MapSki - App for finding your mates and navigating the slopes

A snowHead

From the two apps i mentioned, zero of my group has an interest in installing either of them. They don't care about routes, gps, ticking off slopes, speed, etc.
Usually meet at the same place, etc. Which is usually decided on the first day...
even if there may be a better place! If lost, then look at a map.

I like iski because it has a wealth of information
I like 4riders because my other half will only do short reds as maximum, so try to mix it up for her.
For comms we use WhatsApp as a group.

So that should give you an idea in what you are up against.
Would i pay to buy the app as a one off? Maybe if it was a few quid
Would i install if it was free & there was tons of adverts? No
Would i install if it was subscription based? Probably not monthly/annually, but i may pay 99p to cover a trip!

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

This discussion reminded me of this:
https://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=149339&highlight=ski+nav
I still have that app installed on my mobile

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@boarder2020, Ince they are users youc an contact them before their next holiday so pre holiday sales are large.

Im not saying there is a use or not - its an idea and some float some sink. Purpose of this is to see if people here think sink or swim.

Ok I'll try and explain assemble loads of groups split for loads of reasons. No.1 is some are hung over and they dont get out of bed at the same time. Sure restaurant meetings are relatively decent and convenient but this is just easier.

You just click meet. Whereever your friends are on the mountain it brings you together more efficiently than maps or pre defined meets So considering you only would meet maybe once a day why not use an app once a day to do the job for you.

Getting home is also useful, Id definitely switch that on which meant I knew every time I could squeeze the last minute out of the day with certainty Id be able to turn back at the right time and without wasting any time with maps have my return navigated and communicated to me.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

@boarder2020, Im not denying some are very map minded and can look at a map only a few times and imprint it to their head.

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@Mr.Egg, In my opinion, it would need to free and you monetise from add ons post use. Be in in resort or post resort or pre next resort.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

From a professional point of view (launched several apps, currently working on a project with Universal):

99.9% of apps fail. The majority of successful ones have a HUGE budget to promote them, and work on a basis of, for example, “on average each user will make me £1.50 over the lifetime of the app, I will therefore spend on average £1 per download.” There’s normally a delay of 3 months from collection to pay out. And collection can happen any time on free apps, so you’ll need to put in at least a year for cash flow. If you think you need 1m users minimum, you’ll need an advertisement budget of £1m.

This doesn’t factor in the development cost or the cost of buying the mapping/piste/run info.

Servers.... if you want the app to cover every resort and have videos/photos, etc. You are going to need a MASSIVE server, and if it got to 1m users, a huge bandwidth.

You might be able to build the app for £20-30k (or 6-12 months of your time), but to make it successful, you’re going to need a massive Kickstarter or the backing of a massive company.

I think the idea of having resorts fly a drone down each run every day is completely unrealistic. The time and/or manpower needed simply to record this and then upload it for every run in every resort is eye watering, and as others have pointed out, would potentially only be relevant for a short time after it was recorded. Who would be expected to do/pay for this? Would the app pay people, or would the resort be expected to foot the bill?

I would also hazard a guess that suggesting routes for people without actually knowing their skiing ability could come with pretty hefty liabilities. What if the run was too difficult and they injured themselves? You would have different legal jurisdictions in different countries also.

From a personal point of view... I would probably download it, be not sure how much I’d use it. I certainly wouldn’t want an ear piece in. And if I absolutely needed them, I’d have to buy a set of AirPods. Not everyone with the app will have them, and limiting people to the functionality of an app because they haven’t got ancillaries won’t go down very well (probably more if it was a paid for app though).

I’d be worried about battery life and data usage. And what happens if I don’t have signal? Would the app still work, or would I be expected to install a huge app with lots of data preloaded?

Lastly, I like to plan where I am going when I’m on the lift. I don’t particularly want to get out my £850 phone to do this, which would mean taking my gloves of to hold my phone securely and to press the screen. Definitely wouldn’t want to do that if it was -15, and would much rather risk dropping a free bit of paper that I’d picked up from the apartment.

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@Timmycb5, I hadn't thought about this before but what is the liability of software advice. If, for example, as@boarder2020 suggested it takes longer than the app given time to make a connecting lift does the app vendor have to pay the the taxi fare? I suppose thas is why the signposts scattered all over La Plagne telling you what time to start heading back to Les Arcs are so generous, often suggesting start back times over an hour more than required (probably to cover for when the Arpette lift is really really bad).

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@johnE, thanks for alerting me to Openskimap which I am going to have to exlore further. I am sure I am not the only one who occasionally gets frustrated by the distortions in resort piste maps and wonder what the topographical relationships are in reality.

First browse showed that it includes a couple of curiosities: lifts that are only in the planning stage (though whether they will actually see the light of day is another matter). Ones I spotted include the proposed entry gondola to the Grand Massif area from the Arve Valley, and a possible link (not even sure it has reached a serious planning stage) between Grand Massif and Portes du Soleil.

But on topic, I agree there is data right there to create an App, and if that App could be refined by user tracks as they happen it would get quite reliable. So doable ... but there must be a question over the commercial viability.

