I have a pair of 155 Head Rebel I.SLs that I use on the dry slope and have had fun on the proper pistes on occasion but my main skis for the last 6 season have been a pair of 164 Rossignol Sin 7s (I am 5’2”/140lb).
As I spend most of my time on the piste now it might make sense to just take the DSL skis but I wondered how difficult, or not, they would be off piste. Would they be more difficult then the Vokl P9/P10s that I used off piste 30 years ago?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Compared to the P9/10's they would be a joy. Much wider, more float. But most importantly lower swing weight.
An off piste ski would make things much easier, however any snow is still skiable on any ski.
Many days out skiing with the intention of only skiing pistes I have been temted with that patch of unskied between the pistes and just turned and dropped in. A turn or 2 to regain balance and then smiles all the way to the next groomed section.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I am 5'10" and 140lbs - and found Off Piste (not steep, bottomless powder) on 157 Atomic SL11 doable. My guess, is if you could handle stiff straight skis Off Piste, then you will be fine.
I too learned on 2m Old School skis - but didn't get the chance to go off the beaten track that often.....mostly with the SCGB.
I've not done the side by side comparison with old skinny skis but...
I've taken my 162 FIS SLs off piste in powder and chop and you can ski them. They certainly have bigger shovels than old skinny skis which helps. On the other hand they have a LOT of camber and are stiff tip to tail. I think they bend into reverse camber less easily that old 2m skis would. Probably also a bit hookier and less easy to pivot the tails around. I'm not altogether sure they would be better than 2m p9s in proper powder.
But on your main question - if you get some powder, you'll still have fun on your SLs (even if you wish you'd brought the Sin 7s!)
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Thanks all. I’ll give them a try, suspect I will need some speed to get them to bend!
SL skis will work off piste - but will be much harder work than something more all mountain/designed for back country. The SL skis are designed to sink down through the lose stuff and find the ice to cut their edges into while the more off piste the ski the more it tries to float on top (just one of my slalom skis isn't far off the weight of my pair of off piste skis).
If you're just playing in the couple of inches off fresh overnight snow at the side of the piste that's as much fun in SL skis as any other. If your guide has taken you to an untouched bowl of waste deep powder...well you're going to be eating snow and trying to dig yourself and your SL skis out before too long
What you SHOULD do of course is buy a pair of all mountain skis. More fun than the Souls on piste/more fun than the SL skis off. See rule 3.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
SL skis will be very "grabby" due to the tight sidecut and stiff flex so need subtle inputs in soft snow. Yes the have much wider tips than 30 year skis but a 155 SL probably has about the same surface area as a 190/200 P9 so not sure you really get any more "float". The old skis would probably be easier to ski smoothly off piste.
After all it is free
After all it is free
they'll be just fine if you have the skillz
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Sonic the Skier wrote:
As I spend most of my time on the piste now
Why is that, may I ask?
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Take your 155s... enjoy the piste. If it snows, amble up to your nearest hire shop and rent something suited to freshies! I've used SLs in powder --- I think you fine them more tricky than the P9/P10s (done that too) of old...it is possible, but you need to be very precise and it's tiring. Easier to get an intentional face shot tho'
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ski wrote:
Take your 155s... enjoy the piste. If it snows, amble up to your nearest hire shop and rent something suited to freshies! I've used SLs in powder --- I think you fine them more tricky than the P9/P10s (done that too) of old...it is possible, but you need to be very precise and it's tiring. Easier to get an intentional face shot tho'
Way easier than old school skiinnies, if you don't belive me try. Most people have forgotten how bad old school skis were.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Contrary to everyone, I will say the opposite. No they won't work. It's as simple as that. SL skis are made for ice and short turns. End of discussion. Yes you can take them off piste, but it's anything but fun. This is my most favorite wide to prove I'm not wrong when discussion comes to this.
http://youtube.com/v/qkwKon4mxy8
I know this guy personally and I have been skiing with him plenty of times, including off piste, so you can believe me, he knows how to ski off piste with proper gear (I know story behind GS skis on Bec), but in this video you can see there's anything but fun, regardless what he says in video.
