 Poster: A snowHead
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| Jehu wrote: |
| Gerry, please stop going on about Snowheads and just accept that SCGB customers = SCGB members. I cannot buy a Freshtracks holiday without becoming a member. |
You could join the board of the ski club, but not the board of the likes of Mark Warner. As a member of the ski club you will benefit form any surplus generated by Freshtracks. Not so with a tour operator unless you’ve bought shares.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Raceplate wrote: |
| Pruman wrote: |
| Not really perceptive. Over the years of business life I've had people say to me the likes of "I want this (more money, better territory etc) or I'm leaving" and my response was always the same "bye". Holding people to ransom just ain't cool. |
They're not holding you to ransom or threatening to leave, they're asking you for recognition of their efforts. If you can't see that you don't deserve to be a senior manager. You're supposed to develop the people below you, not show them the door. |
Those who spin that line are usually not that good. The good ones are either recognised for their abilities or manage their advancement in a bit more subtle fashion. If the management can’t see who the good ones are I agree that is on them
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| DJL wrote: |
| Raceplate wrote: |
| Pruman wrote: |
| Not really perceptive. Over the years of business life I've had people say to me the likes of "I want this (more money, better territory etc) or I'm leaving" and my response was always the same "bye". Holding people to ransom just ain't cool. |
They're not holding you to ransom or threatening to leave, they're asking you for recognition of their efforts. If you can't see that you don't deserve to be a senior manager. You're supposed to develop the people below you, not show them the door. |
Those who spin that line are usually not that good. |
Maybe, but that's the point. If your default answer is "bye" then you're making no effort to sort the wheat from the chaff and you shouldn't be in management.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Raceplate, as I said “If the management can’t see who the good ones are I agree that is on them”
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Gerry wrote: |
| j b wrote: |
This thread seems to have degenerated into a fractious argy-bargy about SCGB management, which has its own thread. It started off as an interesting discussion about what a new Ski Club would look like starting from now.
Surprisingly, a lot of the discussion has been about commercial activities which aren't the essence of a "club". If you want insurance go to an insurer, if you want package holidays go to a tour operator - they will have a lot more expertise and already have the necessary legal protections. What a club should provide is the friendship and common cause. Snowheads isn't set up as a club, but if it was (and probably even without being) it could provide genuine benefit in putting people in contact who are in the same resort at the same time, including those knowledgeable about the place who might be able to advise those there for the first time. Maybe linking with people you might find it fun to ski with. And generally providing friendly advice on all manner of things, as it already does.
And if it did become a membership organisation, perhaps it could negotiate modest discounts for members with insurance or travel companies which fitted its ethos - but without having the cost of setting up those commercial operations. |
You start by suggesting that one of the important aspects of joining forces with other people to form a club i.e collective bargaining power, isn’t all that important, then you go on to suggest that it might be a good idea. You seem slightly as odds with yourself. |
It’s NOT important!
It may be a small perk but it’s definitely not important in almost any “club”.
Lots of clubs negotiate a long list of perks: bike clubs negotiate discounts with bike shops for its member. But ask anyone who join the bike club so they can get the discount? Nah. They join the club to share the activities with other like minded people. With or without the perk, they would join if have fun to share with fellow club mates. Without the comradely? The discount isn’t enough to attract members.
Now, if SCGB members join the club just to get the discounts, they could very well leave when another entity (“the internet”?) offers a better discount. Reality being, the holiday landscape had changed enough a lot of people are getting their discount without being in the SCGB. So if they aren’t drawn to the share love of the activity, they don’t need to be a member any more.
This thread is pretty telling, especially for those of us NOT been a member of SCGB. A question about what skiers want in a club, lead to one of the biggest defender of SCGB listing all the commercial activities the club offers. 
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@abc, it’s often said by ski club members, even in here, ‘I get my membership subscription fee back each year in discounts’. In surveys of the membership, discounts have always come in towards the top of reasons people join.
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So just define it as the Wowcher/Groupon of skiing and drop the loss making TO and the non- existant insurer and all the BS of social reps etc?
The population of UK skiers - I will not buy your product because it doesn't do enough for me
SCGB council- But, but,but 10% off. Lots of people who've joined like that 10% off
Tpouks - Whatevah! We want something that works for us ( look elsewhere). See yez!
SCGB council - Why oh why do we bleed members?
Last edited by After all it is free  on Sun 8-08-21 10:06; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I’m one of the lapsed members. For me the only reasons to join a club like the SCGB is to facilitate skiing with people of similar ability and aspirations. That is why I am also a member of clubs for rock climbing, sea kayaking and road cycling. Insurance and discounts are irrelevant to me as I source these elsewhere, eg the BMC.
