Another great video from Deb Armstrong that is worth sharing widely. I post as it resonates 10,000% with the way I teach and look at performance skiing and some of the points she makes are contrary to what is delivered by many instructor associations. You can work on your hip mobility off skis and make dramatic improvements in your carving with this simple exercise.
@skimottaret, that’s nice. Like the demo where she steps backwards up the stairs, hadn’t thought of that before. Last half dozen sessions I’ve run at Hemel have all looked at hip position, so might have this explanation from Deb Armstrong on my laptop for use during video feedback sessions.
Not entirely convinced about strapping the pelvis in to the ski poles, great for awareness of what’s going on but from first hand experience there’s some potential of things getting messy if it goes wrong!
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Not HSE approved walking backwards up a staircase in ski boots!
The visual is good - is it right to think of dropping one hip back though to maintain level hips?
- is it right to think of dropping one hip back though to maintain level hips?
Dropping in which direction? I think there’s a danger in using that word as a very common problem is skiers who are trying very hard to create high edge angles but end up dropping and twisting their hips in to the turn (a “hip dump”). Rather than creating higher edge angles they flatten the outside ski and end up in the backseat, the opposite of what they were trying to achieve.
The other common cause of hips tipped in the wrong direction is skiers who bank in to the turn, so shoulders and hips drop to the inside. Sometimes happens asymmetrically, on the weaker turn side but not the stronger turn side.
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Thanks @skimottaret I do follow her but hadn't seen this one.
@rob@rar, yeah I have used stairs and benches to demo but laterally, never thought about the stepping back and up. I really like it as it restricts hip counter. When I ask people to do long leg short leg by stepping sideways up onto a bench they invariably counter massively. Also see a lot of advanced skiers who are runners and cyclists who are very blocky and stiff in the hip joint and I think this off snow movement could assist.
@Dave of the Marmottes, less of dropping the inside hip back but more keeping the outer side of the pelvis square to the skis as long as you can until edge angle gets high. 1:50 - 2:18 describes it perfectly. There are different ways to drill this in and somewhat depends on the skiers issues.
By stepping up and back she stops excessive counter of the hip and promotes correct lateral seperation. Try doing the up and back on a stair as she demos and then try it again by turning 90 degrees and keep lower foot on the floor and upper leg a stair or two and I bet you will rotate the hip and counter more.
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The two pole spit roast I dont use in case of a crash but I like how she explains that the poles should be kept on the pelvis and not on the waist in order to really highlight actual hip position. I usually have people press a pole onto their pointy bits of the pelvis (iliac crest) when videoing so we get a clear picture of actual hip position.
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skimottaret wrote:
@rob@rar, yeah I have used stairs and benches to demo but laterally, never thought about the stepping back and up. I really like it as it restricts hip counter. When I ask people to do long leg short leg by stepping sideways up onto a bench they invariably counter massively. Also see a lot of advanced skiers who are runners and cyclists who are very blocky and stiff in the hip joint and I think this off snow movement could assist.
Yes, often get bemused glances from other people when I demo hip alignment upstairs in the cafe at Hemel
Back in the day I was taught to imagine placing one buttock cheek up on a bar stool. Fine in theory, but always seemed to involve an instinctive hip counter (in a bar as well as on skis) so not sure that was a helpful bit of visualisation, so I’ve never used it in my teaching. Deb’s stepping backwards up a step seems to work much better in that regard.
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skimottaret wrote:
I usually have people press a pole onto their pointy bits of the pelvis (iliac crest) when videoing so we get a clear picture of actual hip position.
Ditto, although keeping the pole(s) on the iliac crest is often more of a challenge than it should be.
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Ah so I finally understand what a hip dump is - it's the twisty pelvis she talks about?
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@Dave of the Marmottes, Not quite, for me "hip dumping" is when someone tries to achieve angulation/lateral separation by ACTIVELY overdoing the movement of the hip to the inside. That overly active move can manifest in a twisty pelvis as well as an aft position through bending zee knees too much. The hip should stay level with the lateral separation coming in progressively as you soften the inside leg keeping pressure on the outer ski. When you dump your hip you lose pressure on the outside ski and usually get on the inside half and sit back.
One reason why I don't usually use "tea pot" or "superman" drills with clients. People tend to move the hip too aggressively to the inside as opposed to just softening the inside leg whilst keeping a long strong outer leg with the hips level and square through solid core tension. When you "dump" your hip you lose tension in the core and pressure on the outside ski.
