 Poster: A snowHead
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What’s the difference between a hand iron wax vs a machine wax (other than one using an iron obviously)? Ski shop charges more for a hand iron wax and I’m just wondering if it’s better or if I would be able to tell the difference?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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If you DIY you can take the time to get the ski hot enough to absorb more wax. Which means it will last longer.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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When I hired skis 2 weeks ago, the hire shop had a saucepan of wax with kettle element in the bottom, and a fat roller protruding above the top. Simply roll the ski across the top and it gets a coating. How good it is I don’t know. I say this as I don’t know if it’s a machine, a hand iron, or something in between. I don’t think the skis were preheated though.
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both finishes should be good out of the shop but hand waxing gets the bases warmer and they then take in more wax and last a day or two longer. neither is great without a base clean/grind to get the dirt of the base and allow the base to drawn in the wax
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Orange200 ...its like hand painting a high value car with a fence paint brush and bucket of cold paint.
No wonder the op smells snake oil and is asking.
I very likely wouldnt even use the shop offering it because its sounds like its all about mugs and money on holiday during high season .
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On sintered bases - maybe.
On extruded bases - probably not. In average to warmer conditions I find a courser structure makes more difference than a good wax for extruded.
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I can't imagine many of us could tell the difference, once the skis were on our feet. I certainly couldn't.
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When I was using kit supplied to me by spyderjon I found I was going longer on a flat ski out than my companions. Once I started leaving my skis out at Les Deux Alpes I switched to getting the skis waxed by one of two highly reputable shops - also with good results.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Charge more as it takes more time. Structure and setup more of an impact than wax, machine would be fine.
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| both finishes should be good out of the shop but hand waxing gets the bases warmer and they then take in more wax and last a day or two longer. neither is great without a base clean/grind to get the dirt of the base and allow the base to drawn in the wax |
That's not really true. On well maintained skis, which means regularly waxed, there's no need for clean/grinding. But if someone is planning to wax skis once a month or even once a year, then honestly, it's waste of time and money to even bother with that. Waxes last for about 50km, depending on wax and snow conditions (can be as little as 2 or 3km for certain fluoro overlays, or can be a bit around 70 or 80km in ideal conditions and proper preparation), but there's pretty much no way wax will last 2 or 3 days of skiing, even less week or month. As soon as wax is gone, ptex starts to pick up dirt, and if you let it do this for whole season, then yes, in best case new grind will help in most cases, even grinding won't help, that's why I wrote that about waste of time/money.
As for hand vs. machine goes, with machine you let ski through and it's done. Few seconds of work and it's done. With hand iron, it takes longer, that's why shops charge more for that. Otherwise yes, doing it by hand produces better results, but without a little bit of feeling and experience, there's also more chances to burn ptex 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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This is a post from reddit that makes sense to me:
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| Belt waxing is like a more thorough “rub on” wax. There is a soft belt that runs on a loop. Wax is applied to the belt, and then your board is ran across the belt against a roller. The friction of the belt applies a layer of wax onto the surface of your board. The reason that it doesn’t last long is because it’s not melted. Think like a crayon on paper. It’s just a little coating of wax on the surface, which the snow rubs off when you ride down. Hot wax is a process of melting wax onto your snowboard base and letting it sit so that the moisture from the wax permeates the base material and impregnates it. |
So in short - a hand iron wax will last longer. Actually I think that's what andy'n'netty said so just backs that up really.
Also a short SH thread on the same subject.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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If they can make money out of it they'll produce it 
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You know it makes sense.
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Wax on the base of skis is an adhesion film - all this talk about bases 'absorbing' wax through heating or 'pores' is complete tosh.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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How is the Sintered base made?
