 Poster: A snowHead
|
Hi guys.
I had around 60 ski days in the past 3 years and now I feel very comfortable on piste on any conditions and this season I want try off piste.
I'll book a course for January(probably Verbier) and as I already have my own boots and piste ski, I'm planning to buy new skis for powder, probably something in the 100-105 width.
Last year I got a new boot that after MANY adjustments, fits me perfect now, that boot is a regular alpine one, so no tech inserts.
As I am not looking to get new boots now but probably will do some kind of touring in the near future, I thought about getting a ski with frame bindings but I see that they are being used less and less.
I understand that frame bindings are not the best for uphill performance but at least for the next 2 years I don't see myself doing long(more than 2 hours) of uphill touring.
For the first 2 years I'll probably ski powder near resort access, that means I can get a lift so no need to walk all the way up there every time.
Are frame bindings still an option or is that too old for today's technology ? After I get some experience maybe I can get new boots exclusive for off piste, but that will take a while.
Cheers!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| AndreSilva wrote: |
I understand that frame bindings are not the best for uphill performance |
Unfortunately ski touring is the new golf with lots of rich people spending a lot of money on stuff they don't always need.
I bet I would tour uphill on frame bindings faster than 90% of people on Dynafiddles. Given there are some cheap deals on frame bindings (markers) they remain an option and uphill performance is more down to your own fitness. If you are touring with people on tech bindings just follow in their tracks and let them do the work.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
@AndreSilva, Frame bindings are fine, especially if you have well fitting alpine boots. Im not a very good ski tourer but have done many 4+ hour session on race boots, marker dukes and heavy Volkl mantra skis. tired me out but were bullet proof 
If you really get into touring pin boots are much nicer but for the odd few hours dont bother and they are cheap
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
I have to agree with davidof on this one. The marginal weight saving will in no way be reflected in your uphill performance. Quite simply there are so many aspects to efficient uphill work ( particularly during early stages of touring career) that "binding" weight should not be one to worry about!!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| Rogerdodger wrote: |
| I have to agree with davidof on this one. The marginal weight saving will in no way be reflected in your uphill performance. Quite simply there are so many aspects to efficient uphill work ( particularly during early stages of touring career) that "binding" weight should not be one to worry about!! |
I agree... even if I could save 2kg in binding weight, I am a 100kg guy, quite strong and can do squats with 100+kg, so I guess a 2% increase in my overall weight will not be a big deal to my legs 
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Wed 22-09-21 14:37; edited 2 times in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Yes - and as a bonus youcan ski on them all day inbounds (piste) and not suffer for it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Frame bindings are fine. They ski better then tech bindings, but are a bit harder on way up, heavier and also pivots are on different place, so walking up is worse then with tech bindings. But they are fine, regardless what people say. I did plenty of tours with 125mm skis and Marker Duke (tours with 2000+m of ascend ), when conditions were right for those skis. But what will be problem is not binding but your boot selection. That, contrary to binding selection, is simply no go. It's not weight but simply that there's no way you will have pleasant day out in normal alpine boots. I use super stiff race boots for everything, and I love them more then any other boot, but as soon as I need to skin up, I never take those boots and go with boots that are meant to be used for ski touring. So regardless of all, get frame binding, it's no problem, but get ski touring capable boots, otherwise you will hate ski touring. And it's too nice thing to hate it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| primoz wrote: |
| Frame bindings are fine. They ski better then tech bindings, but are a bit harder on way up, heavier and also pivots are on different place, so walking up is worse then with tech bindings. But they are fine, regardless what people say. I did plenty of tours with 125mm skis and Marker Duke (tours with 2000+m of ascend ), when conditions were right for those skis. But what will be problem is not binding but your boot selection. That, contrary to binding selection, is simply no go. It's not weight but simply that there's no way you will have pleasant day out in normal alpine boots. I use super stiff race boots for everything, and I love them more then any other boot, but as soon as I need to skin up, I never take those boots and go with boots that are meant to be used for ski touring. So regardless of all, get frame binding, it's no problem, but get ski touring capable boots, otherwise you will hate ski touring. And it's too nice thing to hate it. |
Although my boots are not touring boots, they have a walking mode... does that help ?
