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Snow & ice advice?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
So, with this year being a write off I am hoping to make the most of this years leave and next with a couple of longer trips next season.

It seems like the most economical thing to do is pick a destination and get a season pass.

I should probably put the disclaimer here that I’m not a great skier (yet) with only 2.5 weeks on planks, not lacking confidence so much as skiing ability rolling eyes. I am however a climbers first and foremost who wants to get better at skiing.

Ideally I would like to head out this side of Christmas for 3/4 weeks (very early season I know) to try and improve my skiing. So ideally need early season snow sure conditions.

I’m then hoping to head out again around mid jan-mid feb for another 4 week block of skiing(hopefully starting to head off the piste) and here’s the catch, Ice climbing...

Then maybe top it off again with some more skiing, but that’s less of an issue.

So, knowledgeable people of snow heads, where do you think I should go? Currently seems that Chamonix, or St Anton (expensive) are the most obvious choices, along with LDA and neighbouring La Grave (mainly for the ice as I dont have a death wish).

Am I overlooking anywhere? Any other recommendations in the Tirol region?


Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Tue 2-03-21 16:43; edited 1 time in total
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Why look anywhere else than Chamonix, the Mecca of climbing and rammed full of motivated, thrill seeking potential partners. This just popped up on my IG thread as an example
https://www.instagram.com/p/CL6x_XOFmSV/?igshid=we8yl583zhun
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
More than anything the late start to the season in Cham (late December) and I have 4 weeks of leave to use before Christmas. It is otherwise ideal with loads to go at across the border too!
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Paging @Scarpa for any intel on ice climbing around his patch in Austria. If so a Salzburger season pass might do you?

Or @Scarlet might know from the jingle jangle harness club what the skinny is around the Inn valley?
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Given that you're fairly new to skiing Chamonix might not suit you as well as somewhere like Tignes, where access to a vast on piste area will probably help you progress more quickly. Chamonix is a fantastic place, but you need to be more experienced to really make use of it.
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@Ascensionist, Hi- Pre-Christmas is limiting for skiing.

Tignes, Hintertux, Kaprun might all suit with very high pistes which open in summer and are open early.

On the plus side it would be cheap. If Mountain Sun is still going / starts again then they have very good value early season places in a well run set up in Tignes- with great staff.

As you suggest later in the season the LDA and la Grave would be good- but also Serre Chevalier - which is the other side of the pass to La Grave (for climbing). I'd guess that mid-Jan-Feb would be much more reliable and Chamonix / Aosta would be good for skiing / ice climbing.

I think that the best thing will be as much tuition as you can arrange / afford- especially if you'd like to be skiing off piste by the end of the season. You need to find your balance and develop good basic skills and then you will be away as I'd guess your head will be good for the rest of it all. Probably best committing to skiing and planning a bit of a climb in between.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
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If I were you, I’d start in Tignes with the Snowheads Pre-Season Bash (PSB). Lots of info elsewhere on this site. Gives access to plenty good terrain for on and off piste, as well as scope for some high-quality instruction through Snowheads. You’ll get your season off to a solid start and practice/ consolidate technique. Also, it’s good fun.

Then once the PSB is done, probably head for Chamonix. Reasonable chance there will be enough snow/ ice to keep you occupied then, even if lapping Grands Montets, unless it’s a poor start to the year. But tbh, until the Saturday before Xmas, you can make it up as you go along - it will be quiet, and there wont be huge demand for accommodation so you can find places at the last minute and that means you can follow the conditions. From Chamonix there’s plenty of options.
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Ascensionist wrote:
More than anything the late start to the season in Cham (late December) and I have 4 weeks of leave to use before Christmas. It is otherwise ideal with loads to go at across the border too!


Not sure where you got your info but Grands Montets usually open for weekends in Nov and full time from start Dec. I think it’s was 5th Dec this year. There’s your 3 weeks before Xmas. Verbier often opens even earlier and your Cham pass will include free Verbier vouchers in case you want some variety. Get some touring skis if you’re fit and want to get into ski touring / mountaineering. There’s some ace stuff in Cham and loads of people getting after it. There was someone on here recently looking for partners and offering accommodation.
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How good is your ice climbing and general mountaineering? The downside of Cham for both these activities is that the valley is low, and the peaks are high, so:

a) the routes generally involve a slog to get to the start,
b) many approaches are on skis at this time of year,
c) the routes are, in general, relatively long, hard, and exposed to weather
d) avalanche danger can be very serious

If you climb at a decent level (Scottish V), are a reasonable mountaineer happy to bivy for a night or two in winter conditions, and can navigate in questionable conditions to the routes, then the above points are largely irrelevant. The valley level ice routes might make you wish you'd just gone to Scotland, or they can be great. I spent 2 weeks in Cham about 30 years ago, with a plan to climb and ski. We completed one valley-level ice route, aborted 3 high-mountain routes, and switched to skiing. (I've spent a lot more time in the valley since then, but not targeting winter climbing!)

