 Poster: A snowHead
|
The typical way beginners are taught to ski goes something like:
1) Snowplough
2) Snowplough turns (keeping in a snow-plough throughout)
3) Stem turns (snowplough turns with a traverse)
4) Stem Christie (initiating with a slight snow-plough but bringing other ski round before fall-line)
5) True parallel turns
I've come to believe that teaching snowplough to beginners is bad:
* It's not really a natural position that people will have done in other sports/activities.
* It can be hard to control speed on a snow-plough in some conditions or on some slopes. If a new skier does accidentally build up any speed, it is very hard for a nervous beginner to stop with a snow-plough. In the past I've often had to ski a backwards snow-plough in front of somebody and catch them.
* Most falls with beginners occur when skies get crossed, something that stems & snow-ploughs naturally lead to.
* At each of the above steps you are creating a false plateau, habits and muscle memory for something that you're then trying to change. You see many skiers who never really get beyond 4 as they are happy tootling from bar to bar.
I've now taught two people to ski straight to parallel turns. They were both good snow-boarders which helps a lot, but within 2 hours, on both occassions I'd got them skiing a combination of short and long parallel turns down the fall line of blues/easy reds at reasonable speed, jumping small kickers and doing piste-side powder/crud. Not only that, they both ended up at the end of 1 day looking technically quite tidy (in one occassion perhaps more so than me!)
My basic approach is:
1) Having given basic safety briefing, talk about basic stance and show them how hard it is to actually fall over (get them into a shoulder width stance with bent legs and try and push them over)
2) Find a small bank with a natural run out and get them to ski straight down it a couple of times to give them the feeling of skiing/balance
3) Find a moderately steep blue and start working on edge control. Getting a feel for nice gentle movement and the weight distribution between edges. Practice a 'falling leaf' style movement. If a new skier does later encounter a steeper section of a run, I've found it much easier to get them down it on an edge then with a snow-plough.
4) Work on hockey stops. Get them to push off down the fall line and come round onto an edge. Focus on bending the knees and keeping the edge soft at first. Slowly build up slightly more speed by counting to a higher number before putting in the stop.
5) Get them to 'link' these stops together by not coming to a complete stop, but taking off most of the speed. Then get them to come out of crouch and project weight upwards/forewards and slightly down the slope to help initiation. This then naturally evolves into a basic parallel turn.
These first 5 steps typically take about an hour, after that I've found they need about of doing it in which they increase speed/feel/confidence. At this point I typically take them off on a quick explore to get them to eperience different terrrain. At this point I say very little, sometimes following sometimes leading. Only very occassionally stopping to point out small things. I try and do fun stuff like small jumps and piste side powder as soon as possible. This keeps them relaxed and gives them a feeling of achievement. I've found that they typically get the legs working quite well, and it just takes a little bit of 'finishing off work' to keep their upperbody/arms in the right places. Throughout the entire process positive re-inforcement/encouragement/feedback is really important.
Thoughts? Does anybody else have any similar/contradictory experiences/views?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
As Easiski points out elsewhere, stem christies are very useful turns. As noted elsewhere, snowploughs are very useful.
IMHO, while I would agree with you that the transition from a skidded, plough/semi plough is tricky, it's so much less so with new skis that I would disagree with your methods.
Also, while a snow plough isn't optimal for stopping from fast to stopped quickly, I would humbly suggest that the requirement to do so indicates inappropriate terrain rather than anything else... 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
kamikaze, I shall say nothing since I don't want to be rude.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
kamikaze, perhaps your username is very appropriate! How do you teach them to control their speed in busy runs?
It appears you want to teach one stance, one turn. Isn't that kinda limiting?
Oh, and a final MAJOR point - if you are teaching them how difficult it is to fall over, then "you are creating a false plateau, habits and muscle memory for something that you're then trying to change." 
BTW, I'm sure a certain Mr Harb would love to hear from you - he openly hates me, cause I asked him a few simple questions once that pointed out the serious flaws in parts of his one and only way to ski.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
kamikaze, I think you may have got a false impression of how effective the system you used is. Good snowboarders have all the the basics sorted already and from other posts Ive seen have very little trouble converting to skis. I think you'd find things a bit tougher with a real novice with a dose of slope fear thrown in for good measure.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
I'd hate to not know how to snowplough. It's a useful tool for controlling low speeds (eg approaching a lift queue, narrow paths, etc), and in very steep terrain its a very stable turn when you need to be assured of turning. Isn't the plough one of the essential tools required by all skiers?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Is a plough honestly a turn for steep terrain? I thought it wouldn't get you out of the fall line quickly enough.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
kamikaze, i think BASI has it right with the Central Theme of
1. Equipment familiarisation
2. sliding down to a gentle stop
3. Straight Ploughs to a gentle stop (but not braking) to help learning to stretch the body upward and rotate/steer both feet into a plough position
4. Plough turns of increasing radius to keep speed control
5. Transition from plough to parallel by extending and rotating to parallel when traversing across the fall line
6. parallel
Mountain skills like traversing and sliding/skidding down a hill are very useful tools should a beginner find too steep or icy terrain..
too much too soon doesnt seem to do anyone any favours.....
Wear The Fox Hat, took the words out of my mouth with your first sentence..... 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
I agree with kamikaze that using the snowplough as a transition to parallel turns is maybe not the best route.
The snowplough is very energy sapping and doesn't lead to a good neutral stance which has to be learned after.
That doesn't mean it shouldn't be taught. I believe its very important to learn it to give the beginner (and expert alike) a tool for speed control that they can always fall back on but it shouldn't be used as the main tool for learning to turn.