This is the one: https://www.fischersports.com/ranger-one-130-vacuum-walk-1490
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| davidof wrote: |
| We were generally covering 600 meters climbing, around 450 m/h and he lived to tell the tale. |
But did he complain too much? 
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
primoz, you are clearly a keen and experienced ski tourer. A pro.
But some of us just do a bit of touring, every now and then. Amateurs.
It is possible to enjoy ski touring in ordinary downhill boots (and old fashioned bindings): just undo the clips.
We may not go as fast or for so long, but we can do any of the standard day tours around Val d'Isere and Tignes. (Just not every day.)
Then, as AndreSilva says: if you find you want to take it seriously, you can get some proper touring boots (and probably pin bindings).
Suck it and see, I suggest.
Edit: agree with Davidof.
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Wed 22-09-21 16:16; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| AndreSilva wrote: |
| davidof wrote: |
| We were generally covering 600 meters climbing, around 450 m/h and he lived to tell the tale. |
But did he complain too much? |
have you heard adolescents? After a while you learn to filter out the continued moaning about everything.
As it was climb or don't ski, he decided climbing wasn't so bad after all and much better than the dreaded ski de fond.
I don't know where his limit was for climbing. We did 700m towards the end of the season. I don't think he had any blisters. The biggest limit early on was convincing him that he needed light clothing to climb in.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
Tried touring for the first time this year, during one of our many lockdowns. Rented some Black Crows Camox Freebirds with Marker F12 frame bindings. Used my 130 flex alpine boots.
Had a blast. Much easier to use than expected and I was pleasantly surprised how well I could move uphill on them. Okay, I was only climbing relatively mild slopes, with each climb taking about 40 - 50min to attain about 200m in altitude. It was easy to switch from uphill to downhill mode, and the binding felt solid on the downhill.
I guess there are many considerations on whether to go for frame or pin bindings. Are you going out for 4 or 5 hour climbs, or maybe overnighters? In that case, maybe weight is critical to you. How often are you going to tour, versus downhill? If the answer is “occasionally” then maybe frames might be better, especially if you have a pair of alpine boots that fit really well (and you are not ready to start the boot fitting journey again). Etc etc
Interestingly, the guy who rented the skis also works as a BC tour guide in Japan. He uses frames. His comment, “we take cable ties and tape with us, and can usually work up a repair for a broken binding sufficiently well to get home”. “If you break a pin binding in the BC, you are not coming home on your skis!”
I will be buying an AT setup, with frame bindings, when new stock arrives. There was almost nothing left in Australia by August. I enjoyed the touring, and I am sure the lockdowns will continue, so adding AT to my toolkit.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| AndreSilva wrote: |
| primoz wrote: |
| Frame bindings are fine. They ski better then tech bindings, but are a bit harder on way up, heavier and also pivots are on different place, so walking up is worse then with tech bindings. But they are fine, regardless what people say. I did plenty of tours with 125mm skis and Marker Duke (tours with 2000+m of ascend ), when conditions were right for those skis. But what will be problem is not binding but your boot selection. That, contrary to binding selection, is simply no go. It's not weight but simply that there's no way you will have pleasant day out in normal alpine boots. I use super stiff race boots for everything, and I love them more then any other boot, but as soon as I need to skin up, I never take those boots and go with boots that are meant to be used for ski touring. So regardless of all, get frame binding, it's no problem, but get ski touring capable boots, otherwise you will hate ski touring. And it's too nice thing to hate it. |
Although my boots are not touring boots, they have a walking mode... does that help ?