@j b, "First browse showed that it includes a couple of curiosities: lifts that are only in the planning stage (though whether they will actually see the light of day is another matter). Ones I spotted include the proposed entry gondola to the Grand Massif area from the Arve Valley, and a possible link (not even sure it has reached a serious planning stage) between Grand Massif and Portes du Soleil."

The one into Flaine was established as a service lift during the build phase of Flaine for direct routing materials to the ridge just above the village. Recently been talk of establishing passenger use as the route is verified but no equipment in place.

Link to PdS is essentially up through the village of Verchaix which is opposite Morillon in the Giffre valley. The road goes up and into Les Gets extended ski area as you can walk, mtb it as I understand it. Verchaix is also in the Les Gets commune I believe although in a separate valley, hence the proposed connection. They've been talking about this one for at least 15 years.

You know it makes sense.

@j b, I prefer the similar OpenSnowMap - the topography has better colour shadings, and it tends to load quicker.

http://www.opensnowmap.org/

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

@ski3, interesting to hear the Flaine link has actually existed in the past - I assume it was freight only. I liked the idea, on the basis day skiers from Geneva and Annemasse could use the train to access skiing. (I think there is a similar motivation, in part, to St Gervais proposing a link from the Le Fayet rail station to the Bettex lift, though in that case it would also enhance commercial development of Le Fayet which is part of the St Gervais commune).

For Flaine-PdS, the dashed route was a little different from the one you give, from Samoens up to join the red run off Chamossiere. I am not sure whether your route would go to somewhere nearby or to somewhere on Ranfoilly. In both cases I suspect they would need to be two-way, the prospects for a piste on a south-facing slope ending well under 1000m aren't great. (Magland-Flaine would also be two way, but the rationale is better as an entry point from an easy-access base).

A snowHead

I'm struggling to imagine how the meet up functionality would work in reality. I get the idea from the point of view of the person requesting the meet, but what about the others in the group, scattered across the mountain. Do they get orders to change direction, half way down a piste? What if they don't want to meet up yet, does the app get increasingly angry and keep telling them to do a u turn when they ignore its orders?

A snowHead

i do think it is a good idea , if the app is easy to use and foc , i would say at least every day of skiing we lose someone in the groupand spend half an hour trying to explain which route they need to take to meet us or we take a wrong turn when trying to find a specific restaurant . based on no other logic that your app will reduce the amount of time and stress in those circumstances i would say it would be a great idea . hopefully you can fine tune it get the funding and make it a reality

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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How about re-focusing the USP of your app away towards resorts? A lot of resorts don't have apps; or the apps they do have are pretty ropey. But what the resorts do control is the real-time information. But in my experience, it's obvious they don't have the time/money/experience to contract the app that skiers need. Our resort app has got worse - not better - over time, because they think people want funky activity targets: when what they really want are quick-click to the webcams, updated lists of runs and lifts open/closed, and to book their pass on the way to the resort, by-passing the ticket office. Perhaps cafés and restaurant fullness, Instructor availability & rates etc. etc. V.1 of our local app had friend tracking and they dropped it in V.2

If you came up with a Ski Resort platform you might get more traction. This would allow the resort to easily set up maps, lifts, pistes, restaurant menus, webcams, parking, etc. and update them quickly when conditions change. Plus be able to send out important alerts about bad weather, closures etc. You could allow for a branding wrap and instead of having to spend a fortune on contracting a bunch of developers who probably don't have a clue about the market, they'd be able you use your platform and have their customers just download the associated app. For smaller resorts, they'd be able to get a resort-specific-looking app for a fraction of the cost of developing one themselves.

And don't forget about summer. If you offered bike trail info, lifts, walking routes, and status updates that would be a discriminator.

My thinking here is that you really need the resort to buy into the app for it to work better than the generic competitors. So if they have to buy in, then incentivise them to commit by giving them something they want: which is a cheap platform that provides a useful, resort-specific service. For which the resort will have to pay a purchase and subscription charge. But a charge that is much less than going it alone and doing their own application development and then continued updates every year. They also benefit from the experience gained at other resorts, which will get incorporated into annual updates.

Just a thought.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Interesting concept that seems to be based on a personal scenario where you’ve been separated and lost trying to find friends etc. I don’t know about everyone else, but when I go skiing, we just jump on a lift, get off at the top then head down a run and all ski together, then repeat. There may be 5 minutes downtown when on a lift and you consult a map and then plan the next 3/4/5 runs and lifts and then go and do them. The only time I “plan” where to ski it at the end of the day to ensure I can get back to where I need to be with plenty of time

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Not convinced by the "meet at the optimum place" idea. Even if limited to a restaurant etc you might find in say Courchevel that it is £££. Being able to specify a time and location for say lunch, with the app telling you when (and how) to start heading in that direction, might have some merit. But even that has some functional challenges. Ideally it would know how fast you ski on different slopes, or learn/refine that over a week - but then somehow allow for the slowest member of the group on that particular day. And not sure how it would allow for you being "on schedule" (so no messages) but then you make an unexpected turn and so become 30 minutes late - unless it immediately tells you to stop and walk back up 100m!

