 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi
In researching my travel insurance for the upcoming season of snowy fun, i have read this, "You are covered to ski and snowboard off piste and at a snow park provided you are within the ski area boundaries of a recognised ski resort and following ski patrol guidelines." as the limitation on ski activity cover.
We are heading into France and Italy on our trip, Piste maps only show the pistes and speaking to the lift pass company they 'only have responsibility for the pistes' - which i understand as they maintain the pistes and only control outside of this to protect thier infrastructure.
Many years ago i was out with an instructor, who paused in the woods and advised that 'from here on we are outside of the area the piste patrol will rescue from and, if needed, it would the fire service from Bourg who would help us' (at presumably high cost) even though we were skiing from and back on to the resort pistes - but i could never find a document that defined this ... local knowledge only it seems.
I had spoken to our previous insurer and got an answer that clearly was scripted to suit the american resort model with clear publically defined boundaries.
So i am wondering how the 'boundary' of the ski resort / area can be determined or obtained so as not to fall foul of the insurers cover limits - not that i am planning any extreme stuff.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@JonA, I would interpret that as your insurance doesn't work for European off-piste, possibly with the exception of the limited number of dedicated off piste areas such as the freeride zone in Zinal and itinerary runs
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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In Europe the boundary is the piste anything beyond that is not controlled. In USA it's the resort boundary anything after that is not controlled. I guess the exception may be some kind of controlled itinerary/freeride area in Europe, but you'd probably have to find out what that means for the specific resort as it seems to vary.
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@JonA, the problem is that many ski insurance packages have copied American rules. In my later years of skiing off-piste I used BMC insurance which was refreshingly free of weasel words. You might want to check that.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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This is what LV said to me in an email:
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Question: How does this work in Europe where they don't have in bounds off piste as they do in North America. What is a " a recognised ski resort" in this instance?
Answer: You can go off piste where this is allowed, there will most likely be areas where you are told don’t go to so we wouldn’t want you to go in those areas and you must stay within the boundaries of the recognised resort. You will need to check with the resort what their boundaries are. |
The crucial bit is "following ski patrol guidelines" - so don't ignore warnings or clearly closed off areas.
Otherwise anything that is lift served is fine.
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I've always interpreted it as between pistes. So provided you're not going out from the farthermost piste in principle you're covered. Geography of course makes it more complex. I can think of a lot of commonly skied routes in Stuben for instance that would not meet that definition but might "broadly" be in the ski area e.g. I suspect patrol would be quite happy to rescue people from Star Wars. Dropping into another valley I think would be more problematic
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@Dave of the Marmottes, LV say you can "go off piste where this is allowed" - the only restrictions I know of (in France/Austria) are nature reserves or those cliffs, rocks signs or where they warn of high avalanche risk.
Difficult to say it relies on common sense when it comes to this but ultimately it kind of does.
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@JonA, If you are outside pisteur territory then it will be the fire brigade or mountain rescue. These services are free in France including helicopter if required. Only have to pay / expensive if considered to be in resort. Rule of thumb if you can ski there from top of lift without having to climb then likely to be in resort
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@boarder2020, I think it's what you are saying.
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But you're definitely not covered by your insurance on a closed piste.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
Otherwise anything that is lift served is fine.
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I don't read the LV guidelines like that at all! Although to be fair it is all quite vague and open to interpretation. I would imagine "off-piste where allowed" would refer to controlled off piste areas within the resort. "Off piste where allowed" meaning anywhere it's not actually banned seems unlikely as there are so few examples (although makes more sense for us resorts permanent closures). For example, lavachet wall at tignes is not outside the resort boundary (if you just draw a circle around the furthest pistes) and lift served, but if you get hurt there and LV ask tignes is that terrain considered part of the resort they would probably say no it's outside our control.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I think people are trying to guess how the insurers might decide to interpret a circumstance they know nothing about, as evidenced by them still talking about resort boundaries. This is a bit chancy. Better go to an insurer who knows about European skiing.