This is the one: https://www.fischersports.com/ranger-one-130-vacuum-walk-1490 |
They are (relatively light) Freeride boots so will be fine for touring on frame bindings. If you are fit you shouldn’t have any problems. If you are skiing in Verbier most of the good terrain is accessed by hiking, rather than skinning so that will be a better setup than lighter touring boots and pin bindings
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
Main difference with proper touring boots is ability to "rotate" cuff back. When you push your leg front, your leg gets extended forward and rotates in ankle so that ankle is infront of knee. Touring boots allow this, alpine boots with walk mode allows this to certain degree and pure alpine boots have no chance to allow this due their forward lean position way under 90 degrees. And this is the thing that makes skinning up super uncomfortable, even if boots are unclipped. Uncliping helps when leg is on end of stride, but not when it's on front, on start of stride. Hope this makes sense, as English is not my language so describing such things is not always so easy.
Of course it can be done in pure alpine boots too. My favorite skiing boots are pure race boots Rossi Hero World cup ZE, which means stiffer then anything you ever saw (ZE is not available even in race stores ), and I use them for powder skiing too, when I go with lifts. And if there's need to climb 100 or 200m on foot (climbing on foot or skinning up) I still do it in these boots, so it can be done. But for pure ski touring, I would get another pair of boots. I was never fan of super light skimo boots (not race boots as those are in rang of heavy xc skiing boots ), but something like Dynafit TLT. Those are really great for up, but for me, skiing down is still main thing, so I rather have some heavier boots, but which are still proper ski touring boots with full range of motion. Weight itself is never an issue for me. Sure it goes faster and easier with lighter equipment, but if you are not racing (and I quit my racing career 20 years ago), it really doesn't matter if you are up 5min faster or slower. So weight is not really an issue, and if it is for someone, train some more during summer 
But yeah things for me are most likely slightly different... first I get my equipment for free, second, I'm living in middle of the Alps, so I don't need to carry 5 pairs of skis and 3 pairs of boots on plane, but I just pick right pair for the day from basement and put it in car and drive to nearby resort/terrain.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| ulmerhutte wrote: |
... with Marker F12 frame bindings. Used my 130 flex alpine boots.
... Okay, I was only climbing relatively mild slopes, with each climb taking about 40 - 50min to attain about 200m in altitude. |
That is basically my setup, thanks for the info!
My boot is a 130 flex as well and it has a walking mode, I'm also looking for the Marker F12.
I will do some mild uphills like you said, nothing too extreme for sure!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| BobinCH wrote: |
| AndreSilva wrote: |
| primoz wrote: |
| Frame bindings are fine. They ski better then tech bindings, but are a bit harder on way up, heavier and also pivots are on different place, so walking up is worse then with tech bindings. But they are fine, regardless what people say. I did plenty of tours with 125mm skis and Marker Duke (tours with 2000+m of ascend ), when conditions were right for those skis. But what will be problem is not binding but your boot selection. That, contrary to binding selection, is simply no go. It's not weight but simply that there's no way you will have pleasant day out in normal alpine boots. I use super stiff race boots for everything, and I love them more then any other boot, but as soon as I need to skin up, I never take those boots and go with boots that are meant to be used for ski touring. So regardless of all, get frame binding, it's no problem, but get ski touring capable boots, otherwise you will hate ski touring. And it's too nice thing to hate it. |
Although my boots are not touring boots, they have a walking mode... does that help ?
This is the one: https://www.fischersports.com/ranger-one-130-vacuum-walk-1490 |
They are (relatively light) Freeride boots so will be fine for touring on frame bindings. If you are fit you shouldn’t have any problems. If you are skiing in Verbier most of the good terrain is accessed by hiking, rather than skinning so that will be a better setup than lighter touring boots and pin bindings |
I remember when I bought it, my boot fitter said that if I wanted to tour with them they were not so heavy... at that time I didn't know much about pin/frame bindings, so I just nodded
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| primoz wrote: |
| But yeah things for me are most likely slightly different... first I get my equipment for free, second, I'm living in middle of the Alps, so I don't need to carry 5 pairs of skis and 3 pairs of boots on plane, but I just pick right pair for the day from basement and put it in car and drive to nearby resort/terrain. |
That is the dream my friend!!!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
Well... after all those messages I made up my mind.