As @Mjit, wrote, if it's just about few centimeters of fresh snow over groomed course during night, then sure no problem with SL or even GS skis,but real off piste, it's just not fun.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@primoz, I wouldn't want to take GS skis off piste but SL skis are fine. There isn't nearly as much difference in surface area between the skis the OP has as there would be between 165cm SL skis and ~190cm fat skis.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
rjs wrote:
@primoz, I wouldn't want to take GS skis off piste but SL skis are fine. There isn't nearly as much difference in surface area between the skis the OP has as there would be between 165cm SL skis and ~190cm fat skis.
Obviously I'd never pick SLs if I thought it was a powder day but I was out on them and there happened to be a nice looking untracked powder field off the piste I certainly wouldn't be ignoring it to stick to the piste!
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@primoz, uh, you ski with what you have ...
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I have skied powder on my own Head i.Speeds and a rented pair of Rossi Hero LT's and the Rossi's were much better. The Heads were quite 'grabby' and you had to really make an effort to not put lot's of input in to the turns, whereas the Rossi's were a lot smoother. Just my 2p.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@rjs, width of ski is not only thing that matters. I would say construction of ski plays bigger role then few millimeters wider ski. Main thing is still SL ski is super stiff ski with zero rocker, and normally also mounted different way then super soft Sin7 would/should be. But even if it's just about millimeters, Sin7 is 98mm while SL is 65mm, so there's pretty big difference even in this.
I agree we are all different, but personally I never had much fun on SL or GS skis in powder. Yes 10 or 20cm fresh pow on top of groomed course is ok, but even that is way more fun with ski meant for that. That's why, unless I go skiing just for day, there's always another pair of skis with me (it's either Soul7 with touring binding or Super7 if I know there won't be touring).
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
The question of course, is how likely @Sonic, is going to find themselves in deep powder. It doesn't happen all that often in Europe ... without getting yourself to it ... not really so as one would find the overwhelming urge to carry 2 pairs of skis, not when you can usually rent if there is a big dump.
Take your 155s... enjoy the piste. If it snows, amble up to your nearest hire shop and rent something suited to freshies!
Probably the best option overall - and in my experience just hiring for a day or two mid-week doesn't cost very much. I think many shops take the view that it's the weekly hire where they make their money but have to employ someone to be in the shop doing nothing the rest of the week, just in case of any issues walking in. As they are there if they can being in a day or two's hire it's just profit (especially for off piste skis as you can probably just throw them back in the hire rack for next week without them needing a service).
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
I recently dropped in to a high start of forest section on my SLs (Nordica Dobermanns) and the snow softened after about 100m vert down and became quite heavy. The ski tails were sinking in and locking my turns and it was bloody horrible. I ended up pretty much straightlining through the woods and gullies to rejoin the piste. I did not enjoy that one bit. Back to my 104mm Enforcer Frees and the runs were great.
@rjs, width of ski is not only thing that matters. I would say construction of ski plays bigger role then few millimeters wider ski. Main thing is still SL ski is super stiff ski with zero rocker, and normally also mounted different way then super soft Sin7 would/should be. But even if it's just about millimeters, Sin7 is 98mm while SL is 65mm, so there's pretty big difference even in this.
I agree we are all different, but personally I never had much fun on SL or GS skis in powder. Yes 10 or 20cm fresh pow on top of groomed course is ok, but even that is way more fun with ski meant for that. That's why, unless I go skiing just for day, there's always another pair of skis with me (it's either Soul7 with touring binding or Super7 if I know there won't be touring).
Honestly in Europe days with more than 20cm of fresh are pretty unusual...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Scarpa wrote:
I recently dropped in to a high start of forest section on my SLs (Nordica Dobermanns) and the snow softened after about 100m vert down and became quite heavy. The ski tails were sinking in and locking my turns and it was bloody horrible. I ended up pretty much straightlining through the woods and gullies to rejoin the piste. I did not enjoy that one bit. Back to my 104mm Enforcer Frees and the runs were great.
yeah - when it get's heavy they are going to become very hooky and want to dive
After all it is free
After all it is free
jedster wrote:
Honestly in Europe days with more than 20cm of fresh are pretty unusual...
But days in Europe when a good guide can take you to still untracked deep powder stashes, even weeks after the last snowfall seem to be unlimited.
