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Austria in Crisis... Lockdown... Ski Season in doubt..

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
snowhound wrote:
@rob@rar, This is the first time taking a vaccine in many countries has been required to access pretty much anything required for day to day life.
Yes, that’s right. But this is also the first time we have had a global health crisis with this level of threat to day to day life. We have often been in uncharted territory, with necessary decisions that nobody really wanted to take.
Quote:
I am a teacher-young people have been hit far harder by those political decisions than by covid itself.
Yes, I agree. But if measures to control Covid had not been taken, the impact on young people and everyone else would have been far, far worse. If vaccination rates were higher I think we would be able to roll back restrictions and address the problems caused more quickly than we are managing now.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
The unvaccinated pose a threat because vaccination relies absolutely on a certain - usually very high - proportion of the population being fully vaccinated, quickly. Otherwise, it just doesn't work. You can get to the same end-point 'naturally' but if you do, you'll get far higher number of deaths and the whole process will take much longer and put a much higher load on the healthcare service overall and produce a greater economic fallout.

Vaccine hesitancy is a reasonable position and there are many legitimate reasons why someone might opt not to be vaccinated, as an individual choice. The problem is that in a Pandemic, it is counter to the epidemiology, where countermeasures rely on high levels of immunisation, done quickly. In this case, a small shortfall in vaccination or booster levels, or a delay, can negate the whole exercise and render wasted all the personal and economic sacrifices.

So the discussion inevitably gets polarised as time goes on. And particularly fraught around the point where a very small minority of recusants threaten to negate the whole programme of countermeasures and put us back at square one, or at best, bring on yet another - avoidable - cycle of lockdown and its economic, social and educational fallout.

But other than through continued dialogue, I don't see what the alternatives are, as a mandatory vaccination strategy is likely to be counterproductive and ineffective.


Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Mon 22-11-21 20:57; edited 3 times in total
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@NE1, yes I have seen how many tests are done and it is insignificant compared with here. Fot a lot of the pandemic the uk has only tested symptomatic people, it was the only way you could get a test in yhe early days.
All school age kids 5+ tested twice weekly so nearly twice as many
All teachers, care staff etc tested ok same.
All welders, carpenters, builders, factory workers etc i.e everyone who works other than by themselves who is unvaccinated 3 tests per week.
Maybe I should have said the UK is testing a higher proportion of symptomatic people, note this is based on a quote in the ONS or whatever it was survey quoted earlier. I am not criticising either method just saying you can't compare them as they are not like for like. I you look at Our World in Data you will see Austria has consistently had the lowest positivity rate in Europe.


Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Mon 22-11-21 20:47; edited 1 time in total
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@Timmycb5,

"if you get a nutter in government."

Err.....Timmycb5 meet Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson... Toofy Grin
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Mr.Egg wrote:
DanishRider wrote:
terrygasson wrote:
@rob@rar,
Quote:

Is Stanton still an anti-vaxxer?


his taxi has probably been fitted with a Perspex shield, and all contactless payments, along with skinning up the mountains.

isn't ski lifts only for "fat Eeeeeenglish", he has no need for contact with any other human beings Toofy Grin Toofy Grin Toofy Grin Toofy Grin


When seeing statements like this, I lose faith in humanity. Are grown ups really treating each other this was? So it is perfectly okay to ridicule people with other opinions than their own ?

Honestly (Yes I have had two shots of the Pfizer, so by far not against vaccines), this behaviour would never be accepted between kids, and I can’t understand that any grown ups would tolerate it between adults!


You should read the brexit thread.
A growing element of society wont accept that people have different opinions - to the point (& quite a few have said so in various threads) that they ended friendships with people because of differences. People get united for a beer & then divided once the conversation turns to religion & politics.