I will go for the Marker F12 or similar frame binding. As my boots have a walking mode I guess it helps a bit more, if I really enjoy it I will get new boots and maybe pin bindings in the future.
Thanks guys!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| AndreSilva wrote: |
Well... after all those messages I made up my mind.
I will go for the Marker F12 or similar frame binding. As my boots have a walking mode I guess it helps a bit more, if I really enjoy it I will get new boots and maybe pin bindings in the future.
Thanks guys! |
I asked my son, who has similar boots to yours. He told me he does all the clips up loosely and has the boots in walk mode, that avoided any blisters. When he tried to tour with the top clips/power strap undone his foot moved and he got blisters.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| davidof wrote: |
| I asked my son, who has similar boots to yours. He told me he does all the clips up loosely and has the boots in walk mode, that avoided any blisters. When he tried to tour with the top clips/power strap undone his foot moved and he got blisters. |
Good tips, thanks!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
Back in the day when I started out touring I went for a frame binding for exactly the same reasons. Fritchy Diamir that was. Got blood-filled 1-pound-coin-sized blisters on the inside of both my ankles on my first tour. Also stumbled dangerously on an otherwise very easy ridge. Had to buy proper touring boots. Again to save a few quid I didn't go for the then unrivalled Scarpa Laser. Regretted it immediately afterwards and spent a lot of time and money to change gear.
Weight is one factor. That you work against a spring is another. Main advantage is the much better pivot point with pin bindings.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
The huge advantage of a tech binding is that you're not lifting the weight of the frame/heel every stride. After that it's weight and pivot point. The obvious non frame binding for the OP would be the Shift which is only 120g lighter than a F12 Tour EPF (which, if you're not hucking, is the best frame binding on the market) but the Shift skis/skins better in every respect. But to skin in a Shift you need a tech boot.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
@AndreSilva, Another thing to consider when thinking about buying pin boots is your lower leg morphology. Loads of people say alpine only boots are one dimensional and you should go straight to tech/pin boots with grip walk soles to "future proof" should you decide to get into touring.
If you have bowed legs or knock knees you most likely will need to have your boot cuffs adjusted to conform to your lower legs. Most touring boots DO NOT have adjustable bolts for canting. Being bow legged this was a big problem for me on numerous touring set ups and I ended up having to butcher boots and put in adjustable canting bolts or stick big shims on the inside of the boot sides.
Also worth noting that most alpine race bindings are NOT compatible with Gripwalk. For a big guy rock solid bindings are essential imv. I personally ended up putting alpine soles on my tech boots so I can use with all my skis when I am after a more comfortable cruisey setup.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
I sure agree that Shift bindings will be MUCH better for touring... the thing is that I'm a beginner for off-piste matter, although I might do some touring, that will be a VERY minor part of my activities, like 10%... 20% tops.
Most of my time I'll spend in powder near resort access, so I can get a lift to the top, that's why I'm not worried that the frame bindings are not the best choice right now.
I decided to look for second-hand skis in good conditions with frame bindings... then I can use that for 1 or 2 seasons and then I will switch to the shift binding and proper boots if I really enjoy touring (I'm sure I will  )
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Tue 28-09-21 10:15; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@AndreSilva, good plan
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
| primoz wrote: |
| Frame bindings are fine. They ski better then tech bindings, but are a bit harder on way up, heavier and also pivots are on different place, so walking up is worse then with tech bindings. But they are fine, regardless what people say. |
My Naxos bindings say otherwise with a really nice walking action I am however now looking to move to Shift's as I need new boots anyway.
