 Poster: A snowHead
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Quote from BBC website
"Three people have been arrested in Italy over Sunday's cable car accident that left 14 dead.
Investigators say the emergency brakes had been disabled and the three members of the operating company were aware.
According to a local transport official, the brakes' failure meant the car was travelling at over 100km per hour (62 mph) when the cable broke.
The car plunged 20m (65ft) into the side of the Mottarone mountain near Lake Maggiore in northern Italy.
The three suspects have been identified as the owner, director and chief of operations of the company that managed the cable car.
"The three detainees had known about the failure of the emergency brake system for weeks," news agency Efe quoted prosecutor Olimpia Bossi as saying.
One official told Italian TV channel Rai 3 that the suspects had admitted disactivating the emergency brake following "malfunctions in the cable car", which repair workers had been unable to fix, according to Ansa new agency."
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| under a new name wrote: |
| @munich_irish, that's pretty damning, assuming all true. I believe some of the senior management from Champoluc are still in jail for the tragedy of the Crest lift in 1983. |
No wonder they are denying ownership.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Timc wrote: |
Quote from BBC website
"Three people have been arrested in Italy over Sunday's cable car accident that left 14 dead.
Investigators say the emergency brakes had been disabled and the three members of the operating company were aware.
According to a local transport official, the brakes' failure meant the car was travelling at over 100km per hour (62 mph) when the cable broke.
The car plunged 20m (65ft) into the side of the Mottarone mountain near Lake Maggiore in northern Italy.
The three suspects have been identified as the owner, director and chief of operations of the company that managed the cable car.
"The three detainees had known about the failure of the emergency brake system for weeks," news agency Efe quoted prosecutor Olimpia Bossi as saying.
One official told Italian TV channel Rai 3 that the suspects had admitted disactivating the emergency brake following "malfunctions in the cable car", which repair workers had been unable to fix, according to Ansa new agency." |
Christ.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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This is beyond horrendous.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| This is beyond horrendous. |
Oh no.
That's worse that the P&O ferry doors.
Jail.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Google translate from La Stampa
| Quote: |
Found the second "fork" that blocked the emergency brake
The investigation into the tragedy of the Stresa cable car is enriched with a new detail. On the scene of the accident, in the woods of Mottarone, the second "fork" was found this morning, that particular tool that prevents the system's emergency brakes from working.
The turning point in the investigative activity was marked by the finding that a "fork", a spreader that holds open the jaws that activate the braking system, had remained activated. From mid-afternoon yesterday the convocation of ten employees of the Ferrovie del Mottarone and from their testimonies a first truth emerged: the brakes did not come into operation because it was decided to keep the shoe open because it caused interference with the driving system and sent in block the whole system.
To fix the anomaly it would have taken a prolonged intervention that would have meant closing the plant and no collection for another period after the lockdown. A decision made in the certainty that the hauling rope would never break, but it did. For what reason,is the other enigma that the investigators must solve.
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I read somewhere that the Giro was due to pass through this area this week. If it's true do we think that they deliberately kept it open to generate money from a lot of visitors.
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| jedster wrote: |
| Hurtle wrote: |
| This is beyond horrendous. |
Oh no.
That's worse that the P&O ferry doors.
Jail. |
If (as seems to be the case) that the operating company made the deliberate decision to disable a critical safety feature then all those responsible should be facing many years in jail. I know nothing about Italian Law, but I would also imagine that the families of the victims have a strong case for civil claims against the operating company.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I am not suggesting in anyway that what appears to have happened is excusable, however I suspect the people involved here will not have been the only ones cutting corners and taking risks. The past year has put huge pressure on many businesses especially those tourist related. Many such businesses have had little to no income over the past 12 months but still have had outgoings. When nice weather appears it is natural to want to make sure that everything is open and running for visitors. Closing down the cable car impacts not only on the operator of the cable car but also all those businesses which rely on the stream of visitors on the top. In a tourist town like Stresa there will be big pressure to make sure it is running and the scheduled Giro visit probably added to that pressure. I would suspect that the "trick" disabling the emergency brake is something that has been done regularly previously with no effect on the operation of the cable car, why not do it again, after all the chances of a cable breaking are extremely small. Someone mentioned Jaws above, this is likely to be a very similar situation. I suspect there will be other places where people have done things along the same lines and who will be scrambling to sort out their own issues.
If this is true it does not absolve those involved from the responsibility of disabling a critical safety device which has directly lead to 14 deaths though maybe it is worth asking ourselves what we might have done in the same situation. Easy to say we would have never done it but I doubt the individuals here were bad or evil deliberately setting out to run an unsafe cable car, likely to be more concerned about providing for their families in difficult circumstances.
