (apparently hilariously) high arches. The relatively high boot stiffness is something that's been picked up in lessons on the piste too.
A quick resume - I'm mid-late 40s, pretty fit/active, but relative late comer to skiing - I've done 5 weeks so far. Pushy intermediate would be a good description - the crossover from MTBing is huge. Can ski anything pisted*; enjoy the "Natur" pistes for the challenge of reading the line and was starting to get my head round tree runs at the beginning of 2020. Want to spend more time off piste, and ultimately aim to tour/backcountry away from the lifts
Tips/tricks/thoughts?
Thank you!
*my so called mates took me down the Hannenkamm to celebrate my 10th day on planks. I survived; it was educational... 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Snowboard and MTB instructor here, with very little interest in skiing. However, similar principles apply.
Almost without fail, the main reason for being unable to pop on either a snowboard or a bike is poor posture or positioning. In this case, it sounds like you're sitting back on the skis.
The boots may be stiff, but they'll still flex. 120 flex is on the stiffer side for an amateur skier, but millions of skiers of all shapes and sizes pop jumps using boots as stiff or stiffer. You need to drive hard into them dynamically, not just statically flex them.
The issue is almost certainly technique, not equipment.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
| The issue is almost certainly technique, not equipment. |
I'm 98% in agreement with that...!
...however...
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| You need to drive hard into them dynamically |
How do I do that? (sounds stupid I know)
When I'm pushing up from the squat, I'm using leg power to push my feet into the floor. Net reaction - torso goes upwards. Hurrah. The deeper I squat, the bigger the return movement is and the harder I push, the faster I go.
How do I drive down into the squat first? I've got nothing to push against to load the movement and therefore flex the boot!
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| it sounds like you're sitting back on the skis. |
At the moment skis aren't even involved. I want to be able to do a decent standing jump in just the boots before I attempt it with any added complications.
I've just been playing around in the kitchen again. With the boots on, I can - dropping into them as hard as I'm able - move my knees maybe an inch forward from a neutral stance. In trainers, it's more like 4", and as I pop back up again I'm driving off the ground from the balls of my feet and toes, so my calves are providing a lot of the power and my feet are fully pointed as they leave the ground - which again isn't happening in the ski boots.
(There's also a head-games thing here - I'm generally unable to do something until I understand exactly how it works. Once I'm mentally confident about the process, the physical side generally follows pretty easily. Don't ask how long it took me to figure out american bunnyhops on the bike)
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Ski off progressively larger bumps. The height will take care of itself 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@CoticJon, if you can jump in the gym and not on skis then I strongly agree with @stevomcd, that you'll be sitting back.
I actually did this drill on my instructor course with the instructor! Had him lean well back in his boots and he could hardly jump the skis off the ground, had him lean WAYY too far forwards, same thing. Then had him nice and centered and he could do a decent jump and soften the landing with an absorption.
So also sounds like you are going too far forwards in your kitchen in the boots. You have 3 joints to flex when skiing, ankles, knees and hips. Try flexing all 3 and get into a goalkeeper waiting to save a penalty kind of position then try it!
If you are in your kitchen you could unclip your boots completely *but* still try and stay centered to get those 3 joints flexed, that might help get the feeling of the right joints flexing?
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| CoticJon wrote: |
I've just been playing around in the kitchen again. With the boots on, I can - dropping into them as hard as I'm able - move my knees maybe an inch forward from a neutral stance |
Have you tried it with skis on (on lawn or carpet)? I wonder if you'll be able to flex the boots much harder with the front of the skis to lean on?
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I am an elderly, rather cautious, unathletic, unfit, skier. Whilst doing some lessons with easiski in Les Deux Alpes, she had us traversing the slope whilst hopping the back of the skies, and the front, and alternating the two - back and front. We did all get knackered and huffed and puffed, but we did it. Can't remember quite why, now....... Can you do that, @CoticJon? I remember being irritated by a ski instructor who would stand facing us, talking to us, skis together and parallel, and then just jump through 180 degrees, apparently without effort, ready to ski off. So easy... 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Doh - I hadn’t spotted that second response was from @stevomcd. I think we have a bunch of mutual acquaintances. (I guided briefly for one of the other mtb holiday companies in the area)
@twoodwar - that’s what I’ve largely been doing so far. However delicacy, style and smoothness are notably absent, and there’s a high chance of me going off something too high and too slow and simply lawn-darting.
