 Poster: A snowHead
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Looking to drive my old 19 year fiat doblo to the italian alps from the UK. It is in fairly good condition for its age but in your personal experience, what 'breaks' on an older diesels in cold temperatures ?
Guessing change shabby looking hoses ?
Make sure newish battery ?
Make sure you have enough anti gel diesel additive ?
Looking to swap out my wheels for a spare set of rims with winter tyres.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Problems I've had (not specific to an old diesel) were handbrake freezing on (park in gear with "chocks" behind/in front of wheel if on a slope) and battery dying in the cold (try to park somewhere that's not in the shade all day and it should be fine).
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Ben, so instead of using the hand brake, use rocks/chocks instead ? Thats a good tip.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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New battery, as big as possible, battery charger, correct spanners to take battery off and charge it in your accomodation.
Easy start spray in case it gets desperate.
Anti gel, winter tyres etc. Definitely.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@kezzy19661, these are the main things that I check/change/carry in my old Audi diesel for the winter:
WD40 in the door locks
-20c screen wash
Radiator anti-freeze level
Gummi Pflege on the door and window seals to prevent them freezing shut
Change wiper blades to silicon (they don't freeze to the windscreen)
Portable battery booster/starter and jump leads
12v tyre compressor
Tyre sealant
Chains or socks with mat and gloves
Torch
Anything legally required - high vis vest, spare bulbs, headlamp converters etc.
You can get things like the anti freeze and battery checked for free at Halfords and Kwikfit.
The only things that are really specific to diesels are the glow plugs, direct injectors and diesel fuel filter. Fuel filters should be changed every couple of years so if you haven't done it recently I would change that, they're only about £20. If the injectors are blocked you'd get a misfire and if a glow plug fails you'll get a warning light so if its running ok now then don't worry about it. You could put a fuel system cleaning additive in the tank before you go as a precaution. Regarding winter fuel additive, Alpine areas usually have winter fuel as standard in the filling stations so you shouldn't really need it.
If you start changing hoses, you'll never stop so I wouldn't bother unless a mechanic tells you you need to. Make sure your brake fluid has been changed in the last three years.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| skitow wrote: |
| correct spanners to take battery off and charge it in your accomodation. |
I wouldn't risk this. For most modern cars, removing the battery for a period of time will reset the immobilisation system as well as all the ECUs. There's a very strong chance that the car won't start at all unless the keys are recoded with a factory computer. Alternators charge batteries fastest, just jump it if it's flat and go for a 50 mile drive.
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@Raceplate, The OP referred to a 19 year old fiat doblo ! It will be fine taking the battery on and off
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@skitow, immobilizers have been standard on everything since the early 1990s. Given Fiat and Alfa's reputation for crap electrics, the last thing I would be doing is giving it a chance to enhance that reputation.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Raceplate, Well I have taken the batteries off inumerable Peugeot's, fiats and Renault's over the last 20 years, in the Alps and not. The OP will be fine.
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Old cars are actually better than new in this regard. Our 11 year old Laguna diesel starts first time after being laid up for 5 months every winter. Modern cars don’t seem to last more than a few weeks without a run or a charge.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@telford_mike, I believe most modern cars have factory-fitted alarms which drain power.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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make sure you get there 'nearly empty' so you can fill up with Winter Diesel
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Top tip from @Mr.Egg, if it has been properly serviced then there should be little special to do.
Battery condition is important, a jump starter a good idea but is no substitute for jump leads. If you can get glow pugs checked easily then do that if you have any doubts a tin of easy start is a good plan.
Don't use the hand brake, have snow chains and practice fitting them before you need them.
Like @Raceplate, said rubber care, silicon spray or even vaseline on door seals. Check wiper blades and dont leave them on the screen to freeze, if you do leave them on the screen make sure they are free before you switch them on.
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You know it makes sense.
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Marigold type gloves for fittting the chains;
a rubber mat to kneel on when fitting said chains;
a bucket to put snowy chains in after taking them off!
Make sure that the reservoir is almost empty before adding your winter screenwash,
If your Doblo has the same dispay as my Alfa ("door open" "light bulb failed" type messages), it will tell you when a glow plug has failed, otherwise you will be able to tell when one cylinder takes a moment longer than the others to work properly. A nuisance, but not normally a showstopper.
How old is your cam-belt?
Dustpan type brush to clear the windscreen and if you have an aerosol deicer (not that important) keep it indoors (they don't spray very well when cold).