It is very sad for all involved, perhaps I should feel more for the folks who died but what struck me as very sad was the 5 year old lad who is in hospital, what do they tell him when he wakes up and asks for his parents?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Unbelievable, or is it? Genoa bridge collapse not that long ago is it and bosses arrested there also. No excuse, terrible lack of respect for safety of the public.
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Still no word on the initiating cause of the accident. How can a rope, that was tested just a few months before, simply tear like that?
Anyway, personal stories aside, the perpetrators are guilty of criminal negligence at best. They can say goodbye to freedom for a very long time. Rightly so IMO
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You know it makes sense.
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Those are the moments I am frustrated by the insignificance of any human life.
Some folks decided to save money and postpone a costly repair which would have force them to shut down thus creating further financial damage.
This could have happened on a ski slope during the winter season.
A harsh punishment is needed here to deter anyone else in the future from making the same choices. Hopefully.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| jedster wrote: |
| Hurtle wrote: |
| This is beyond horrendous. |
Oh no.
That's worse that the P&O ferry doors.
Jail. |
I refer to my previous comment, "I believe some of the senior management from Champoluc are still in jail for the tragedy of the Crest lift in 1983."
Italian law, when it functions correctly, is unforgiving in areas where UK law seems blind.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
How can a rope, that was tested just a few months before, simply tear like that?
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The haul rope on a cable car can move up to 10m/s, almost twice as fast as a chairlift or gondola. If it derails and crosses another cable it can quickly cut through itself.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Peter S wrote: |
| Quote: |
How can a rope, that was tested just a few months before, simply tear like that?
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The haul rope on a cable car can move up to 10m/s, almost twice as fast as a chairlift or gondola. If it derails and crosses another cable it can quickly cut through itself. |
I don't understand that. If it was crossing another stationary rope wouldn't it be that other rope tat gets cut not the one moving at 10 m/s?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| drporat wrote: |
| ... A harsh punishment is needed here to deter anyone else in the future from making the same choices. Hopefully. |
Whilst I'm fully behind the application of legal penalties to people who do things like this, I don't think it will deter others, particularly.
First, if it did, then by now this sort of thing would no longer be happening.
Second, idiots don't understand how dangerous their actions are. A bit like criminals, they don't intend to get caught, if you see what I mean.
I think the best you can do is get some sort of justice for the families, and take the guilty out of circulation so they can't do it again, and likely won't get work in similar dangerous places.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Here's a stock photo of the system in better times:
There are two cables - a thicker weight-bearing cable on top which the car sits on and which passes through guide rollers in the top attachment, and a much thinner cable which the car clamps on to which provides the propulsion.
The top cable is designed for strength when subjected to a weight hanging from it. The bottom cable is designed for longitudinal strength, and torsional strength to resist twisting forces from the car rocking sideways in the wind. If the top cable derails from a pylon for any reason, there would be two results - the upper cable would then be lower than the drive cable, and it is possible that the drive cable could effectively be sawn through by the thicker cable if the derailing was not identified quickly and the lift stopped, and secondly much more of the weight of the car would then be transferred to the drive cable, which might not be able to take that strain, or only if it remained undamaged.
The photos from the scene show the pylon above the final resting place of the car:
In this photo, the weight-bearing cable remains in place on both sides of the pylon, but the drive cable is hanging in an extended loop on the right side. A third cable above the weight-bearing cable is used for communications in most installations - this is possibly visible above, and out of shot on the top photo.
The weight-bearing cable may have derailed above this pylon, but we can't assume that - the investigation though will have that information already.
As well as the owners and managers being in the dock, it may be that the operator on the day was too slow to deal with an issue and stop the car. As the last upgrade was in 2002, I would expect the monitoring and control systems to be at least partially computerised, and to have a full audit log of events going back at least a couple of months, and backups or archive procedures will have the details going back further. There may be a lot of switches, knobs and dials in the control room, but somewhere the raw data would have been recorded.
It's a pretty grim incident, and it doesn't inspire confidence. Added to the history of Italian engineering failures recently where corners were cut or known issues were left unfixed in bridges, buildings and railways it doesn't paint a great picture.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@ousekjarr, Thanks for the explanation. Makes sense.
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| Quote: |
Second, idiots don't understand how dangerous their actions are. A bit like criminals, they don't intend to get caught, if you see what I mean.
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Surely, removing or disabling saftey measures makes them criminals anyway. I don't think a mental health argument (ie I am of reduced intelligence) would stand up in court.