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I think the crucial phrase is "within the ski area boundaries of a recognised ski resort". Most replies above seem to interpret this as the external boundaries of the resort, however you can also interpret it as the boundaries of each piste - i.e. basically saying you are allowed to ski on piste only. This aligns with Boarder2020's reply which I think is correct.
If you want insurance for skiing off piste then the starting point is dealing with an insurer who understands the sport and I would suggest that the wording of this policy suggests they don't (or they have just copied a North American one).
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You know it makes sense.
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And then you get the skicover definition:
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* Off-piste covered as standard: 1) with TIF policies (Bronze, Silver, Gold, Leisure, Action and Extreme) you are covered as standard for Skiing and snowboarding in areas in and around the resort, but off the actual marked pistes, such as skiing on a hillside between marked pistes, or skiing down slopes adjacent to marked runs, but always finishing at the bottom of tows or lifts within the resort and never in areas cordoned off or restricted and this is defined as "on piste skiing and snowboarding in the policy wording". If you are skiing outside of these areas they are considered as ‘off piste’ and you're covered for this as standard provided you are with a Guide. 2) with Voyager policies (Standard, Prime and Black) you are covered on and off piste within resort as standard |
Which still contains the "within resort" phrase, with no definition, for it's more expensive options.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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My LV insurance includes ‘ off piste’ specifically in the wording. Between open pistes, where you aren’t specifically told by the resort not to go would have to be ok in my book. Otherwise ‘off piste ‘ has no meaning at all
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Poster: A snowHead
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@tarrantd, crossed in post so to speak!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| twoodwar wrote: |
| My LV insurance includes ‘ off piste’ specifically in the wording. Between open pistes, where you aren’t specifically told by the resort not to go would have to be ok in my book. Otherwise ‘off piste ‘ has no meaning at all |
How do you define between open pistes? Two pistes running parallel 20m apart seems far game. On the other hand I can think of some pretty "interesting" couloirs that are technically between two pistes which I don't think regular insurance would cover.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Layne wrote: |
Difficult to say it relies on common sense when it comes to this but ultimately it kind of does. |
I think it's impossible to precisely define for every situation and resort unless you just offer a blanket off-piste freedom. If you're choosing a billy big balls cliff zone or couloir that is rarely skied I think it's probably fair to say that might not be considered within resort bounds, but anything regularly skied and easily accessible by punters would be.
It's interesting that in the US and Canada there are certain zones that are predominantly cliffs or actual cliffs with a thin cover of snow (and sometimes actually named runs - McConkeys for example) that would be fine for the offpiste definition. I suspect you neglect to include the Go Pro footage with your claim if you ragdoll down McConkeys though and refer to it as a "popular resort run".
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| pam w wrote: |
| But you're definitely not covered by your insurance on a closed piste. |
And in the case of anywhere else using one of the more classic signs seen in Scotland… “Piste Closed - Experts Only” ? 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Disagree with a lot of the above.
LV covers lift served off piste. It doesn't cover ski mountaineering, heli-skiing, ski touring.
If you disagree then fine but it's clear to me.
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| Layne wrote: |
Disagree with a lot of the above.
LV covers lift served off piste. It doesn't cover ski mountaineering, heli-skiing, ski touring.
If you disagree then fine but it's clear to me. |
Well the issue is it's not particularly clear or else we wouldn't be having the discussion! You can read it in different ways, there is ambiguity there. Although I don't see how you can be certain it covers lift served off-piste as it says "You will need to check with the resort what their boundaries are" so you would need at minimum to confirm with individual resorts.
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The whole reason I joined the ÖAV was for the insurance.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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The Nz way is great - like the US with area boundaries, anything within is fair game, if it’s open, anything outside the poles is back country and unpatrolled/uncontrolled.
And no need for insurance regardless of where or how you write yourself off. All rescues and medical is on the state’s tab, usually private. Can’t really sue anyone either so resorts don’t get too touchy about using them for access.
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@haggishunter, that's a bit of a non seq non?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
You will need to check with the resort what their boundaries are
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If skiing in Europe why can't you use the piste map as the definition of resort boundaries?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Layne wrote: |
Disagree with a lot of the above.