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jedster wrote:
Scarpa wrote:
I recently dropped in to a high start of forest section on my SLs (Nordica Dobermanns) and the snow softened after about 100m vert down and became quite heavy. The ski tails were sinking in and locking my turns and it was bloody horrible. I ended up pretty much straightlining through the woods and gullies to rejoin the piste. I did not enjoy that one bit. Back to my 104mm Enforcer Frees and the runs were great.
yeah - when it get's heavy they are going to become very hooky and want to dive
This is why, no matter how much of a ski god you are, you just say no to proper SL skis off piste. Why risk ruining a good thing? Hell I've even had a bad time in breakable crust on WD Rangers with their flat tail and gone and swapped for a snowboard to cover the same terrain more joyfully.
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
I once rode out of a heli on P9 SL gear, before I learned that there were better tools. Much later I also once rode an SL snowboard from a machine for a bet.
Using the wrong skis is significantly easier, so if willy-waving is the goal, then you know what you have to do. Seriously there's no sane argument for
deliberately picking the wrong tool. No one deliberately makes their day less fun.
Try driving your 4wd around Silverstone a bit and maybe you will figure out why most people use cars more suited to the track.
It's not that you can't drive your range rover there (Porshe has lots of 4wd people on their track), it's just that it's not as much
fun as driving a track car.
Personally I tend to favour my SL snowboard at resorts but then I'm not there looking for powder.
If it turns up I'll take it, riding the skier-pisted base. You won't see me in the flats, mind. In North America
I'll probably have both SL and powder boards in my car and will likely swap once it starts to get tracked out.
So back to the OP... if you're cash limited, then ride what you have. When you think everyone else is having
more fun than you, or you're finding it hard work, rent something more appropriate. As someone said the
alternative is to find something which is more of a compromise, which sounds like good advice too.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
It has only just arisen to me that the OP's Sin 7s are more or less similar dimensions to my daily drivers of the last 10 years, being variously Mantras, Bonafides and BD Route 95s.
I am not entirely sure I'd even have reached for my FIS SLs at any point, even had I not worn them out.
So I suspect that maybe, perhaps, could be that a good one on one lesson to make sure the Sins are being properly used on hard surfaces might be more productive
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
I think sometimes there is an emphasis on the pristine fresh skied overnight bluebird day powder. For me at least there is a lot more to lift served off piste than that. Whilst it's always nice to ski some virgin snow, I can get a decent buzz out of tracked out/chopped up snow too. And in the right conditions a good dump can give you good skiing for 3 days at least. Or maybe that's how I dream it. Anyways, an all mountain ski helps with that plus crud and slush too. It's kind of the whole point. So you need something with that job in mind.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Having done BASI 1/2 and some 3 on a pair of Head Supershapes with 73mm underfoot 'proper' off-piste is very difficult. It's certainly not fun anyway. If as previously suggested it's just next to the piste or a thin layer of fresh on an otherwise well-maintained piste then yes, crack on.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
under a new name wrote:
@primoz, uh, you ski with what you have ...
As we all used to do .... "back in the day;" And as, I believe, the majority still do now. The only time we ever heard of wide skis in the early 90s was for heliskiing - which was something we could only dream of then. So we had to ski on what we had - and loved it! We didn't think to ski deep powder and wish we had different skis.
We've now had fatties (106mm underfoot, with DH bindings) for only 3 years but, although they are great fun, we still enjoy getting away from it all on our 74mm touring skis as (as under a new name says) we ski with what we have - and it's far better than not touring
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Thanks for the many replies. Today’s SL skis seem to be much heavier and stiffer than in the 90’s, or perhaps it is just me getting weaker. I will take the SLs if I can take two pairs but will stick to the Sin 7s otherwise. Having had some coaching I find that the Sin 7s will carve quite nicely, just need a bit of speed. I have just been unlucky the last couple of years as I have had lots of rain (even in Val d’Isere in February). Hopefully we will get plenty of fresh snow in 2022.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Bergmeister wrote:
... The only time we ever heard of wide skis in the early 90s was for heliskiing - which was something we could only dream of then. So we had to ski on what we had - and loved it! We didn't think to ski deep powder and wish we had different skis. ...
