 Poster: A snowHead
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Was talking to a Russian guy yesterday who used to work as a ski instructor. He was saying that he uses a method where you start with parallel rather than plough. He was very much aware that this isn't considered the norm elsewhere, but said it's a better system (unfortunately language barrier stopped me getting the intricacies of why it is better and how it works in practice). He said there are a few other systems that also go straight to parallel.
As a snowboarder I really have no clue. I just wondered if anyone had heard of this. Was interested to know what the perceived benefits were.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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It’s been around for at least 40 years, with Ski Evolutive in Les Arcs using progressively longer skis perhaps being the most innovative. It never really caught on, and none of the national ski teaching bodies advocate anything like this any longer.
An old mate of mine, who managed a kids race team, used to get very frustrated with the traditional teaching methods. He said that the first thing we teach skiers to do is to go slowly, when the whole idea is to go fast!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| telford_mike wrote: |
| He said that the first thing we teach skiers to do is to go slowly, when the whole idea is to go fast! |
I think the first thing we teach skiers is to ski in control with good weight distribution on the skis, then we refine it to do it more efficiently. When you've mastered that, fast comes easier, and more safely.
It is very easy to see the folks who took short cuts in their initial training. If snow ploughs are taught properly then there is massive emphasis on weight distribution on the outside ski and leaning down the hill. Once that is drilled in at slow and controlled speeds then when the move to stem and parallel turns comes, the student is much less over-loaded. I frequently see people on the hill who are close to skiing parallel reasonably well but do so with a very static upright stance. To improve they need to rewind back to the basics but that is harder to do once you think the only way to ski is parallel.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Lady F learned the Ski Evolutif method in Les Arcs (as mentioned above). I ended up showing her the Snowplough (much to the chagrin of the Instructor), as it was impossible to get her about the mountain without it.
Harald Harb has developed a system (PMTS) that does not involve the Snowplough.
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I personally found the snowplough was a means to an end but that the phase didn't last too long anyway.
Also, too note a plough can still be a useful tool even to an advanced skier in certain situations - so I would say you need to learn it anyway.
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I physically have never been able to do a snow plough, so just went straight to parallel anyway. Yes it would be nice to do a snow plough in certain situations, but I manage without it.
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| Layne wrote: |
| Also, too note a plough can still be a useful tool even to an advanced skier in certain situations - so I would say you need to learn it anyway. |
Agree, it is a tool, even if you never use it, it might come in handy in certain situations.
It is also not unheard of to see a snowplough used to quickly bleed speed in an F.I.S. Downhill!
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| doddsie wrote: |
| I physically have never been able to do a snow plough, so just went straight to parallel anyway. |
Just to be clear - you mean there is some physical mobility issue that prevents you or just that you could never master it?
It's certainly a bit of a physical challenge, especially on a steep slope, which could be difficult with dodgy knees for instance.
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Why would you want to avoid learning to do a good snowplough turn?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Why would you want to avoid learning to do a good snowplough turn? |
Back in the 80s on Straight Skis, when the Parallel Turn was hard to master and the length of the skis made learning more difficult....Ski Evolutif was supposed to make the process easier, as you started on 1m skis, then went to around 120 and finally around 140. I wasn't that convinced, but herself did learn to ski this way.
Harb's view, is that the stem can get ingrained in your skiing and then hinders you from becoming more expert. He would rather teach parallel from the start, to stop this happening. Modern Carving skis make this more viable. If you did the Phantom Move on Straight Skis, I don't think anything would happen.
I believe that if taught properly, it is part of the progression to decent/controlled parallel skiing.
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Tue 27-06-23 12:17; edited 2 times in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Why would you want to avoid learning to do a good snowplough turn? |
Agreed, I reckon I use a snowplough of some description every day that I ski in the mountains.
I have had this debate with a mate who is of the Harald Harb way of thinking, and somewhat sceptical of the national ski bodies way of thinking, but ultimately, when you get students coming for lessons, they want to be able to ski around, and getting them able to snowplough in control is much quicker than straight to parallel, so they can start to enjoy the mountains.
And as has been mentioned, if you can master a good snowplough, the parallel should start to come in naturally, if you're getting the weight on the correct ski and transition between the old to new downhill ski, they'll want to go parallel naturally.
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@boarder2020, back when I was doing my shadowing for my L1 qualification in Hemel, I had a Russian guy on the lesson that had never learned snowplough, and my god was his parallel terrible. It was all shoulders and upper body swinging round to create the turn, and the turns were not good, like zig zags down the slope rather than nice rounded turns you'd look for.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Old Fartbag wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| Why would you want to avoid learning to do a good snowplough turn? |
Back in the 80s when on Straight Skis, when the Parallel Turn was hard to master and the length of the skis made learning more difficult....Ski Evolutif was supposed to make the process easier, as you started on 1m skis, then went to around 120 and finally around 140. I wasn't that convinced, but herself did learn to ski this way.