LV covers lift served off piste. It doesn't cover ski mountaineering, heli-skiing, ski touring.
If you disagree then fine but it's clear to me. |
If it’s so clear as to what is in the resort boundaries on which of the following runs would you be confident of LV covering your claims for the hypothetical scenario where a small avalanche leaves you with a broken leg and needing rescue?
1) Skiing from the from Col de la Chal or Grand Col in Les Arcs down to Les Lanches. No uphill is required for these fairly well known and popular off-piste routes and you come out at a bus stop with a free shuttle back to the lifts so still in resort really. I don’t remember there being any warning signs at the top.
2) Grand Vallon, Val d’Isere. This is named on the piste map although not marked as a piste. No uphill is required, and you end up back on a blue piste (or at the Pyramides chair if you remember to turn left in time). At the entrance to Grand Vallon there are big signs saying ‘Danger of Avalanches’ that are there permanently regardless of the avalanche risk. It is not ‘between the pistes’ in that there are no pistes East of it. It is a hugely popular off-piste run.
3) Banane, Val d’Isere. Fully between the pistes although it feels remote. The pistes La Face, Santons and Fontaine Froid encompass it and it is directly above the town. There are no warning signs whatsoever. Out of the three routes listed here it is probably the most avalanche prone
None of these are ski touring, mountaineering or heli-skiing but I personally wouldn’t be confident in LV covering claims on any of those runs. Therefore, if I intended to do anything more than pop 100m between two pistes I would want cover that didn’t include terms like ‘inside resort boundaries’. Austrian Alpine Club is one of the best providers in terms of having no clauses
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| Quote: |
"You are covered to ski and snowboard off piste and at a snow park provided you are within the ski area boundaries of a recognised ski resort and following ski patrol guidelines."
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It could mean anything, but I suspect it is there so the insurer could wriggle out of any claim by saying "since there are no boundaries you cannot be within them" or "we don't recognise this ski resort" Some where it should state what consitutes the boundary of a ski resort and provide a list of ski resorts it recognises.
I'm not sure I subscribe to the lazy policy writers view of large insurance companies. I think every word they use is carefully considered even if it is there to cause confusion and ambiguity.
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You know it makes sense.
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Best thing is to not go with LV. They're catering for a one week a year skier who may lose their bag at the airport or have an injury on piste where they're gona cover medical and getting you off the hill costs.
if you're skiing off piste go with someone who specialises in it.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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| halfhand wrote: |
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You will need to check with the resort what their boundaries are
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If skiing in Europe why can't you use the piste map as the definition of resort boundaries? |
The concept of “resort boundary” does not apply in Europe as generally the resort operator has arrangements in place with farmers and other land owners etc to put pistes and infrastructure on the land. The resort does not own or lease a large block of land such as a mountain to create a “resort”.
I have a balanced view with insurance - I rely on my normal travel insurance (which will cover most accidents), EHIC card as backup if something bad was to happen off piste where travel insurance does not cover, and pay for off-piste rescue. We have made few travel insurance claims over the years for illness and accidents while on ski trips but none have been related to actual skiing.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Wow, i wasn't expecting to generate such a lot of discussion - but clearly i am not the only one who thinks that the insurers words are un-clear when including statements such as 'within resort' or 'resort boundaries' in relation to non-north american skiing.
I suspect that a lot of us ski at risk of the interpretation of the 'small print'
Reading the above and having given this some further thought i think that it is a case of 'what is the boundary that the insurers are refering to?' - they of course don't provide this definition, giving them the opportunity to wriggle. - is it the areas physical infrastructure over which the resort/lift company have control, ie marked and directly patrolled/controlled areas whether pistes or freeride areas - or is it the extent of ground to which the resort rescue services (piste secours and others) will respond.
the former is very limited and pretty much excludes all off piste, including the bit between pistes (freeride areas just being expansive non-landscaped, un-bashed piste)
the latter is much wider and provides the coverage that, i suspect, most (inc me) would be looking for.