In the past the leader system worked well and I was a regular at Argentiere leader days and got to know a few other regulars. I’ve done a fair few FT holidays too, most good but some poor (same can be said for the FT Reps). However a major gap was SCGB refusal to facilitate peer to peer messaging and hence facilitate networking, something that Snowheads had from day 1. I believe this was to ensure that members only ski together with a leader/rep to keep the gigs flowing for them. I accept that many members have an aversion to FB etc, but many members would have appreciated it sooner. In fact I’ve used Snowheads to contact and meet up with skiers I originally met via SCGB!!
Despite being a regular supporter of SCGB on these forums as I have had lots of great skiing with it, I’m under no illusion that the SCGB is run purely for the benefit of its reps/leaders and not it’s ordinary members. Without the mutuality ethos I enjoy with my climbing and kayaking clubs there is no reason not to book holidays with Snoworks rather than SCGB. In fact Snoworks now offers a cheaper more reliable product and with a better members FB group. They also seem to do better with a much smaller and cost effective admin team.
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| Gerry wrote: |
| @abc, it’s often said by ski club members, even in here, ‘I get my membership subscription fee back each year in discounts’. In surveys of the membership, discounts have always come in towards the top of reasons people join. |
Naturally, I had to go back to the first post of this long thread:
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It simply and sadly seems irrelevant to a new generations of skiers.
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It’s clear what the current members want (those who haven’t left) is “irrelevant to a new generation of skiers”:
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a club is all about members sharing with others after all.
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So, let SCGB ride into the sunset serving its current members, while the new generation of skiers find their own “club bluesky”
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Can I exercise the issue of "reps"? I agree social reps are a complete nonsense, however ad-hoc, social skiing groups led by knowledgeable (and sensible) leaders is a core benefit / desire from many - current and past members of SCGB, and it is a key way to bring in new. It is just great to be able to turn up to resort - perhaps with family or friends of a different ski standard - meet up with others and ski around the whole mountain, go places you wouldn't find for yourself, have safe off piste groups etc. Contrary to what many have said, Volunteer leading IS legal in France (and elsewhere) ... the reason it is no longer offered by SCGB is 1/ benefits such as lift pass have been classed as non-volunteer by French authorities, so the package for volunteer reps needs to change 2/ the legal risk on reps is not underwritten by SCGB, so official "reps" would be 'brave' (aka foolish) to lead a SCGB group ... in part because 3/ having lost the KP case in France SCGB daren't risk a second case where any sanction would be punitive and the end of SCGB 4/ if there was an accident with a SCGB volunteer leader SCGB would be in a very bad position because of the guilty verdict in the KP case. So for me this raises the question as to whether (genuinely) volunteer leading can be supported / enabled in a club type structure, but legally independent of a continuing SCGB. I think this possible - and desirable to many ... as is proven by the model in Val D'Isere which often has 3 volunteer led groups a day (and in a smaller way the Les Arcs SCGB "spin off" group, and many informal groups around the Alps - also Downhill only club (Wengen) and similar. I know many on snowheads see little value in this type of volunteer leader, however I also know it is the one benefit asked for again and again, and so often given as the reason for 'why I joined the club' So a new structure - a type of club - with no/low membership fees, volunteer leaders and in resort club feel could work couldn't it? This wouldn't compete with SCGB (which is largely a holiday company now anyway), I'd like to think it worked in parallel or as an affiliate in much the same way as say the Ski Club of Manchester does - although sadly we all know how Council will behave. The issue is whether volunteer leading, social club ski groups can be re-born, and what sort of structure can best support this.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Volunteer group leaders can of course work and they happen organically in almost every casual skiing group in the world. Every sH bash has plenty of these - not from anyone putting on a badge that says "leader" but just from roommates or friends or casual bump into each other on the mountain etc.
The difficulty and possibly the legal barrier lies in how formal the infrastructure is put around such leadership. I really don't think the reps courses that qualify individuals to lead help in this respect. The grown up thing to do for France,of course, would be to sit down with some French voluntary clubs and figure out how they would do it and then speak to some local gendarmeries to confirm there would be no problem operating in the same manner.
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@Dave of the Marmottes, the French allow their fellow citizens to do this as long as they are either in the military, educationalists or civil servant.
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You know it makes sense.