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The Gradual Length Method (America):
https://www.facebook.com/KillingtonArea/videos/the-graduated-length-method-for-beginner-skiers/259334695214578/
Great film - Old style clip boots; Safety leashes to stop skis escaping; Ski pants, skin tight and inside boots; Lots of Up-unweighting; Old style lifts.
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Tue 27-06-23 16:11; edited 4 times in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I learnt with what I believe is a fairly standard snowplough-first-then-parallel system. I have pain in my right knee, which was worse at the time when I was learning – the days I spent snowplough skiing were painful, but luckily it wasn't quite bad enough to put me off, though I did seek out physio eventually.
It's a useful skill to have, usually on cat tracks or approaching lifts, but I wouldn't want to be doing it all day again.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Wow, 11 posts till one of the usual suspects comes in with a "back in the old days it was a lot harder on long straight skis"
Could be a new record...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Would currently not trust anything Russian... 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
As a snowboarder I really have no clue. I just wondered if anyone had heard of this. Was interested to know what the perceived benefits were. |
With perfect flat & open terrain you could learn to ski without snow ploughing. The question is why would you?
Snowplough a useful skill, that will help learners get about the mountain faster. Particularly in variable snow or steeper terrain. Think of snowplough as just another turn type that is part of the skiing-skill set.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| phil_w wrote: |
| I think the question ought to me more: "if you want to learn to parallel turn, is the fastest way to get there through the pizza wedge?" |
Very good point, and I think the answer is that question is yes (although I take issue with the pizza nonsense). The snowplough helps beginners balance as they learn to twist/skid/rotate their skis to turn left and right. The reason why most people need the extra stability of a snowplough is that they have to ski slowly to avoid the panicking and thrashing about which is the usual reaction when their speed increases past the point they feel in control. As they learn to balance more effectively on their outside ski and feel more comfortable with increasing speed, the snowplough will get smaller and the skis will move towards being parallel before the turn is complete. For most people this happens naturally and can start to happen pretty quickly, especially if they are helped to focus on the fundamental movements. The important thing is that a well performed snowplough develops the skills that underpin parallel skiing. You don’t throw anything away as you move to parallel, you don’t have to unlearn anything.
For me the bigger issue is not whether a snowplough turn is useful or not, but how challenging many skiers find the movements, timing and balance when asked to ski a snowplough at low speed. The skills you use for that kind of turn, blending together edging and rotating your skis, balancing against the pressure/forces that build as you turn, are no different to the skills you use when making parallel turns of all kinds, yet plenty of experienced skiers struggle to perform those skills at slow speeds. Perhaps if there was less disparaging of the “pizza wedge” and a bit more understanding of the skills needed to perform one some skiers would be a little bit more skilled across all the mountain…?
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| Layne wrote: |
| doddsie wrote: |
| I physically have never been able to do a snow plough, so just went straight to parallel anyway. |
Just to be clear - you mean there is some physical mobility issue that prevents you or just that you could never master it?
It's certainly a bit of a physical challenge, especially on a steep slope, which could be difficult with dodgy knees for instance. |
I guess it's a lack of hip mobility. I'm unable to turn my feet inwards enough or angle the skis enough to get them onto their edge. I was unable to do it when I first learnt to ski at 17 and after a 25 year gap I was still unable to do it when I took up skiing properly in my 40's.
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In order to make skis turn one of the elements is being able to rotate your feet/legs to point the skis where to go. For beginners as @rob@rar, says this is best practiced in a small wedge/plough/pizza/tarte tatin slice. As soon as you start to make the snowplough wider - possibly to stop, you have to extend your legs as well as rotate them. This extension --- making a stem, is not at all required for parallel skiing so needs to be unlearned.
Of course, to be able to practice such a small wedge you need a slope that is very gentle, with a good runout so speed control is not needed. So when reality strikes - for instance with stream at the end of your snow patch on Cairngorm, sometimes you have teach a plough stop.....
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| ski wrote: |
| ... tarte tatin slice... |
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I once watched a video of an American shouting instructions to a child skiing in front of him. The adult clearly couldn't decide what he wanted for lunch and kept shouting "pizza" then "fries" at the poor child who I suspected really wanted a slice of cake.