I tend to try to explain it to people as keeping the inside hip "high" and pushing down with the outside hip. Does that make sense?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
skimottaret wrote:
@Dave of the Marmottes, Not quite, for me "hip dumping" is when someone tries to achieve angulation/lateral separation by ACTIVELY overdoing the movement of the hip to the inside.
Agree, actively overdoing that move (usually subconsciously) is what creates a hip dump, which for me needs to too far inside and excessively countered (twisted to face too far outside the turn) to qualify for the 'hip dump' label.
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skimottaret wrote:
@Dave of the Marmottes, Not quite, for me "hip dumping" is when someone tries to achieve angulation/lateral separation by ACTIVELY overdoing the movement of the hip to the inside. That overly active move can manifest in a twisty pelvis as well as an aft position through bending zee knees too much. The hip should stay level with the lateral separation coming in progressively as you soften the inside leg keeping pressure on the outer ski. When you dump your hip you lose pressure on the outside ski and usually get on the inside half and sit back.
One reason why I don't usually use "tea pot" or "superman" drills with clients. People tend to move the hip too aggressively to the inside as opposed to just softening the inside leg whilst keeping a long strong outer leg with the hips level and square through solid core tension. When you "dump" your hip you lose tension in the core and pressure on the outside ski.
I tend to try to explain it to people as keeping the inside hip "high" and pushing down with the outside hip. Does that make sense?
Yeah I think so - but I wish you'd posted this before the weekend so I'd have been able to work out what it felt like on snow
I don't consciously think of doing anything with my hips I just tend to think in terms of low or high base angle and keeping my upper body separated. Which I think if I'm following things correctly is better than thinking "get that hip low to get more aggressive".
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@Dave of the Marmottes, Overflexing at the knee joint to get the "hip low and aggressive" can result in hip dumping, by TRYING to get the hip low you are most likely overflexing at the knee joint and losing pressure on the outside half. If you are able to PROGESSIVELY increase your edge angles to the point of dragging your hip on the deck you are onto something
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Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
I don't consciously think of doing anything with my hips I just tend to think in terms of low or high base angle and keeping my upper body separated. Which I think if I'm following things correctly is better than thinking "get that hip low to get more aggressive".
My skiing, especially high-angle long radius turns, improved significantly when I stopped trying to be aggressive with getting big edge angles and focus more on getting a strong stance/platform at the beginning of the turn (which is the opposite of a hip dump). When I did that, I was able to work more effectively with the g-forces developing as the turn progressed, ultimately getting much higher edge angle in the load phase of the turn than I was capable of when I used to aggressively snap at the start of the turn.
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Thanks for linking the vid, huskydave is always trying to stop me from dropping my outside hip back, will have to try thinking about it like this next time I'm at the fridge and see if it helps.
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The one thing that is messing with my head is that on the stairs her inside foot is back a step (let's say 30cm behind front foot) yet we know inner tip lead happens?
Does this somehow eliminate or reduce inner tip lead?
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Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
The one thing that is messing with my head is that on the stairs her inside foot is back a step (let's say 30cm behind front foot) yet we know inner tip lead happens?
Does this somehow eliminate or reduce inner tip lead?
If your hip stays strong and level you are not going to have excessive inner tip lead (excessive being the key word). If you dump your hip your outside foot is going to be too far behind your inside foot (because your hips are twisted too much to the outside of the turn), hence excessive inner tip lead, and a not very strong platform to work with the forces generated by a high edge-angle turn.
Tried this on the stairs last night - conclusion need to move to a palace with a wider staircase to achieve anything meaningful
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I have a tendency while waiting for ski bags to be delivered at airports to stand with my hands on my hips and roll from one set of shoe "edges" to the other, making a "c" shape. Get's the hips moving. I know I'm odd.
@jedster, seems perfectly normal to me, and a useful use of 'down' time.
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jedster wrote:
I have a tendency while waiting for ski bags to be delivered at airports to stand with my hands on my hips and roll from one set of shoe "edges" to the other, making a "c" shape. Get's the hips moving. I know I'm odd.
How often does that lead to "expressions of interest" from people who misconstrue you wiggling your ass in the airport?
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@jedster, not that odd. I do that, and similar, while teaching! Especially while students doing group work and not paying me any attention (assuming they do the rest of the time)
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rob@rar wrote:
jedster wrote:
I have a tendency while waiting for ski bags to be delivered at airports to stand with my hands on my hips and roll from one set of shoe "edges" to the other, making a "c" shape. Get's the hips moving. I know I'm odd.