Enjoy!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Check if you may need a Crit'air sticker for your car. Older cars may be prohibited in many areas if air quality is poor
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Poster: A snowHead
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All points above are good so I won't duplicate.
Additive for your fuel so it doesn't freeze..it can be bought in shops locally and added like redex or if you fill up in the mountains will be in your fuel. This is important if you are leaving the car as you plan and it's cold.
I keep a Noco GB70 jump pack in the car, it's small and powerful, and as said you can't underestimate the power required from your main battery also, if it's old change it!
Most important thing is breakdown imo! I can't stress enough without this you could really end up having a ruined trip. Having had several breakdowns in Europe over the years including in the south of Italy that needed repatriating back to the UK..it's something that can't be ignored.
I use ethical breakdown who also cover older cars https://my.eta.co.uk/breakdown/vehicle/quote/
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Put an anti ‘pine martin’ audio/light device in. 3 times in the past few years I’ve had electronics problems traced back to those Fitzwilliams chewing through stuff.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I used to take my little Rover Streetwise to the Alps most years ending last year ( Ive changed it(160k miles and15 years old) The only troubles I had were ...diesel geling up ...left outside in Campitello ..got fooled into thinking that ani gel would be in the fuel they put in in Verona ..it wasnt..I now treat any diesel with anti gel myself now...and battery failure also in Campitello (another year)..it did not like the cold and it cost a FORTUNE for the local garage to put a new one in but other than that I did not have any trouble I had snow tyres and had to use the chains ony once.....oh yes ..and lock de icer one year the petrol filler cap lock froze and I had to heat the key up to get it to work!
oh yes and WD40 is NOT recommended for locks ...use a proper lock lubricant like graphite oil....
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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It really depends on what you will do with the car when you get there to Italy. If you leave it in an outdoor car park for a week at altitude, then get a portable battery jump starter. Cheap lithium ion ones from China from about £40 are very efficient and work well once you can fathom the instructions.
Get a complete brake check before you go, as going up and down altitude will put stress on the engine and the brakes.
Diesel freezes at -20c, so again if you leave outside you need to fill up close to ski resort as they will have correct additives to stop it freezing.
If you park in covered heated car park, then all of the above concerns will be obliterated. Also if you wait until just after midday before leaving, it should be warmed up.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Startrescue (breakdown insurance)
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Aside from the normal equipment that everyone needs chains, mat, torch etc...). Just make sure your battery is good, and all the glow plugs work. Loads of people drive old diesels in the alps all winter with no special treatment.
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One point on the Anti - Gel for Diesels. Buy it here and take a spare bottle as well! The year the French Alps were hit with a sudden -30c snap garages there sold out quickly - fortunately I was on my way over and managed to buy a case here before I left which was gratefully received by folk based out there.
Also neat screen wash BUT only put it in when you are near the alps, and check the label some of it here is only good to -10c. Lidl usually have some German stuff that's good for -60c in their jumble sale section around December time.
Some aerosol screen de-icer and a good windscreen scraper, quite often the car glass will be subject to freeze thaw and you end up with a layer of hard ice on the screen covered by a layer of frost. (Keep the aerosol in the apartment - dont leave anything in the car that the cold will affect.)
On older cars I have seen the locals actually remove their windscreen wipers and take them indoors when harsh conditions are forecast.
As @Bigtipper, says above indoor car parks save a lot of bother even if you only put the car in there the day before you leave.
Top tip - dont use a steel shovel to get snow off the windscreen no matter how deep the snow is, at best you might bend a wiper arm, at worst there are lots of other bits that could get gouged or damaged ... 
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Park in gear, release handbrake - mechanical and electro types, lift wipers off screens.
I take my battery out of my 2016 VW car when I travel on boat in summer for 5ish months and lock car mechanically. When I reconnect there are all the warning lights from the various systems and keys reconfigure. They self clear after a 1/2 mile drive. Did the same with my 2001 VW diesel. It still had an alarm system that would flatten the battery after a few weeks. But fewer system lights.
I've also needed a Hostess dish/plate warmer to slide under sump to warm oil to permit engine to start!! Was 1987 and -30c though
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Check your breakdown cover to see whether it abandons you if cost of repair is greater than value of car… with a 19yr old fiat, a clause like this renders the cover worthless.
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Check the breakdown cover even covers a 19 year old car a lot won't
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Never driven to the alps, but if parking for a long or cold period causes the alarm system to drain the battery, don't bother to turn it on. (removal of fuel pump fuse is a good immobilizer).