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Better sign up to the Legion then rather than doing reps' courses 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Gerry wrote: |
| j b wrote: |
...Surprisingly, a lot of the discussion has been about commercial activities which aren't the essence of a "club". If you want insurance go to an insurer, if you want package holidays go to a tour operator - they will have a lot more expertise and already have the necessary legal protections. What a club should provide is the friendship and common cause.
[...]
And if it did become a membership organisation, perhaps it could negotiate modest discounts for members with insurance or travel companies which fitted its ethos - but without having the cost of setting up those commercial operations. |
You start by suggesting that one of the important aspects of joining forces with other people to form a club i.e collective bargaining power, isn’t all that important, then you go on to suggest that it might be a good idea. You seem slightly as odds with yourself. |
I think @j b has it right. A good club negotiates discounts / deals for its members - and the larger the membership the greater the number or value of discounts that should potentially be available. But it doesn't have to take any financial interest in those deals, such as either creating/selling package holidays or taking commission on insurance (which largely negates the value of the available member discount) or in any other way.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| On the rocks wrote: |
I’m one of the lapsed members. For me the only reasons to join a club like the SCGB is to facilitate skiing with people of similar ability and aspirations. That is why I am also a member of clubs for rock climbing, sea kayaking and road cycling. Insurance and discounts are irrelevant to me as I source these elsewhere, eg the BMC.
In the past the leader system worked well and I was a regular at Argentiere leader days and got to know a few other regulars. I’ve done a fair few FT holidays too, most good but some poor (same can be said for the FT Reps). However a major gap was SCGB refusal to facilitate peer to peer messaging and hence facilitate networking, something that Snowheads had from day 1. I believe this was to ensure that members only ski together with a leader/rep to keep the gigs flowing for them. I accept that many members have an aversion to FB etc, but many members would have appreciated it sooner. In fact I’ve used Snowheads to contact and meet up with skiers I originally met via SCGB!!
Despite being a regular supporter of SCGB on these forums as I have had lots of great skiing with it, I’m under no illusion that the SCGB is run purely for the benefit of its reps/leaders and not it’s ordinary members. Without the mutuality ethos I enjoy with my climbing and kayaking clubs there is no reason not to book holidays with Snoworks rather than SCGB. In fact Snoworks now offers a cheaper more reliable product and with a better members FB group. They also seem to do better with a much smaller and cost effective admin team. |
I agree with nearly all of this. For me though the problem with Snoworks is that most of their courses are not sold as part of a package including accommodation. While I would expect to enjoy the skiing, I would not, as a lone traveller, enjoy having to find the accommodation etc. and perhaps spending evenings on my own. Freshtracks works better for me. BUT SCGB seems to be having great difficulty in offering some of their most popular holidays....I wonder why.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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In all of the Snoworks holidays I’ve been on accommodation has been an optional part of the package which I’ve always used and enjoyed a good social aspect of the trips. I think it will take a little longer to arrange things this year post Covid
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Perhaps people are thinking of the village pub which closes down, only to be reopened by villagers
who join together triumphantly to lease and operate it as a co-operative.
I can't see that working here because (by analogy) the village already has hundreds of other
pubs (Snoworks, Snowheads, insurance companies, tour operators...) and those are mostly
run very well by professionals who deal in tight margins and tricky cash flow.
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On the specific idea for the snow equivalent of the climbing club hut....
The Karabiner MC's hut is in Snowdonia, precisely because their people live within easy drive of it.
They don't own Austrian Alpine huts because that makes no sense. Ditto my own caving club, who only first rented
then bought our cottage because we were already strongly established where our cottage is.
We don't own huts in Austria or Span where we go on expedition.
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In 1903 those SCGB founders would not have sat around knowing that they needed a club, then tried to define what it ought to do.
They would have approached things the opposite way, starting with the problem to which their club was the eventual solution.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@On the rocks, me too. However I think even when accommodation isn't included there may well be people looking to share rooms and/or a list of where people are staying so groups can form in hotels/whatever, or at least I hope so!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Gerry wrote: |
| Raceplate wrote: |
| Pruman wrote: |
| Not really perceptive. Over the years of business life I've had people say to me the likes of "I want this (more money, better territory etc) or I'm leaving" and my response was always the same "bye". Holding people to ransom just ain't cool. |
They're not holding you to ransom or threatening to leave, they're asking you for recognition of their efforts. If you can't see that you don't deserve to be a senior manager. You're supposed to develop the people below you, not show them the door. |
Was he ever a senior manager though? The impression I get is of a middle manager, journeyman who sacked lots of cleaners when they ask for something over the minimum. |
Before you quickly edited it Gerald, I was the very proud recipient of being called an 'arrogant tw@t' by a Director of The Ski Club of Great Britain  Classy, do I get some kind of certificate? I wonder how many memberships you've lost the club.