I am aware of his alternative way of behaving, but i was brought up to not sink to a level I myself can’t justify. I believe that there should be room for different opinions, and I do not need to respond in a abusive way. This is just my way of saying: We are adults here, and most of us live in the free world, so maybe we can all just ignore abusing other people, and respect their opinion no matter how much we disagree.
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@rob@rar, I'm glad we agree on something but will have to disagree on everything else. I think we are coming from different starting points of the argument about the threat of covid and what was necessary given how discriminatory it is towards those people who are already at most risk to every other infection in circulation.
Closing schools was an absolute disgrace-and I say this as a teacher (private). Children were never at risk of covid. My school's (and those of my children) have had god knows how many covid positives, they've all bounced back quickly.
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
snowhound wrote:
Children were never at risk of covid.
Covid was (and is) a threat to all of society, in one way or another. I don't think we can ring-fence those who are at significant risk and those who are at minimal risk. The virus doesn't work that way.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
I did not realise that this forum had its own group of people who are experts in disease control and statistics. Just take the Vaccine and listen to the health professional where a mask, wash your hands and maintain social distance when ever possible. It is lot easier than strapping planks to your feet and sliding down a hill and probably less hazardous. As some who has worked in Government a long time please be assured that conspiracies do not happen because it would require politicians to think, make a decision and plan ahead. Please be assured these three activities are beyond politicians in the UK. I can assure you that my daughter working in ICU/A&E is dealing with all ages of people and level of fitness who are dying of COVID and they are all unvaccinated. It is strange both my wife and daughter who are both nurses and have been treating COVID patients every day for nearly two years but have not contracted the disease because they adhered to the health guidance. Get vaccinated ASAP.
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@rob@rar, Sorry but that comment encapsulates our difference. 75% of deaths are of the 15% of population over 75. I think 400 healthy under 60s have died. Children and young people were never at significant medical risk from covid itself, but were far more affected by the economic, social and educational restrictions imposed to protect their grandparents.
And there endeth the evening.


Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Mon 22-11-21 21:16; edited 1 time in total
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snowhound wrote:
@rob@rar, Sorry but that comment encapsulates our difference. Children and young people were never at significant medical risk from covid itself, but were far more affected by the economic, social and educational restrictions imposed to protect their grandparents.
And there endeth the evening.
Yes, I fully agree they have been affected more by social distancing restrictions than by the disease itself. But those distancing restrictions were necessary, especially before the vaccines became available. Now that they are available the best way we have to protect kids' education is for an extremely high vaccination rate across all of society. I'm not entirely sure what your view on this is, but to me it doesn't;'t sound like you think this is very important.
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@David B,
Quote:

please be assured that conspiracies do not happen because it would require politicians to think, make a decision and plan ahead. Please be assured these three activities are beyond politicians in the UK.

Hey don't leave everyone else's politicians out of it wink
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@rob@rar, I am massively in support of mass vaccination. Despite being very low risk myself, I'll take any covid jab going. But I understand the resentment of anyone taking a different view to me, when they are effectively being mandated to have it.
On the flip side, I think those people who are unvaccinated and need medical treatment should be behind those who have been vaccinated and turn out to be one of the unlucky ones.
Again, I don't think the distancing restrictions were necessary beyond the initial 2020 wave. By then, the statistics made clear who was at risk.
To David B...not an epidemiologist, but I am a mathematical physicist who can read data beyond that on the 6 o'clock news.
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
snowhound wrote:
@rob@rar, I am massively in support of mass vaccination. Despite being very low risk myself, I'll take any covid jab going. But I understand the resentment of anyone taking a different view to me, when they are effectively being mandated to have it.
On the flip side, I think those people who are unvaccinated and need medical treatment should be behind those who have been vaccinated and turn out to be one of the unlucky ones.
OK, I think we are mostly in agreement on vaccination. I also think that we need a successful mass vaccination campaign, but that this should not mandatory for all of the general public. It should be on the basis of rights and responsibilities: you have the right to decline the offer of vaccination, but if you do then you should be expected to take responsibility for not contributing to the spread of the virus. This might include restrictions on some activities, it might be as severe as following a lockdown for the unvaccinated, although I'd not go as far as withholding medical care because of a lower priority compared to the vaccinated.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
I lived in Germany for ten years and they seemed incredibly organised in comparison to UK. But that is not difficult when Boris could not even give a coherent speech to the CBI today. I am little surprised that the Austrian nation have got themselves into this present position I thought they would have got themselves vaccinated. Austrians always come across as pragmatic sensible people.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
snowhound wrote:
@rob@rar, I am massively in support of mass vaccination. Despite being very low risk myself, I'll take any covid jab going. But I understand the resentment of anyone taking a different view to me, when they are effectively being mandated to have it.
On the flip side, I think those people who are unvaccinated and need medical treatment should be behind those who have been vaccinated and turn out to be one of the unlucky ones.
Again, I don't think the distancing restrictions were necessary beyond the initial 2020 wave. By then, the statistics made clear who was at risk.
To David B...not an epidemiologist, but I am a mathematical physicist who can read data beyond that on the 6 o'clock news.