This morning i took this question back to LV (as an example insurer, most others i've looked at have similar phrasing) - eventually after much re-quoting of the policy wording by the rep they refered upto a senior level and i got the response "usually limit of patrol', this seems closer to the latter above but remains ambiguous, i couldn't get any further clarification nor would they put that phrase in writing.
I was told i need to ask the resort what they see as their boundary and get it in writing 
This brings me back to my original question of how do i determine the boundary - although perhaps i have a better idea of the question i should be asking.
thanks all, safe skiing.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Ozboy, You might not want to call it 'resort boundary' but in France you do do need to think about the concept. Off piste rescue is free if you are well away from a ski resort, even price of a helicopter rescue. Think of mountain rescue in the UK. However, if you are rescued off piste which you have accessed directly from a ski lift or ' in resort' then you have to pay / insure. If a pisteur arrives expect to pay !
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| pateman99 wrote: |
| @Ozboy, You might not want to call it 'resort boundary' but in France you do do need to think about the concept. Off piste rescue is free if you are well away from a ski resort, even price of a helicopter rescue. Think of mountain rescue in the UK. However, if you are rescued off piste which you have accessed directly from a ski lift or ' in resort' then you have to pay / insure. If a pisteur arrives expect to pay ! |
Yes I insure for that by purchasing the rescue insurance offered when buying my season pass.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| halfhand wrote: |
| Quote: |
You will need to check with the resort what their boundaries are
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If skiing in Europe why can't you use the piste map as the definition of resort boundaries? |
Most piste maps bear no resemblance to a topographic map - so they would not be definitive. I have never been clear which off-piste skiing was actually within an Alpine resort, and a I strongly suspect that the resorts don't know, to within 1/2 a km or so, where the boundaries are, either - since I have never seen them published.
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@achilles, I would have thought that off piste skiing was any skiing off the marked pistes?
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European resorts have no concept of an area which constitutes the resort so no point in asking the resort. You simply have an insurer who never defined their cover in European terms so cannot redefine it without reconsidering their whole cover policy.
Go for an insurer who insures all off-piste other than ski mountaineering or hell-skiing (which will require an extra premium).
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| pateman99 wrote: |
| @Ozboy, You might not want to call it 'resort boundary' but in France you do do need to think about the concept. Off piste rescue is free if you are well away from a ski resort, even price of a helicopter rescue. Think of mountain rescue in the UK. However, if you are rescued off piste which you have accessed directly from a ski lift or ' in resort' then you have to pay / insure. If a pisteur arrives expect to pay ! |
A very good post.
At which point does the jurisdiction of the resort ski patrol end?
That to me would be the resort boundary.
I'm not sure of the answer exactly but comfortable that anywhere I ski off piste they would cover.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| snowball wrote: |
European resorts have no concept of an area which constitutes the resort so no point in asking the resort. You simply have an insurer who never defined their cover in European terms so cannot redefine it without reconsidering their whole cover policy.
Go for an insurer who insures all off-piste other than ski mountaineering or hell-skiing (which will require an extra premium). |
I second this. There are some things where it's worth paying a bit more for peace of mind. Plenty of ski specific insurance out there that clearly covers off-piste so go with one of them.
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| Layne wrote: |
| pateman99 wrote: |
| @Ozboy, You might not want to call it 'resort boundary' but in France you do do need to think about the concept. Off piste rescue is free if you are well away from a ski resort, even price of a helicopter rescue. Think of mountain rescue in the UK. However, if you are rescued off piste which you have accessed directly from a ski lift or ' in resort' then you have to pay / insure. If a pisteur arrives expect to pay ! |
A very good post.
At which point does the jurisdiction of the resort ski patrol end?
That to me would be the resort boundary.
I'm not sure of the answer exactly but comfortable that anywhere I ski off piste they would cover. |
So your insurance specifies you must be in the "resort boundary", which you can't define exactly. Your insurance says "resort boundary" is defined however the resort likes, so really you are at the whim of them potentially saying we only consider the pistes part of the resort. However you are comfortable that anywhere you ski off piste they would cover. It seems vague and ambiguous at best. Personally I'd rather pay a bit more for "proper" off piste insurance from a specialist and have the peace of mind.
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