People who give ultimatums or use ransom in the workplace should have their bluff called. Normally, of course, compensation arrangements are reviewed once or twice a year. Of course you keep the good 'uns
Similarly, an unelected acting Chairman who ousts an elected Council Member in the way he did should also be invited to try the door. He won, now nobody on Council dare argue. That was the point. You might not agree with Pisteoff and want to put a horse's head in his bed, but he demonstrates more passion and energy than the entire Council and management put together. Sadly Gerald, because you are sad, you are an almighty negative force.
| philwig wrote: |
On the specific idea for the snow equivalent of the climbing club hut....
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In 1903 those SCGB founders would not have sat around knowing that they needed a club, then tried to define what it ought to do.
They would have approached things the opposite way, starting with the problem to which their club was the eventual solution. |
An example might be The Scottish Ski Club which has four huts - used to use the Cairngorm one and it was dead useful in the days when the place got mobbed at weekends. They started just a few years after SCGB and run by volunteers. Race training would be the main focus.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@Pruman, well actually, John B, you’ve got it all wrong because you have decided to believe the wrong person. None of us were prepared to work with Tom in the end because he is bully.
Obviously you still have an axe to grind after having a falling out with a rep in resort, bringing it to the old form and not being believed.
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| On the rocks wrote: |
| In all of the Snoworks holidays I’ve been on accommodation has been an optional part of the package which I’ve always used and enjoyed a good social aspect of the trips. I think it will take a little longer to arrange things this year post Covid |
Many thanks. I hadn't studied the Snoworks website carefully enough.
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| Gerry wrote: |
@Pruman, well actually, John B, you’ve got it all wrong because you have decided to believe the wrong person. None of us were prepared to work with Tom in the end because he is bully.
Obviously you still have an axe to grind after having a falling out with a rep in resort, bringing it to the old form and not being believed. |
Bully; "a person who habitually seeks to harm or intimidate those whom they perceive as vulnerable". I have never met Tom but I find it difficult to understand how he might have perceived the Council and its Chairman as in any way vulnerable. Together they were obviously in a more powerful position than Tom. I can believe that he might have provoked intense hostility by his actions as a Council member but to accuse him of being a bully seems to misunderstand the meaning of the word.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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It is shocking that a SCGB Director thinks its Ok to behave in this way, insulting and libelling members, former and potential members - while failing to engage in the underlying issues that affect SCGB. Shocking that Council and Chairman allow - even encourage - this to occur in the Clubs name. However @Gerry 's behaviour is not the problem at SCGB - just a symptom of a broken system. Perhaps those issues can be debated in the CEO thread for those that are interested in SCGB politics. Not me any more, but happy to support any members that have not lost the faith - its a tough challenge.
This thread was intended for those that are interested in exploring whether "we" can once again return to the core principles that made a once great club, and whether this can be reborn in a way that suits the 2020's and beyond.
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@pisteoff, yebbut @gerry can't resist any temptation to butt in to defend his truly beloved's honour even when his very actions besmirch that honour moreso. It's like a tragic superpower.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Gerry wrote: |
@Pruman, well actually, John B, you’ve got it all wrong because you have decided to believe the wrong person. None of us were prepared to work with Tom in the end because he is bully.
Obviously you still have an axe to grind after having a falling out with a rep in resort, bringing it to the old form and not being believed. |
Well poor old John B, whoever he is. You are sounding distinctly stalkerish.
| Jehu wrote: |
| Bully; "a person who habitually seeks to harm or intimidate those whom they perceive as vulnerable". I have never met Tom but I find it difficult to understand how he might have perceived the Council and its Chairman as in any way vulnerable. Together they were obviously in a more powerful position than Tom. I can believe that he might have provoked intense hostility by his actions as a Council member but to accuse him of being a bully seems to misunderstand the meaning of the word. |
Yes, quite, how one person can 'bully' eleven other Council Members, especially one who spends his life on building sites and insinuating he isn't averse to a spot of bare knuckle fighting, is beyond me. None of them should be that vulnerable otherwise why would they stand for election?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Gerry wrote: |
| ...And why bring race and class into it? |
Sorry, I'd missed that question.
Because you, as a director of SCGB Ltd, have fulsomely expressed your beliefs on what you call "race and class" on this skiing site.