How often does that lead to "expressions of interest" from people who misconstrue you wiggling your ass in the airport?
mainly just groans from teenage children telling me not to be embarrassing
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@jedster,
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When @skimottaret first introduced me to this a year or two back I didn't get the movement pattern at all. I'm naturally a very stable hip kind of guy. The thing I worked on to learn the movement was standing sideways on the bottom stair with the lower foot dangling off the edge and then try to lower that foot to the floor without bending the upper knee. It took a couple of weeks of practice before that movement became natural. This is kind of the opposite to the one in the video as she's lifting a hip and stepping backwards whereas I'm dropping the other one, but we end up in the same position, and it helped me get my head around what I needed to do.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
If @@kieranm, doesn't mind here is a video of him working on getting a high inside hip to improve his skiing. I think the good work he did in a few sessions coupled with some practice and mobility work as he described made for a very solid change in his skiing. Viewing his development in conjunction with the opening post highlights just how important hip alignment is.
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Mon 8-01-24 13:14; edited 1 time in total
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Some more Hip related video from Deb A., again I couldn't agree more with this as I see sooooo many advanced skiers dumping their hips and overflexing at the knees
Excellent video - pulling together concepts from some of her other videos. Subtle changes can make a substantial difference.
Once again, I'm stealing it to put on my Analysis thread (so I can find it again).
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@skimottaret, wow, light bulb moment for me there (which, coincidentally, links with a Pilates exercise I was doing yesterday) namely that you will only get real power from the 'long' leg if your foot is aft of your hip. That car-pushing analogy was SO clear. Thank you.
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Really interesting video, and I really like Deb's videos. Will give this a go, and try and put this in to practise when i'm next back out at the end of March.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Thanks for posting. Will try and develop this theme.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
OMG! Good point, well argued. This really is going up memory lane.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Im confused , where does she say inner tip lead is "positively necessary"? A bit of tip lead is a consequence of developing bigger edge angles through a short inside leg resulting in a slightly countered hip but not a movement pattern to actively work to achieve... She talks about driving the inner knee, which I didn't think was the best analogy as it could imply to the learner shuffling the inner leg forward. I usually tell people to try to kneel onto the tip of the ski, or suck the inside foot back to promote ankle flex..... In driving the inner knee she was trying to get the pupil to bend zee inner ankle and engage the little toe edge and shorten the inner leg. He did it well and didn't end up shuffling/ splitting the skis...
Love the sprinter analogy will be knicking that one
If one foot/binding is well behind the other (in order to push the car in the demo with the baby) then there is bound to be one tip well in front of the other, isn't there?
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pam w wrote:
If one foot/binding is well behind the other (in order to push the car in the demo with the baby) then there is bound to be one tip well in front of the other, isn't there?
My interpretation was that the analogy was exaggerated to demonstrate the “power” required for the downhill ski through the apex of the turn and thus enabling tighter turns (as opposed to slightly wider, carved turns that are more ‘relaxed’). Drawing (or pulling) one’s inside ski back creates ankle flex and a stable, all round platform but, inevitably, there is some inner tip lead….from my view, unavoidable. At least, I think I’ve got that right…
One of the things I’ve tried working on is getting the uphill ski to be less of a passenger and engaging it more….positively throughout the turn. The ‘driving the uphill knee’ made sense to me….hopefully
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yes, I think I got that completely back to front..... confused. There's a marked outside tip lead on the still in the middle of the initial video. The short leg is on the inside of the turn - and that's the one @skimottaret is telling us to "kneel on"? to bring that hip forward and avoid too much counter?
I think I am going to have to sit in my chair with eyes closed and just envisage this. That worked quite well for me when I envisaged foot steering on a snowboard - one foot pressing down on the toe, the other on the heel. I could do it splendidly in the dentist's chair during a long root canal job. Not quite so flawless on the hill, but it did help....
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Have to say I find some of these "ski tips" videos really overcomplicate things for me.
Maybe I am too long in the tooth, but it all feels a bit emperors new clothes sometimes.............
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pam w wrote:
yes, I think I got that completely back to front..... confused. There's a marked outside tip lead on the still in the middle of the initial video. The short leg is on the inside of the turn - and that's the one @skimottaret is telling us to "kneel on"? to bring that hip forward and avoid too much counter?
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