To make a Sintered base the same polyethylene pellets are used as for the Extruded base but there is one fundemental difference in the process. The pellets are not melted together. Instead they are crushed together under great force. To the naked eye you would not be able to see much of a difference but the make up of the base is completely different. With sintering the pellets are not fused together as closely and under a microscope you would find tiny gaps or pores between them. This means that the finished base is porous and more capable of retaining wax. The whole process is more expensive but it will produce a higher quality
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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That said I read elsewhere that "Wax only penetrates a very small amount into the base, about 15 microns and only where random voids exist. 15 microns is a very small measurement (1% or so of base thickness~15 to 20 microns is about 0.0006 to 0.0008 inch)." but no idea how true that is or if it takes into account the two different base types.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
that must be why every wax manufacturer produces a wax remover/base cleaner, someone better tell them that they're wasting their time
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They are not wasting THEIR time. They are making money out of it. There are whole industries based on selling things that do nothing. The best example is perhaps Peckham Spring Water. It is still for sale at £3.99 a bottle, but you have to fill it yourself. Though I am led to beleive that Coke Cola lost a lot of money when they tried to copy Delboy.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Dunno what the ski market is like at the moment, but snowboards are getting more and more into the whole 3D base thing - so as well as the length profile, you have a width profile (Bataleons TBT and K2 Heel Toe Camber etc), and those don't play well with machines - waxes and particularly grinds.
As for cleaning, it's normally a generic citric acid based cleaner that most rebrand as their own secret sauce, but a good hot scrape will work just as well if not better.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| andy'n'netty wrote: |
@primoz, "That's not really true"
that must be why every wax manufacturer produces a wax remover/base cleaner, someone better tell them that they're wasting their time, better let the ski shops know they can stop base grinding as well, I'm sure they'd be happy to hear that they can save themselves the time and effort  |
Wax remover have their place, but it's not really like what you think they are. There are two sorts of them. One is plain simple wax remover, which is normally used to clean xc skis from kick wax, and to clean ptex if skis were skied on really really dirty surface (late spring snow with whole bunch of dirty from polution or tree stuff). Problem with this is, it "dries" surface, so bunch of performance gain with numerous wax cycles is lost. Other is fluro cleaner, which is used to occasionally clean ptex after every day fluoro overlay's use. None of them should be used on daily basis before waxing (unless it's used to clean kick pocket of xc skis).
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| andy'n'netty wrote: |
| ... that must be why every wax manufacturer produces a wax remover/base cleaner, someone better tell them that they're wasting their time, better let the ski shops know they can stop base grinding as well, I'm sure they'd be happy to hear that they can save themselves the time and effort |
Many of us use board wax remover prior to making repairs.
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My OH, after we made a visit to spyderjon's, was waxing skis on the terrace of our apartment in France. Our delightful French neighbour (who grew up near Lyon, had skied all her life and was an excellent skier) was interested in what he was doing and asked "Do you do that every year?". She was astonished when he said he intended to do it every week. Our French neighbours generally had ski lockers full of a motley collection of tatty old skis on which they could have skied rings round the average British skier.
Professional ski preparation (especially for XC, as primoz indicates) is a highly skilled and specialist business. Most of us would probably be better off booking a private lesson or two and improving our basic technique.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@pam w, There will be plenty of people in Les Saisies who do it every day.
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The base of the ski is still HDPE or UHMWPE whether its extruded or compressed (sintered) - the idea that the base is some sort of sponge that can absorb (and presumably release?) wax doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Wax is applied as an adhesion film and it wears off the base through friction with ice and the wear is accelerated if the ice is dirty (dust and other contaminants).
The base of the ski under the microscope has ridges and valleys as a consequence of the manufacturing process and damage due to contact with snow etc. The wax fills in the valleys leading to a smoother slippier surface but it wears off through time and needs re-applied. Theres a separate argument on whether scraping off the 'excess' wax with a scraper is better than just smoothing it over and leaving a thicker coating of wax - so it takes longer to wear it off.
With a sintered base then there may be bigger 'pits' between the UHMWPE molecules on the base surface - but melting wax which has a lower melting point than the polyethylene and dripping it onto the base is not going to force wax between the molecules. It will just fill any pits the same way it fills gouges and the normal valleys.
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