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Pizza, then Fries...Carbs then Carbs. No wonder they're all fat. 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Make yourself a cuppa
I don't teach the snow plough to enable 'never evers' to learn to ski
I do teach it as a means of scrubbing speed in very narrow terrain, for example the last 10-15 m going to a lift turnstile / gate
I go straight to parallel
Walk on snow through a series of turn shapes using 'baby steps' to feel the necessary weight & balance distribution
One footed skiing (ski on the the downhill foot) using the 'walking' foot (uphill) for speed control & balance
This is a series of turns going right to left / left to right across the width of the learning area
Then a series of linked turns with one ski on
This demonstrates weight & balance distribution, especially when the foot with the ski is uphill
Emphasises the need to be on a flatter ski with less weight and balance in order to pivot and steer through the turn
Once the student feels that release, when it's time to make a turn with the ski on the downhill foot they trust balancing with the slope
Then both skis on doing straight, parallel gliding on flat skis
The student holds the ski pole in front of them as if they were water skiing / pushing a shopping trolley
I hold one end of the ski pole and to control speed and aid in balance
This reinforces that when both skis are in the fall line they are flat and this is an acceleration phase
Once they're comfortable with gaining speed I let them go so they can straight run
I select terrain where there is a flattening off which will slow them down
Then it's on to a series of turns with both skis on
I'm uphill of the student holding on to the pole aiding in speed control and balance
They then 'belay' off me so that their body can be parallel with the slope through the first part of the turn allowing both skis to be flatter and allowing both skis to pivot and steer in a parallel shape through the curve
Once they've made the direction change and continue to pivot and steer both skis through the curve of the turn, the uphill edges of both skis engage
Speed control is determined by steering not by the muscular effort of jamming the inside edges of both skis into the snow in a wedge shape
The slope allows both skis to accelerate in the fall line, then the student uses that acceleration to curve their way past the halfway point of the arc and back up the slope until they've decelerated enough that they feel confident to allow themselves to get back to neutral, both skis flat and in the fall line and repeat the movement pattern in the opposite direction
Once they're comfortable with that I put my skis on and ski beside them - still holding the pole - through a series of turns
When we both think they're ready, I let go of the pole and then they're making linked parallel turns for the most part using the turn shape for speed control and direction of travel
It looks like this
https://www.instagram.com/p/Csa45GYMYZQ/
https://www.instagram.com/p/CsdMecPOhjD/
https://www.instagram.com/p/Csfprgkq7ga/
This is what it looks like for an adult
Half way through day 1
https://www.instagram.com/p/CnK-BsfhCkV/
Ski schools don't teach it because it has to be done on a 1-to-1 basis which doesn't make them as much money
At least in the short term
But as @phil_w alluded to, perhaps they should
With the churn of students of all ages trying the sport once and never coming back due to a feeling of frustration and a sense of being 'stuck on the baby slopes' this alternative learning and progression method has worked for me
None of my students have given up the sport, and all are life long learners
The progression to more difficult terrain and snow conditions, especially unconsolidated powder, has been more enjoyable and quicker in my experience
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Some people on here are ,wrongly, being a little bit snobby about the snow-plough turn...
A dismissive attitude that the plough is only a turn for beginners.
Ultimately though the snow-plough (or a stem) is just another tool in the box.
It is an essential life-skill for skiing, that teaches rotation and edge control among other things.
I still chuck an occasional plough every time I ski:
- In the lift queue
- Scrub speed on narrow patch of snow
- Variable snow or crust with heavy pack <etc>
- Bumpy traverse
Going straight to parallel might sound like a fast track learning curve.
However it requires perfect flat terrain and good snow - which aren't always available.
Plus some of the basic skills will be missed.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
Some people on here are ,wrongly, being a little bit snobby about the snow-plough turn...
A dismissive attitude that the plough is only a turn for beginners.
Ultimately though the snow-plough (or a stem) is just another tool in the box.
It is an essential life-skill for skiing, that teaches rotation and edge control among other things.
I still chuck an occasional plough every time I ski:
- In the lift queue
- Scrub speed on narrow patch of snow
- Variable snow or crust with heavy pack <etc>
- Bumpy traverse
Going straight to parallel might sound like a fast track learning curve.
However it requires perfect flat terrain and good snow - which aren't always available.
Plus some of the basic skills will be missed. |
In your opinion
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You know it makes sense.
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@Mike Pow, Are there not aspects of ski feel and balance/ weight transfer that you feel could be usefully taught with a plough. Also do you do your one foot ski progression with groups? It seems more matched to privates because of the intense instructor support.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
I do teach it as a means of scrubbing speed in very narrow terrain, for example the last 10-15 m going to a lift turnstile / gate
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e.g. down a narrow path that you've just skinned up for 2 hours? 