A piece if dpc membrane will stop the windscreen freezing if parked outside.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I got caught out when I parked on a steep uphill incline. The tank was only ¼-full. I couldn't start the car, but was fortunately able to roll it back and face downhill. It turned out that diesels, especially turbos, are prone to not being able to prime with enough pressure if the fuel tank has a large void, due to back pressure. So the message is to fill up near your destination, for both the low-temp additives and to minimise back pressure, and avoid parking facing uphill.
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Tip if you are driving up a snowy hill in a front wheel drive car and lose traction. Turn round and reverse up; there will be more weight on the driving wheels.
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You know it makes sense.
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@colinstone, that does presume that the driver can reverse their car appropriately ... 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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There's other contingency you can employ before the above.
In front wheel drive configuration when you loose traction it's going to be one wheel ordinarily with the other one (gripping) receiving no torque that stops you. In effect, one spinning and no torque gives approx zero wheel drive.
It's the nature of an open differential that when one wheel looses traction, all of the torque then goes out that way in it's entirety. Very similar to one person jumping off a seesaw  they are very effective with equal traction, but take away that equilibrium and the device doesn't work well.
If while one wheel spins, gently push the brake pedal VERY GENTLY with constant pressure it will bring the torque requirements of both drive shafts to an equal status, at which point both wheels will drive at the same pace which may be enough to get and keep you moving along.
It's still dependent on tire traction like anything in these conditions, but it can just help you through an awkward bit.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I have had ten Europe trips in my old 1938 car and covered 30,000 miles but all in spring or summer. However there are a few things that I would recommend and the first is a lithium jump pack like a few others have suggested. They are really small and really pack a punch these days. The other tip would be to take gaffer tape and if you can find it, tape that can be used on hoses. I bought some in France years ago and had to use it twice. Once was to seal a hole in a petrol tank. It was bituminous and the petrol softened it and sealed the hole. I then held it in place with gaffer tape. Quiksteel would be a good addition as well. A small tool kit with Mole Grips and also a length of tube to act as a lever on the wheelbrace if you need to change a wheel.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Firstly a 19 year old car is a 2002, so still a modern car. If it's well looked after (no advisories left over from MOT, regular servicing). There is no more worry than a year old car. Probably less, less unnecassary electronics, especially the sort that detects a minor problem and refuses to run!
You don't say when you will be going, makes a difference. Dead of winter (Chrismass through start of half term) good inter diesel is more important. Also fighting your way up a unfamiliar road in the dark and snow is very different sun and slush.
A battery disconnect is only neccessary if it's being left for 2 weeks or more. I think the collective can only be of more help with more info. Location , aproxamative dates etc.
I bought my wife a 2002 Suzuki Jimny last autumn it was very much of the cheaper end of the market. But after fighting with it sufficiently to get through the CT (MOT here in France). I'd have more faith in it than a new rental car. More than once I was left stranded driving brand new transfer vans due to computer says no!......luckily with no clients on board (athough I have had to rescue others who were fully loaded)
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@ski3,
If while one wheel spins, gently push the brake pedal VERY GENTLY with constant pressure it will bring the torque requirements of both drive shafts to an equal status, at which point both wheels will drive at the same pace which may be enough to get and keep you moving along.
Brilliant, never thought of that!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
If while one wheel spins, gently push the brake pedal VERY GENTLY with constant pressure it will bring the torque requirements of both drive shafts to an equal status, at which point both wheels will drive at the same pace which may be enough to get and keep you moving along.
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I cannot figure out how that works. Surely the gripping wheel is equally braked and the torgue difference is the same as before. Traction control systems brake the spinning wheel to allow more torque to be applied to the gripping wheel. You get a fantasic smell of burning brakes if you do this for any length of time. Anyway, my car's manual tells you to turn off the traction and stability control systems in snow.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| johnE wrote: |
| Quote: |
If while one wheel spins, gently push the brake pedal VERY GENTLY with constant pressure it will bring the torque requirements of both drive shafts to an equal status, at which point both wheels will drive at the same pace which may be enough to get and keep you moving along.
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I cannot figure out how that works. Surely the gripping wheel is equally braked and the torgue difference is the same as before. Traction control systems brake the spinning wheel to allow more torque to be applied to the gripping wheel. You get a fantasic smell of burning brakes if you do this for any length of time. Anyway, my car's manual tells you to turn off the traction and stability control systems in snow. |
Also very interested in this. I'm guessing using the brake would trick the traction control into giving you an effective locking diff?