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The "hanging transit cable" is for the other car as I understand it, a continuous loop through both cars transmitted through top and base stations to move the cars in synchronisation and balance.
Presumably with the fail location of this one near top, then the other one was just on approach to base and crashed into there, hopefully without passenger payload.
Isn't it always (well most often) a characteristic of these events in that a competent system with built in redundancy/contingency/emergency containment, has one of those elements not maintained, failed, disabled to cope with operating circumstances? Either insufficient scheduling on maintenance or inability to adhere to entirely competent set of protocols and procedures.
Looks like someone somewhere has consciously made the decision to run without emergency brake facilities completely in place and verified as such. That's going to be a very uncomfortable post right now.
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There's usually a chain of events or circumstances which add up to a failure. I have no inside knowledge, and I'm not an expert on lift systems, but here's one possible chain of events:
1. Covid costs the company a lot of money, and they need income quickly
2. The lift is allowed to open, but with limited capacity due to Covid restrictions - seems that this may have been 15 people, so it was at full capacity when the accident happened
3. To maximise income, the lift company have to move people quicker than normal due to the reduced capacity, and they have queues
4. The safety systems keep tripping out because the increased speed on the wire is higher than the safety limit pre-programmed into the system
5. They can't change the safety limit in the system, so instead they prevent the emergency brakes from working, allowing the car to run at higher speeds
6. The higher speeds put more stress on the cables
7. The drive cable snaps
8. The emergency brake does not work because it is disabled
9. Fourteen people die
I'm not suggesting that this is what happened - it is one possible and credible narrative, and shows how this sort of event can happen. A tweak here, a workaround there, a temporary stretch of limits, and everything combines to generate a disaster. The report from the investigation will detail what actually happened, and then it will all become clear. The Italian authorities are not so good at enforcing compliance, but they are extremely good at pointing fingers afterwards, as they've unfortunately had a lot of practice.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Its kinda like breaking the chains of COVID transmission using distancing, masks, reduction in capacity Etc.
There are many systems that will prevent disaster. A lot of people / corporations may violate one or two and get away with it, but sometimes there is confluence that allows the disaster to happen.
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| johnE wrote: |
| ... I don't think a mental health argument (ie I am of reduced intelligence) would stand up in court. |
Correct.
But that's not the argument I was making, which was specifically about the deterrent effect of penalties.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| ski3 wrote: |
| Presumably with the fail location of this one near top, then the other one was just on approach to base and crashed into there, hopefully without passenger payload. |
I wondered this too, about the other car in the balance. As I understand it, the brake was not disabled on the other car, so when the cable snapped, the brake engaged as designed, and the car stopped in place. The passengers were rescued using a ladder, as it was near the lift building.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| philwig wrote: |
| drporat wrote: |
| ... A harsh punishment is needed here to deter anyone else in the future from making the same choices. Hopefully. |
Whilst I'm fully behind the application of legal penalties to people who do things like this, I don't think it will deter others, particularly.
First, if it did, then by now this sort of thing would no longer be happening.
Second, idiots don't understand how dangerous their actions are. A bit like criminals, they don't intend to get caught, if you see what I mean.
I think the best you can do is get some sort of justice for the families, and take the guilty out of circulation so they can't do it again, and likely won't get work in similar dangerous places. |
I disagree. These incidents are very rare in significant part because people understand the severe legal consequences.
When I worked in the chemical industry people were very aware who was in the "go to jail role" (we actually called it that - informally) and I can tell you it focused minds.
Compare it to road safety where drivers take awful risks every day and we know how hard it is to end up in jail
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There is a subtle irony here.
How many people have ignored lockdown rules, caught and passed Covid onto a third party who has died.
Deliberate action, same result, no punishment.
Difficult to prove in each case but the same principle applies.
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You know it makes sense.