I take my research from people like Jeremy Farrar not the six o'clock news. I also listen to my wife who is Advance Nurse Practitioner with forty two years experience and my daughter who is and A&E Advance Nurse Practitioner and ICU Acute Care Nurse Practitioner both work on the front line trauma teams in Leeds and Manchester.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@snowhound, >But if you're vaccinated, why do unvaccinated people pose a threat to you?
Because the unvaccinated are more likely to be more seriously ill and take up hospital resources denying others routine treatment and longer waiting lists.
Which might be me or you!!
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
rob@rar wrote:
...I also think that we need a successful mass vaccination campaign, but that this should not mandatory for all of the general public. It should be on the basis of rights and responsibilities: you have the right to decline the offer of vaccination, but if you do then you should be expected to take responsibility for not contributing to the spread of the virus. This might include restrictions on some activities, it might be as severe as following a lockdown for the unvaccinated,...

Broadly agree. That also includes not spreading it to the small proportion of the population with compromised immune systems, for whom vaccination is largely ineffective. So restrictions / lockdown might be a painful but necessary consequence, until the number of cases is down to a minimal level..
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
colinstone wrote:
@snowhound, >But if you're vaccinated, why do unvaccinated people pose a threat to you?
Because the unvaccinated are more likely to be more seriously ill and take up hospital resources denying others routine treatment and longer waiting lists.
Which might be me or you!!


Appointments for people who now need a serious operation (not-COVID related) but would need an intensive bed after the operation are now being cancelled in Austria. Some of these people could well die because of this delay.
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Surely what we need is a single accurate mandatory blood test which can tell exactly who has and hadn’t had it, rather than inaccurate tests which half are probably shoved in peoples ears or a dabbed against an old tea bag……
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RedandWhiteFlachau wrote:
@Mr.Egg, "Smallpox still took a decade to eradicate globally". A bit longer than that, The Smallpox vaccine was developed in the late 18th Century, industrialised in the 19th (Louis Pasteur) and widely used.

A strikingly large smallpox epidemic occurred in London from 1837 to 1838 and exploded into a European wide pandemic. The authorities in England realized that some radical measures had to be taken, which led to the first Vaccination Act of 1840, providing vaccination free of charge and banning variolation. The Vaccination Act of 1853 introduced mandatory smallpox vaccination in England and Wales for infants up to three months old. So in effect the UK had mandatory vaccination against Smallpox from 1853 to 1974. The last death from Smallpox in the UK was in 1978 and believed to have been the result of a leak in a Lab. Sound familiar?

The Smallpox Vaccinae was then effectively mandated globally between 1958-1977.

However, Coronavirus cannot be eradicated. Immunity wanes over time and like Flu viruses, we will always need boosters.


I meant when they set out to eradicate it globally. I think the last case was in 1977, a number of years after the main program was put into operation.
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snowhound wrote:
@RedandWhiteFlachau, Correct. There is no way of eradicating a respiratory infection, which mutates and which has an animal host reservoir to hide in.
Edit: Or Chinese laboratory.


Spanish Flu in the early part of the last century kinda pittered out. We still get flare up of the H1Nx or whatever it is, but it does not put countries gaming for the pause button
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Also it would be interesting to see how many people have got jabbed purely because they want to go skiing and wouldn’t otherwise…..
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@Mr.Egg, Spanish 'flu is a really crap analogy.

It's now generally believed that most people died of bacterial pneumonia, exacerbated by end of global war privations/living conditions, and with the benefit of hindsight, early 20th century medicine (e.g. viruses has not been very clearly identified, no antibiotics, etc.).

So really not a great examplar for the development/evolution of a novel virus.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Austrian Chancellor: 'You don’t only have rights, you have obligations'

The Chancellor of Austria, Alexander Schallenberg has told the BBC he is sorry that Austria has had to make Covid-19 vaccinations a legal requirement, but that the current low take-up rate is "too little, too late".

"Nobody wants the situation where you don’t get access to an intensive care unit bed because the beds are filled with people who did not get the vaccination and have Covid-19," he told Bethany Bell.