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

My 2ct:

1. The usefulness of such an app depends heavily of everyone having it. Which isn't even the case for Whatsapp. Seems like a rather steep hill to climb.

2. I would never ski with an earpiece.

After all it is free

Do I have to ski/board with my phone in my hand to direct me to my group? I've never really found apps that useful when on the mountain, but maybe I'm missing something.

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@Tristero, ITs a free app it takes 20 seconds to d/l and only one per group need it
As for ear piece, it is an addition - fundamentally this is still an interactive visual map. So you can take your phone out of your pocket and look at it quicker than you can to take a map out of your pocket and unfold it. It instantly shows you where you are and where you are getting to and how to get there. It highlights the routes and lifts you need to take.

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@porkpiefox, No - you can look at the directions and memorise it as you would do with a paper ski map and whenever you took your phone out it would update with where you are highlighted or you could set notifcations for an ear piece or headphones etc if you wear them.

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@maggi, Re-routing - re-routing, messaging Jeff to say you'll be late! Now for instance Jeff doesnt need to wait for you and you can 'chase' him with it bringing you progressively closer to him.

Honestly I only see this app being used twice a day buy most to meet up once and to get home.

I personally like both as whilst sure meet up at X is fine - this way its ski where ever do whatever and when we want to meet just one person who probably listens to music anyway put the headphones on notifications and lead the way.

As for getting home, again it gives the freedom just to jump into a system not care where you are going and then safely just turn on 'home James'

If users just use it twice a day and then in the evening look at some of the reporting data it is a huge huge success.

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

A snowHead

@boarder2020, i agree with much of what you say but equally the fact is we do look at a paper map and we all carry our phone with us. Dropping your phone on a ski lift is as unlikely as dropping your ski pole sure it may happen but i generally see one pole dropped per trip out of millions of skiers (and I bet there is more people losing their phone drunk at the Apres Ski!)

I think if digital offers more than paper then it is worth investment into that upgrade.

I guess lots of updates such as which Apres Ski has live music that day or how the restaurants are graded on style or price or even availability.

Which pistes have been rated as very good for different types of skiiers based on live feedback.

There is already proprietary software to link ski lift activity with maps so as to give awareness of queues but this can be more sophisticated and actually aid resorts by looking to try and guide or offer advice so as to minimise time waited queuing.

..... I just hold the belief that anything a bit of paper can do a phone can do and more so surely there is a value in putting thjat to work, it is only restricted by the amount and quality of data at the end of the day.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

p.s. this is a very old idea from around 20 years ago - kinda wished id just started it then! lol at the same time I was one of the first to pitch for the idea of printing the ski map onto a lens cloth.

I see this as still a very viable option and actually a very good marketing technique - the lens cloth is sponsored on the rear as well as being part subsidised by the resort as well as our app and given for free as it is owned by the app and promotes the app.

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@Timmycb5,

So many here stating nervousness about pulling the phone out! Noone is nervous to pull their pack of fags out! ROFL! Seriously though Im always doing so and dont quite grasp this nervousness. Remove glove unzip pocket clasp phone take out use put back in pocket zip pocket. It we cant handle this coordination then how on earth do we manage all to ski those gnarly blacks with consummate perfection!!!

Lol - thanks for the feedback - I do grasp that snow-heads may represent a very specific part of the market, experienced and well versed to navigating the mountain but those also often are group leaders and some times also perhaps it is ncie to say look ive turned this app on you turn yours ive taken you to an easy area of the mountain its all blues, ski where you like im off for 2 hours to blitz and ive set a meeting point just stick a head phone in in 90 mins or look at the screen and it will tell you exactly how to get there easily and safely.

See ya .....

Perhaps if via this post some are convinced and others are at least open to this development then it really has actual legs for the wider market.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

I think most of us could use a phone on a lift successfully 99.9% of the time. That doesn't mean it's not a slight cause for anxiety, or wouldn't be a massive pita that 0.1% of the time it's dropped. So I'd rather use a paper map for now on lifts - with the added benefit I don't need to take my gloves off like I would for a phone screen. I suspect more resorts will start putting maps on chairlift bars though anyway as a means to get rid of papers maps and solving the problem.

After all it is free

What’s wrong with the vastly underrated Acme referees’ whistle as a search and find device?

IMO this is creating something that will only attract a very tiny niche of snow sports users.
Assemble:
If large groups go away skiing together, then split up into several smaller groups for the day, it is usually down to ability and/or keenness. They idea that they will all want to meet up, for anything other than lunch, is remote.
Getting Home:
Every lift has a “time of last lift” signposted as you get on. A quick squint at the piste map will tell you you are 3 lifts from home (or whatever). It is rare that you will have a great deal of choice in alternative routes home anyway. [may be useful, for some, if an alarm was to beep before you got on a certain lift, warning that you might not make it back to the last lift before home in time]

The live feedback concept from drones is fanciful. As is the idea of slope users giving feedback at the end of each run.

As I regularly just ski with my wife as a couple, and occasionally with our girl and her man, it wouldn’t offer anything that would interest me enough to download it.

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MapSki - App for finding your mates and navigating the slopes

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