I wondered how deep your bigotry runs in SCGB Ltd, and taking a look at the company's strategy as described in this current
video seemed like an excellent way to check.
Stock footage aside, SCGB Ltd's strategy as shown in the video seems to me to be lacking significantly in inclusivity and diversity.
Skiing in general has issues with those things, but that doesn't get SCGB Ltd off the hook, and in any case if it's losing customers then
ignoring / repelling significant sections of the public would be ineffective. SCGB Ltd seems to be aiming at a very specific group
and doesn't appear to have any strategy at all to broaden that.
To be fair the strategy of sending SCGB Ltd directors out to snowsports sites to threaten people there
with violence isn't in the video either
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@philwig, no threats of violence from me, ever. My views on race are also very liberal, as in I think people should be treated equally, regardless of ethnicity. Same with class, everyone should be treated equally.
I think a caught you and a couple of others out when I said exactly the same things about race as Trevor Phillips did in his notable documentary on the subject.
Pisteoff is an old mate, so I would like him to look me in the eye and repeat what he’s said. I very much doubt he could look me in the eye though because he himself doesn’t believe what he’s saying. Sadly, he’s just getting his revenge in.
You clearly have serious issues with people being ‘posh’. Lots of posh snowHeads of course, as someone else told you, but you ignored that inconvenient comment.
Finally, I had absolutely nothing to do with the Ski Club’s promotional video that seems to have enraged you so much.
You should probably calm down.
Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much  on Tue 10-08-21 20:36; edited 2 times in total
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You know it makes sense.
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@Pruman, pisteoff thought he could pick people off one at a time. To do this he uses certain techniques that are designed to wear people down. Didn’t work, though, did it. And now he’s in a monumental strop over it.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Jehu wrote: |
| Gerry wrote: |
@Pruman, well actually, John B, you’ve got it all wrong because you have decided to believe the wrong person. None of us were prepared to work with Tom in the end because he is bully.
Obviously you still have an axe to grind after having a falling out with a rep in resort, bringing it to the old form and not being believed. |
Bully; "a person who habitually seeks to harm or intimidate those whom they perceive as vulnerable". I have never met Tom but I find it difficult to understand how he might have perceived the Council and its Chairman as in any way vulnerable. Together they were obviously in a more powerful position than Tom. I can believe that he might have provoked intense hostility by his actions as a Council member but to accuse him of being a bully seems to misunderstand the meaning of the word. |
Well, he has many other issues as well. For example, if he doesn’t get his own way he will refuse to move on. Everyone else will assume an issue has been decided (for now, with a review later) but by the morning everyone will get a two thousand word email, covering all the same ground and again insisting that everyone else is wrong.
He once phoned me at 21:30 and I just couldn’t get him off the phone until about 23:00. He has a gift for sucking the life force out of you.
In meetings he will constantly interrupt and talk over people. Even when people are telling him to stop talking he just carries on. I’ve never experienced anything like it.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Perhaps this thread needs reentitling "Gerry Aitken SCGB Director sets the world to rights while demanding people to say it to his face, and references his views on race theory expounded elsewhere" and a new, new Bluesky thread needs creating?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Dave of the Marmottes, well, my views on race theory are pretty much the same as Trevor Phillips’.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Tue 10-08-21 20:36; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@Gerry, Anyway, about a strategy to bring the club up to date and attract new members to ski or snowboard together with or without a leader / rep in the context of Brexit and French etc regulations?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| On the rocks wrote: |
| @Gerry, Anyway, about a strategy to bring the club up to date and attract new members to ski or snowboard together with or without a leader / rep in the context of Brexit and French etc regulations? |
Go to the Facebook group and chat about it there.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
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More demonstration of the white, working classes or a picture of your sister on her way to a rounders match? Haven’t got my classes to hand, so can’t tell.
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Pop culture dear boy
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@Dave of the Marmottes, whoosh!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Google "Trevor Philips" cf "Trevor Phillips".
I wouldn't normally pick up on a typo but this seemed too good since the fictional Trevor Philips may be a meth slinging, arsoning, chopper hijacking, bank looting, psychopath redneck but curiously not a racist.
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| Gerry wrote: |
| On the rocks wrote: |
| @Gerry, Anyway, about a strategy to bring the club up to date and attract new members to ski or snowboard together with or without a leader / rep in the context of Brexit and French etc regulations? |
Go to the Facebook group and chat about it there. |
I just looked at the current FB group. There’s far more engagement by current and past Scgb members discussing the issues here on Snowheads
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads on Tue 10-08-21 20:47; edited 1 time in total
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FAQ