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| johnE wrote: |
| Quote: |
If while one wheel spins, gently push the brake pedal VERY GENTLY with constant pressure it will bring the torque requirements of both drive shafts to an equal status, at which point both wheels will drive at the same pace which may be enough to get and keep you moving along.
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I cannot figure out how that works. Surely the gripping wheel is equally braked and the torgue difference is the same as before. Traction control systems brake the spinning wheel to allow more torque to be applied to the gripping wheel. You get a fantasic smell of burning brakes if you do this for any length of time. Anyway, my car's manual tells you to turn off the traction and stability control systems in snow. |
Because the brake system has parity across the "axle" which doesn't increase the effort of the brake caliper at the stationary wheel, it gets to the point where brake force parity takes priority over the tire traction ( effectively tire traction is no longer "seen" by the differential leverage) and both wheels start to turn. As mentioned, you need to apply the brake very gently and constantly while holding throttle on to slowly bring that balance.
Older rear wheel drive vehicles with cable operated handbrake (not newer type electric park brakes) will do the same. You could just gently squeeze on more brake until they reached equilibrium to drive both wheels.
As already noted above in posts, modern traction control is modulating individual wheels to do the same but with probably more efficient deployment. If you feel this on front wheel drive when very slippery the car staggers uphill like an old drunk as it shuffles the brake force to each wheel.
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If the Fiat (which is the abbreviation for Fires In All Temperatures) uses mechanical injection (rather than electronic common rail) the old trick in Italy was not to use additive but to first put about 5% of the total fill in as regular petrol and then top it off with diesel. In other words, if I was going to put a total of 60 litres in, I would make it 3 litres of regular petrol and 57 or so of diesel. Doing this I never had a problem in my Mk 1 Golf.
Thinking of additives, the additive must always go into the tank first and then the fuel. Also, the fuel must not be very cold - if the outside temperature is cold enough to make you think of waxing you must fill with fuel from an underground tank. Most tanks are underground but I think the filling station near the Tignes Dam (for example) is open air.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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All the above suggestions are very sensible, but I feel we're missing out the obvious one. In a vehicle that doubles in value by filling the petrol/diesel tank, there is another, cheaper way.
Before you go, locate all the VIN numbers, and grind all but one off. Leave the most easily visible one in tact - in the unlikely event you make it home you'll need it to get another years MOT. Leave the one the MOT tester uses. If your windows are etched with either VIN or Reg numbers, get them polished off too. Belt braces is to remove serial numbers from gearbox and differential too - no-one ever checks these when they buy a 'new' car, or get an MOT.
The only tools you then need to take with you are a screwdriver, and perhaps a battery powered grinder. Then just set of for the alps.
If the wretched thing breaks down whilst you're in the alps, use the screwdriver to remover the number plates, and the angle grinder to remove the one remaining VIN number. If it'll get you to an airport, park in the most expensive car park - usually short stay. Else you'll need to hitch/beg/borrow or steal a lift to the airport. And fly home.
No ID remaining on the car, so no carpark fees, fines or other comebacks from whatever authorities get the hump. Eventually they'll dispose of the car for you, and you can use the money saved by not servicing/winterising your car as suggested above to buy next years wreck.
Sorted.
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| johnE wrote: |
| Quote: |
If while one wheel spins, gently push the brake pedal VERY GENTLY with constant pressure it will bring the torque requirements of both drive shafts to an equal status, at which point both wheels will drive at the same pace which may be enough to get and keep you moving along.
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I cannot figure out how that works. Surely the gripping wheel is equally braked and the torgue difference is the same as before. Traction control systems brake the spinning wheel to allow more torque to be applied to the gripping wheel. You get a fantasic smell of burning brakes if you do this for any length of time. Anyway, my car's manual tells you to turn off the traction and stability control systems in snow. |
It's likely that this technique only works with cars with basic ABS rather than full traction control/anti-skid systems. Same as turning off TCS in snow - basic systems work better with it off, more advanced ones work better with it on. I well remember back in the 90's my Ford Mondeo with traction control would just brake the spinning wheels on snow until the engine stalled. Turn the traction off and it would happily spin its way up a hill. On my current Audi Quattro, the handbook specifically says to leave the TCS on in snow.
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FAQ