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@codyaitch, maybe in the UK, but in other countries people have been charged after passing on corona, if they were known to be positive at the time.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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https://gift.enthuse.com/cf/eitan
Not sure if it is allowed but the above page is fundraiser for a 5 year boy a sole surviving member of his family whose parents, grandparents and younger brother have died in this tragedy. ( l don’t have any personal connection with the family)
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Poster: A snowHead
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| ousekjarr wrote: |
There's usually a chain of events or circumstances which add up to a failure. I have no inside knowledge, and I'm not an expert on lift systems, but here's one possible chain of events:
1. Covid costs the company a lot of money, and they need income quickly
2. The lift is allowed to open, but with limited capacity due to Covid restrictions - seems that this may have been 15 people, so it was at full capacity when the accident happened
3. To maximise income, the lift company have to move people quicker than normal due to the reduced capacity, and they have queues
4. The safety systems keep tripping out because the increased speed on the wire is higher than the safety limit pre-programmed into the system
5. They can't change the safety limit in the system, so instead they prevent the emergency brakes from working, allowing the car to run at higher speeds
6. The higher speeds put more stress on the cables
7. The drive cable snaps
8. The emergency brake does not work because it is disabled
9. Fourteen people die
I'm not suggesting that this is what happened - it is one possible and credible narrative, and shows how this sort of event can happen. A tweak here, a workaround there, a temporary stretch of limits, and everything combines to generate a disaster. |
That. Or a simple combination of sloppiness, greed and incompetence. The cable car was public owned. Picture below shows an old photo from their own website! As you can see they were driving around with blocked brakes whenever they felt like it:
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Tristero, as I said above I'm not an expert on cable cars or lifts of any description, so this is a genuine question - what is it in the photo which makes it obvious the brakes are wedged open? The brakes will be open under normal circumstances, so is there something in this which shows evidence of interference?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Tristero wrote: |
| ...... As you can see they were driving around with blocked brakes whenever they felt like it: |
Can you highlight or describe what the picture is supposed to show?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| ousekjarr wrote: |
| @Tristero, as I said above I'm not an expert on cable cars or lifts of any description, so this is a genuine question - what is it in the photo which makes it obvious the brakes are wedged open? The brakes will be open under normal circumstances, so is there something in this which shows evidence of interference? |
| philwig wrote: |
| Tristero wrote: |
| ...... As you can see they were driving around with blocked brakes whenever they felt like it: |
Can you highlight or describe what the picture is supposed to show? |
Just compare the two pictures above, mine and the one @ousekjarr posted. Above the "LEITNER" sign is where you insert the forks to block the brakes. It's rather easy to spot, if you know what to look for. Especially the threaded rods, which hold the forks in place, are perfectly distinguishable on the picture I posted. These forks exist so that in case of an exceptional problem with the brakes you can move the car to the (other) station for repairs. Of course it is totally and completely ILLEGAL to drive around with any passengers, when brakes are blocked!
The forks work like this (here shown without the rod): 
Here you can see them on the crashed car (well, one at least; the other one burst away in the crash, but has of course been found in the meantime). If you look closely, you can clearly see the rod and the wingnut of the fixing system:
If not in use, for convenience these Fitzwilliams were often driving around with the forks lying aroud readily available on the maintenance deck. Which - of course! - is forbidden in and of itself as these things could easily kill someone, if falling down. You can see this practised in the picture ousekjarr posted above (the red parts).
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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In the picture posted earlier by @ousekjarr, they don't appear to be fitted but what looks suspiciously like them is sitting in the maintenance cage.
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@Tristero, @adithorp, thank you - good spot, and an excellent explanation. They are of course painted red for a reason...
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@Tristero, Interesting photos. In the Pic de Bure cable car tragedy which killed 20 people the emergency brake had been disabled 13 years before and the cable car made 19,000 cycles until the drive cable broke. I will have to see if I have any other photos of the Mottarone cable car from when I took it last. The photo you posted doesn't really show how steep the climb is, they must have used a fish eye lens but you are climbing from Stresa at 300 meters to Mottarone at 1400 m over a fairly short distance and the cable car is on quite a steep haul, especially near the top.
Here is a shot of the cable car at the mid (Alpino) station, you can see the brake forks on the maintenance platform
@Timc, there is hardly anyone around at the moment. A lot of the hotels are still closed due to Covid, I doubt they needed to run the cable car at a higher rate than usual, even in high summer it is not really heaving. I expect, like at the Pic du Bure, the brake was interfering with operations in some way.
If you value H&S avoid Italy, it is not the only installation with relaxed safety practices in the area.
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| davidof wrote: |
@Tristero,
Here is a shot of the cable car at the mid (Alpino) station, you can see the brake forks on the maintenance platform. |
Maybe if you know what you are looking for. Sadly, I haven't the foggiest... 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Bergmeister, Its all explained in the above posts. The red brackets you can see sitting on the platform that allows an operator access to where the car hangs onto the wire.
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So I think you're saying that the red things are used to mechanically prevent the safety brake from operating.
Hence they ought to be not in the mechanism under normal operation.
If they're lying on the platform, that's ok, but it's not ok to have them physically fitted into the gantry mechanism if it's carrying people.
The crash pictures show the red bits in situ => the emergency brake was mechanically disabled.
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FAQ