Personally my view is that over the coming years frame bindings will go the way of the dodo. It costs pennies to put the inserts for pin bindings in the mould for any boots and it has basically zero impact on there performance in a normal Alpine setting. Hell you can convert many boots to pin (for up hill only mind you)
https://casttouring.com/pages/how-the-boot-conversion-works
Then they can be used with various new bindings that offer full alpine downhill with pin uphill, such Shift's, Pindung, CAST and Marker PT. I would hazard within five years there will be very few if any frame bindings left on the market.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| jabuzzard wrote: |
It costs pennies to put the inserts for pin bindings in the mould for any boots and it has basically zero impact on there performance in a normal Alpine setting. Hell you can convert many boots to pin (for up hill only mind you)
https://casttouring.com/pages/how-the-boot-conversion-works |
Wow... I didn't know it was possible to adapt a regular boot to add pins, but they don't really cost pennies... this kit is 220! https://casttouring.com/products/boot-conversion
For that price, I prefer to invest a bit more and buy a brand new boot
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| AndreSilva wrote: |
| jabuzzard wrote: |
It costs pennies to put the inserts for pin bindings in the mould for any boots and it has basically zero impact on there performance in a normal Alpine setting. Hell you can convert many boots to pin (for up hill only mind you)
https://casttouring.com/pages/how-the-boot-conversion-works |
Wow... I didn't know it was possible to adapt a regular boot to add pins, but they don't really cost pennies... this kit is 220! https://casttouring.com/products/boot-conversion
For that price, I prefer to invest a bit more and buy a brand new boot |
That's for conversion of a boot that has already been manufactured. I was talking about putting pin inserts into a ski boot during manufacture being pennies. Basically you would have a piece of diecast metal that you put in the mould prior to injection of the plastic. Maybe add 20p to the bill of materials if that. The manufacturing know how is there as it's how they make touring boots. It is just until recently there has been no reason to have pin inserts in the toes of Alpine boots. The introduction of the Shift changed that calculation and now there is. They will start appearing in due course mark my words.
A further point is I doubt any manufacture is investing in new frame binding designs. They have been made obsolete with Shift style technology. It would be commercial madness to keep at frame designs. Once the tooling is worn out that will be it for frame bindings IMHO.
There is another option of course in the BCA Alpine Trekker or Daymakers
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
If it's got pin inserts in it then I don't think it meets the ISO norm for alpine boot soles. Note with my Lange Freetours was pretty clear on the issue. That said, I used them with no issues in alpine bindings.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| jabuzzard wrote: |
| There is another option of course in the BCA Alpine Trekker or Daymakers |
Known colloquially as "BCA Alpine Wreckers" and "Daybreakers"
Bet it makes a guide's day when someone turns up with those!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
@AndreSilva, I recently moved over to Shifts, and have a set of lightly used Marker F12 Tour EPF sitting in the garage that I was going to advertise in November if you were interested? Not sure of current postal costs to the Netherlands though and haven't thought about price, but will dig them out and take some pics if you are at all interested??
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| kitenski wrote: |
| @AndreSilva, I recently moved over to Shifts, and have a set of lightly used Marker F12 Tour EPF sitting in the garage that I was going to advertise in November if you were interested? Not sure of current postal costs to the Netherlands though and haven't thought about price, but will dig them out and take some pics if you are at all interested?? |
Hi there.
Sure, can you send me a PM with the price ?
Are you selling just the bindings or the set with skis ?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
@AndreSilva, just the bindings.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| kitenski wrote: |
| @AndreSilva, just the bindings. |
OK, send me the price please 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@AndreSilva, do you know your boot size? the bindings are size Small to fit a boot 265mm-325mm
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| kitenski wrote: |
| @AndreSilva, do you know your boot size? the bindings are size Small to fit a boot 265mm-325mm |
Hmm... that's a deal breaker, my boots are 328mm 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@kitenski, Greg, I might be interested for em for use by SkiMottaretJnr can you email or pm me..? Would need to check with Jon if the hole pattern would work over a pair of skis quiver killered for shifts
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