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-59378552
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This is Topic is about the Crisis in Austria ....

I live next door in Switzerland & have stated my position please respect the millions (literally) in these parts of the world who have a different opinion ......

I always get attacked by the usual posters (above) because I have an alternative view .. I see that as closed minds/blinkered issue (on many topics) for them not me...
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________

Back to Austria..

A couple of Pols

Not much support for lockdown of the unvaccinated ... 11%

Most support is for getting the situation under control 48%




This one is more interesting for Tourists .......

Most think the 20 day Lockdown will certainly be extended 47%



I would not start getting to excited about lockdown relaxations for this year (2021)


Passionate Speech....


http://youtube.com/v/AXsfonCy4NY
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stanton wrote:
This is Topic is about the Crisis in Austria ....

I live next door in Switzerland & have stated my position please respect the millions (literally) in these parts of the world who have a different opinion ......

I always get attacked by the usual posters (above) because I have an alternative view .. I see that as closed minds/blinkered issue (on many topics) for them not me...
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________

Back to Austria..

A couple of Pols

Not much support for lockdown of the unvaccinated ... 11%

Most support is for getting the situation under control 48%




This one is more interesting for Tourists .......

Most think the 20 day Lockdown will certainly be extended 47%



I would not start getting to excited about lockdown relaxations for this year (2021)


Passionate Speech....


http://youtube.com/v/AXsfonCy4NY


i think people disagree with you because the way you express your opinion is toxic and designed to provoke argument.

as for the surveys you quoted above, what's the sample size? where was the survey conducted?

it is totally unscientific and unhelpful to present unsourced data as if it were fact. Dressing it up as 'advice' is pretty disingenuous IMO
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
We certainly do not need Herbert Kickl in this forum. This is the head of the right-wing FPÖ which is anti-lockdown and anti-vaccination. It's not clear what their solution to the pandemic would be, except to let people die. Herr Kickl is currently sick with Covid.
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@stanton,
>Not much support for lockdown of the unvaccinated ... 11%

Most support is for getting the situation under control 48%

A bit of any oxymoron.

How will the situation be brought under control?? Are there any proposals from the angry anti-brigades??
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Mankei wrote:
We certainly do not need Herbert Kickl in this forum.


+1
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@clarky999, @Mankei, exactly.

(We know what happens in Austria once you let the right wingers take control ...)

Godwin and I will get our coats.
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clarky999 wrote:
Mankei wrote:
We certainly do not need Herbert Kickl in this forum.


+1


+2….although if he’s a skier, then perhaps it’s ok. After all, Stanton is still here… Laughing
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@Mankei, perhaps he can join Stanton down his crevasse, I am sure they would have a good time together Very Happy
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Wow - And the childish abuse continues - Is this forum for adults?
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@DanishRider, in fairness the troll has been trolling for many years, rarely contributes in any positive fashion.
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under a new name wrote:
@DanishRider, in fairness the troll has been trolling for many years, rarely contributes in any positive fashion.


I am aware of that, but why do other adults sink to that level ?
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@stanton,
Do you mean a passionate speech just like the ones Adolf used to give?
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DanishRider wrote:
under a new name wrote:
@DanishRider, in fairness the troll has been trolling for many years, rarely contributes in any positive fashion.


I am aware of that, but why do other adults sink to that level ?
because the constant, very unpleasant trolling sometimes pushes the mildest and most reasonable of people over the edge. I'm a bit the same with people who patronize me.
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Hurtle wrote:
DanishRider wrote:
under a new name wrote:
@DanishRider, in fairness the troll has been trolling for many years, rarely contributes in any positive fashion.


I am aware of that, but why do other adults sink to that level ?
because the constant, very unpleasant trolling sometimes pushes the mildest and most reasonable of people over the edge. I'm a bit the same with people who patronize me.


I tried….
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oh get over yourself. People have taken the wee wee out of each other since time immemorial and will continue to do so ad infinitum. stanton is an idiot troll who only posts on here to try and rile people up. People are perfectly within their rights to call him whatever they want, it's a skiing forum not a garden party with the queen!
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@Meltus, +1
This is the problem with the "snowflake" culture. Far to many people take offence. And then there's a mix of petty point scorers, whom admittedly I find mildly amusing. LOL, as my younger nephew would type. Keep it coming St Anton. Toofy Grin
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