@kitenski - completely agree that we have mobility in hips, knees and ankle, but we (I?) use all three together. With my ankles all but locked out, that compromises my range of movement in knees and hips, whilst still trying to remain in balance over the balls of my feet. The goalkeeper position is not far off the default position the boots leave me in.
(In trainers or barefoot I can comfortably hold a full ass-to-grass deep squat. In boots I can’t get below thighs horizontal without toppling over backwards)
@kerb - I don’t have skis, so that’s a bit difficult at the mo! Whilst I can see having skis on stops me overbalancing forwards or backwards, I’m still not sure how to generate any meaningful “dynamic” downforce.
@pam_w sounds like it would be a good start learning how to olly (aka American bunnyhop in bike language) . That’s the next job once I can do a simple pop competently. Again - without skis, difficult to try! Feels like it should be the same motion but in different directions.
I’m absolutely sure, that as is my wont, I’m overthinking this - but it’s what I do…
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@CoticJon, I can see that this might be useful in Skier Cross competitions but not for normal skiing.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@CoticJon, you ride wharny?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Mother_hucker. Yup - on occasion. Other side of town for me, so its a bit of a trek to get to. Blacka's my local.
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@CoticJon, style and smoothness when jumping is sadly not on my agenda. Survival is where I’m at
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You know it makes sense.
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Not into MTB, But I ski and board (quite a lot).
I had a few park lessons (snowboard, but think the same principle applies on skis).
It's all about the setup, as this is the pre-cursor for execution.
If you go too fast, almost certainly your weight will get thrown backwards on the ramp.
What we learnt was to check our approach speed so that you're nicely balanced and centered, sink down slowly as you approach, then extend up dynamically through the legs, keeping the upper body fairly quiet, and your head looking up and straight ahead.
My board boots are rated 8/10 for stiffness, and my skiboots have "adjustable" flex but I have never moved it from the stiffest setting.
As others have said, practising ollies and nollies on the flat is a good start.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
What we learnt was to check our approach speed so that you're nicely balanced and centered, sink down slowly as you approach, then extend up dynamically through the legs, keeping the upper body fairly quiet, and your head looking up and straight ahead.
My board boots are rated 8/10 for stiffness, and my skiboots have "adjustable" flex but I have never moved it from the stiffest setting.
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Certainly on a stiff setup where you're not trying to preload the board and use it as a spring. Also don't forget to bring your legs up after the pop for height, while keeping your bases parallel to the ground. Lower your legs back down to meet the ground and absorb the landing
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Those stompittutorials ^^ were where I was attempting to start from (or at least this insta version https://www.instagram.com/p/CYg0_OHhoX8/ ). Having just rewatched that vid - at 1.12 ish - I'd say he's fully back-seated then. Centre of gravity is well behind his heels, and he'd be flat on his ass without the skis on. Probably why I'm having issues.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Only learning to ski in my 30s, I do remember finding getting any height when popping more difficult than I expected. I think that the restriction that boots place on ankle movement necessitate changes to the jumping motion compared to a normal jumping motion (eg differing amounts of rotation in ankles, knees and hips) and that while learning this new motion, recruitment is inefficient, so it feels like you don't get much out for the effort put in.
Something else worth exploring is whether your boots have enough forward lean (the forward angle of the upper shell of the ski boot) for you. This is crucial to staying in balance over the centre of your skis while moving through the full range of motion. The right amount of forward lean for an individual depends on things like calf diameter and leg bone lengths/ratios. You also need to factor in any binding delta (the difference in height between the toe and heel of the binding - many bindings place the heel higher than the toe). If you've got enough forward lean, you should be able to squat to thighs parallel to the ground and stay in balance over the centre of your skis. Insufficient forward lean will make it very difficult to flex the boot as you can't sag into the boot enough with your weight.
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