Beginners (me included) would ski bottomless powder on the P9 slalom, but it was hard work and most non-first-timers would switch to the Millers very quickly.
All those same people moved first to Fat Boys and then everything everyone knows. They did it because you can ski more powder and it's more fun.
No one's impressed by those using the wrong gear; at best they slow everyone down.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
philwig wrote:
Bergmeister wrote:
... The only time we ever heard of wide skis in the early 90s was for heliskiing - which was something we could only dream of then. So we had to ski on what we had - and loved it! We didn't think to ski deep powder and wish we had different skis. ...
Beginners (me included) would ski bottomless powder on the P9 slalom, but it was hard work and most non-first-timers would switch to the Millers very quickly.
All those same people moved first to Fat Boys and then everything everyone knows. They did it because you can ski more powder and it's more fun.
No one's impressed by those using the wrong gear; at best they slow everyone down.
don't think anyone was suggesting taking SLs heliskiing!
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Quote:
The skis were probably "Miller Softs".
I'm pretty sure such things didn't make it into any of the European areas I was skiing around then (I'd have noticed) - possibly Chamonix - but they probably didn't make for great mountaineering skis.
I think the earliest "powder" skis I saw were in Vermont (I know, powder skis in VT?) in 1999 and were some Volant model. I can recall thinking, "who needs "powder" skis to ski powder?". Reasonably sure the earliest I think I saw in Europe would have been Salomon "Pocket Rockets" maybe even that same season, and on asking my shop buddy what they were like, he said, "well, they're all right in powder, but shoite at everything else", and I had the same reaction, "why would you, etc."
Anyway my first heliski afternoon, I used Rossignol 7Xs (detuned GS ski), just cos, I could and it was only for an afternoon. No problems but dear me, so much more harder work than my buddies. Switched to whatever the lodge had for the rest of the week!!
Having done BASI 1/2 and some 3 on a pair of Head Supershapes with 73mm underfoot 'proper' off-piste is very difficult. It's certainly not fun anyway
It was fun watching Alpine L2s in soft snow at Hintertuchs, my tele skis were much better suited!
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
My stoeckli stormrider XLs (2005 I think) were sold as freeride skis. Their girthy XL status meant that they were (still are as it happens) a massive 75mm in the waist. I enjoyed rather a lot of "proper" off piste on them over the years. Certainly a LOT of fun.
Before those I had some Atomic Betaride 9.22. The "ride" bit flagging them as a freeride ski. 72mm waist. I remember thinking they were amazing off piste. Compared to the 2m slalom skis I'd been on before.
But no they are not as much fun in deep snow as my Whitedot Redeemers
... I'm pretty sure such things didn't make it into any of the European areas I was skiing around then (I'd have noticed) - ...
Aye, me neither. I never saw them in Europe, didn't know they existed until I read US ski magazines in EU airports.
Um, seriously people do rock up to both [daily] heli and cats with unsuitable gear.
It's much rarer with weekly stuff but you do still see it. That said corn snow doesn't need float (or balance for us snowboarders).
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
If I could actually use all my skis - like living in resort I'd probably ski skinnier a lot more - I've some OG Movement Thunders that would still give many "charger" pistey all mtn skis a run for their money but they are horrible in stiff bumps etc whereas e.g my much flexier and wider WD Directors are positively delightful by comparison.
I remain mystified why BASI courses insist on the one ski to rule them all when clearly candidates could get higher performance on an appropriate offpiste biased ski. I guess it's still tied to some thinking that an instructor has to be ready to ski anywhere on the skis that they are on depnding on the needs of the students.
After all it is free
After all it is free
@Dave of the Marmottes, what do you mean by "skinnier"? Living in resort my usual skis are 95 and 100 (maybe 98? who cares?) Although I do hanker after a shorter pair of 62s...
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Skinnier than 108ish+. OK well actually skinnier than say 90 as that would be my definition of not off piste focused in a ski just as 110ish is my definition of real all mountain.
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It depends on how heavy the off piste is, if it is 30 cm of light snow on a firm base, any ski will be fine but if it is zombie snow that grabs at your legs as your skis sink down, a wider ski that reduces the sinking will be more enjoyable.
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