I find straight to parallel concepts very appealing in theory but then Ive never had to teach anyone 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
rich, I think people confuse a snow plough turn with a snow plough brake. A plough with knees together and edges dug in is very energy sapping but an easy turn extending and rotating works well.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| rich wrote: |
The snowplough is very energy sapping and doesn't lead to a good neutral stance which has to be learned after.
|
Absolute twaddle, the first most important rule of skiing for me is the stance and I make sure all my pupils obey this rule from their very first run, a good snowplough is simple when in the basic stance and i make sure all my pupils can snowplough confidently with ease. Once this has been mastered the rest is easy.
kamikaze, teaching snowboarders to ski and vice versa is nothing like teaching newcomers, I teach both and it's blatently obvious if they have already mastered the other disicipline.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
IMO teaching athletic coordinated brave folks to ski is easy no matter how you do it. The test of a teaching method (and an instructor) is how it deals with those that don't get it all easily first time.
That said I do think going straight to parallel and then backing into snowplough could work for some people, especially on the newer skis. But I wouldn't want to be around someone who couldn't snowplough; it really is a handy tool and I'm not sure once someone had parallel turns down whether they would stick around for the 'and now learnt to plough' lesson.
A case in point, one of my gang was 'taught' almost straight to parallel and still has serious issues with the basics of ski control, resulting in a technique rather like your step 5 'linking stops'. He skis everywhere I do, mostly in reasonable control but his basics are shot so he can't move on and to fix it now would mean going right back to simple exercises, but who wants to do basics when they could be out skiing the mountain? He was up the mountain on blues and reds with us his first day on the slopes, but long term it's really not worked out well.
aj xx
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
easiski took me back to basics on a green run last time I had a lesson with her. It did me the world of good.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
Ridiculous.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
Snowplough turns utilise the same mechanics as a parallel turn, the difference being that the Centre of Mass is between the Base of Support rather than to the inside of the turn.
If you can't do a good snowplough turn (eg; displacing or heel pushing) chances are that this will be evident in your higher end skiing.
Very often when I'm coaching high end advanced skiers we have to revert back to exploring the mechanics in a snowplough in order to improve.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
The foot is not displaced or pushed when ploughing, the foot should be rotated.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
I'm sure you could teach people who were quite good snow-skaters or telemarkers straight to parallel too. If they are good boarders they already know how to ride an edge.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| snowaddict wrote: |
| The foot is not displaced or pushed when ploughing, the foot should be rotated. |
Isn't it rotated and pushed? Otherwise don't you have a very narrow wedge?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
Snowplough - The "Leg" not "Foot" is rotated, to create Plough shape. The Leg is then extended or Flexed to alter Plough size.
Does Kamikaze have any Ski qualifications whatsoever? I hope not!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
veeeight wrote
| Quote: |
| if you ask 5 Michelin starred chefs how to poach an egg or make a cheese omlette, you'll probably get 9 different answers..... |
does this mean that everyone is right about the basics and a competent skier will be the result irrespective of technique, or will some of the techniques result in some of the eggs being 'half baked' or spoiled by over fussy garnishing.
It would be interesting to know how many experienced skiers consider the snow plough as something they still use or whether they consider it as bit of an embarrassment or 'beginner' technique that is now to be avoided at all costs. I know my ski friends would not snow plough if they had any reason whatsoever !
I am interested because I have learned to board and some day will try skiing and all this fuss about the basics is confusing. I already have an aversion to snow ploughing becasue I see so so many little kids dong it that it seems like a childs way of skiing and maybe there is an alternative method of learning!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
rayscoops, I believe I ski tolerably well and I use 'ploughs pretty frequently, mostly for low speed manoeuvering - e.g. lift line approaches. It's unquestionably a useful capability.
Racing snowploughs and racing side slips also have their uses...
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
rayscoops, like David Murdoch, I find I use the snowplough in lift approaches. I also ski tolerably well, but not up to Dave's standard 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
I echo DM's and lampbus's favouring of the plough where the situation dictates.
I don't ski tolerably well...................
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| Quote: |
It would be interesting to know how many experienced skiers consider the snow plough as something they still use or whether they consider it as bit of an embarrassment
|
Hah.
Watch so called expert skiers and advanced skiers in less than perfect conditions.
I'll put money on that they will begin their turn in some sort of stem, as opposed to a simultaneous edge change (as you should in a parallel turn)..........
They don't even know/realise that they are stemming/starting the turn with a snowplough
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
Yoda,
Is there any more to the above than 8 seconds it was all I seemed to get fascinating but a little unfulfilling.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
Yoda,
He goes on to ski those bumps with a transition from the wedge very tolerably well, doesn't he...!!!!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
veeeight, I agree. I wonder if I do or not. I suspect I do. Although I know I like jump turns....
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| lampbus wrote: |
| rayscoops, like David Murdoch, I find I use the snowplough in lift approaches. I also ski tolerably well, but not up to Dave's standard |
Yup. I find myself using a snowplough in similar situations. I find a stem christie (I think - ie initiating a turn by stetting the uphill ski off at an angle) can be useful on breakable crust - and can be comforting on steep terrain. I've skied a fair bit. lambus has the edge on my skiing - but I found I could bimble around with him.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
kamikaze, I fall into the category of nervous beginer, and don't know what I would have done if I hadn't learned to snowplough first. At least I learned a reliable way of stopping before learning anything else. Also, I never had any problems with ski's crossing either.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
achilles, thanks, i think if anyone else wants to chip in about how they rate relative to you we could start to build a ski ability league table 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
when it comes to learning their winter sports.