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Mike Pow wrote: |
In your opinion |
An opinion based on 20 years of ski teaching - including teaching my own kids to ski from age of 2.5.
As I see it snow plough is an essential skill for skiing rather than a "beginner turn".
You certainly can skip straight to parallel (*if* you have a perfectly flat terrain) but it is not necessarily a short cut longer-term.
IN MY OPINION.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Thu 29-06-23 9:28; edited 2 times in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| @Mike Pow, Are there not aspects of ski feel and balance/ weight transfer that you feel could be usefully taught with a plough. |
Of course
In my opinion, it's more logical; a better feel; and a far quicker progression attempting to teach 'straight to parallel'
| Quote: |
| Also do you do your one foot ski progression with groups? It seems more matched to privates because of the intense instructor support. |
No. As mentioned this can only be taught on a 1-to-1 basis
The snow plough method continues to be taught in ski schools despite massive technological advances in both skis and boots because there's more profit to be made with an instructor to student ratio greater than 1:1
The reason 'never evers' are taught to stop in the fall line - the steepest part of the slope with the greatest pull of gravity - using a braking arrowhead shape with heavy emphasis on the inside edges of both skis is the instructor can't catch more than one out of control student at a time
Once that action is ingrained in a beginner skier's mind and muscle memory, it's a very long road for them to 'unlearn' it
A road which far too many are not prepared to walk (ski)
But that unlearning has kept me in business for over 20 years
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| under a new name wrote: |
| Quote: |
I do teach it as a means of scrubbing speed in very narrow terrain, for example the last 10-15 m going to a lift turnstile / gate
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e.g. down a narrow path that you've just skinned up for 2 hours? |
I have no idea what this comment means
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Mike Pow wrote: |
The reason 'never evers' are taught to stop in the fall line - the steepest part of the slope with the greatest pull of gravity - using a braking arrowhead shape with heavy emphasis on the inside edges of both skis is the instructor can't catch more than one out of control student at a time |
The primary reason is most mountains don't have perfect terrain (very flat and open) that would be required for beginners to skip straight to parallel turns.
You can argue about the benefit of group vs private lessons.
But that is another discussion.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Mike Pow, there are loads of tracks that are quite popular for skinning up e.g. to the Loriaz refuge above Vallorcine but which (at least) early and poor seasons remain narrow and a bit rocky.
So after you've skinned up for a nice lunch and skied the first powder pitch, you really are left with no alternative but to plough the rest of the way down. Which is hard work if you're not proficient in the plough-ey bit.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| Mike Pow wrote: |
In your opinion |
An opinion based on 20 years of ski teaching - including teaching my own kids to ski from age of 2.5.
As I see it snow plough is an essential skill for skiing rather than a "beginner turn".
You certainly can skip straight to parallel (*if* you have a perfectly flat terrain) but it is not necessarily a short cut longer-term.
IN MY OPINION. |
Absolutely, and yours is the majority opinion
Mine is the very much the minority opinion based on teaching both methods
I was taught the snow plough
I was taught to teach the snow plough
I tried a different method and found it was far more enjoyable and successful for my students
I teach 'never evers' as I was taught to ride a bike
On a 1:1 basis with help with balance and speed control and turning shape
Once I was ready to go solo under control my Dad let go of the handlebars or seat
And I was away
And I didn't have to learn or unlearn anything else
I find it fascinating that you feel that my method of teaching is inferior, a short cut, a dis-service in the long term to my students
I don't understand your emphasis on 'perfectly flat terrain'
Do you mean well groomed, pisted terrain?
Or terrain more resembling a cross country circuit?
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Thu 29-06-23 11:00; edited 2 times in total
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| under a new name wrote: |
@Mike Pow, there are loads of tracks that are quite popular for skinning up e.g. to the Loriaz refuge above Vallorcine but which (at least) early and poor seasons remain narrow and a bit rocky.
So after you've skinned up for a nice lunch and skied the first powder pitch, you really are left with no alternative but to plough the rest of the way down. Which is hard work if you're not proficient in the plough-ey bit. |
Maybe wait until the coverage is better
The plough may help you in this situation, but that's not why it's taught in the first place in my opinion
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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So 1 to 1 the plough isn't essential. I can get that and also think that it might be very harmful having people in groups or self teaching attempting to go straight to parallel which effectively would mean hefting themselves round between alternate traverse positions and crude zig zagging. Now the edging and balance used in this may not be totally redundant but surely the best blend is everything including the plough in moderation.
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