If you stick in one ski-pass area, you'll save (v. approx) £150-200/week vs moving areas, so budgetary constraints might impact the practicality of moving between e.g. Tignes, Cham and Deux Alpes.
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Cogne would be a good option for ice climbing. Short trip through the Mont Blanc tunnel from Chamonix or you could base yourself somewhere in the Aosta valley which would probably be a cheaper option.

https://www.iceclimbingcogne.com/
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Just a few Austrian places you might be interested in (not sure how much ice they will have in December though)


http://youtube.com/v/KD52uHWyMzI



http://youtube.com/v/aRKbQZ7cEkE



http://youtube.com/v/abFeK5fPJwk
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
On the other hand, if you want to start into off piste, the off-piste in Chamonix gets skied out quite quickly, unless you skin a bit. La Grave is not a place to go early season as it needs more snow to fill in crevasses etc, but in any case that is somewhere to go when you have had more experience.
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So, to answer a few questions:

Yes I am reasonably competent, comfortable leading Scottish V, reasonable nav ect.

More committing winter alpine faces are something I would like to do, but finding equally competent partners is hard. Ideally water ice with sub 2 hour approaches. Missing the last lift down is never fun. Because of this I would prefer to head out somewhere more accessible so I can guide less competent friends up some easier ice with confidence rather than having an epic.

Planning an ice trip seems fine, loads of locations to go at (I tried investing in the Tyrol and Ecrin guide book to try and help make the decision).

I’m not expecting any ice in December, but want to focus on getting my skiing up to scratch. I know everyone says this, but I think I have had a fairly steep learning curve, being fit, with good balance etc. (Confidently skiing reds, and a couple of blacks by the end of my last trip). I will be investing some time and money in more lessons though!

Ideally I dont want to be moving resorts due to the savings from picking one and going for a season pass. Budget is still a fairly big consideration, with the idea of 4 week blocks being to get better financial value out of the time off. (Otherwise I would just head to tignes early and Italy in jan)

Thanks for all the opinions so far though, certainly helping steer my decision making. The ice climbing videos are just depressing though knowing how good it was elsewhere in the U.K. and being stuck down south.

Re touring, that’s very much the plan!
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
But for season passes you do have some options that very much allow you to change location like the Tirol and Salzburg superpasses and the Swiss magic pass. And a 4 weeks at a time the savings on a B&B or appartment aren't that much over a week by week.
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UCPA would be worth a look - for ice climbing etc as well as skiing, all the companions you could want, at all levels, and cheaper than most alternatives.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
But for season passes you do have some options that very much allow you to change location like the Tirol and Salzburg superpasses and the Swiss magic pass. And a 4 weeks at a time the savings on a B&B or appartment aren't that much over a week by week.


No idea about Austria but if you offered me a Magic pass or a Mont Blanc Unlimited pass I know which I’d choose.

This was the post from the person offering accommodation and looking for partners
https://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=154997&highlight=
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Re the pre-Christmas skiing, do you have an arrival date in mind ? With Christmas day on a Saturday, resort opening dates are likely to be a bit more random than normal, but as a rough categorisation, resorts will either:
1. Be high, snow-sure and have a glacier: e.g. Tignes, Hintertux, Kaprun, Saas-Fee, Zermatt and almost be open every day from late November
2. Be reasonably big and high and are very likely to open some lifts every day from early December. E.g. LDA, Grands-Montet, Verbier, St Anton. However, with Christmas on a Saturday, they may open all week from 4th Dec, or wait till 11th Dec. My guess is, for most, this will depend on snow conditions. 4th Dec may be more likely, but if you chose in advance and it didn't work out, you may have a dull week
3. Other resorts, which will likely open on weekends in December, but only on weekdays from 18th Dec

Personally, if I had to make a decision more than a couple of weeks before travelling, and wanted to ski before 11th Dec, I'd go for category 1. You may be able to get more definitive information from individual resorts closer to the time (maybe in October or November).

It's also worth thinking how much variety you need for the skiing in December. Before 18th Dec, most resorts in category 2 that open lifts will open only a few before 18th Dec, so you need to consider if you'd be happy going up and down the same run 10 or 20 times a day for maybe a couple of weeks. This may be fine if you're concentrating on improving technique.

Re the climbing, this may be below what you want, but Alpe d'Huez has a fair amount of shortish (2 or 3 pitch) easily accessible Scottish grade II to IV (I had no need to check for higher grades) routes a short stroll from the mid-station. I think the Alpe d'Huez, LDA and Serre-Chevalier passes give a few days at the other resorts if you have transport
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I was going to suggest Saas Fee too. I've never skied there but I've spent a week doing easy summer Alpine mountaineering and would imagine there is plenty of climbing accessible in winter. The skiing and the town are high.

What is your alpine climbing experience? You sound like a strong climber but there is a bit to get used to about the length of routes/ speed /efficiency if you're switching form UK to Alps
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@Ascensionist,
Look closely at the Ecrins / Queyras area.

Climbers paradise with Ailefroide (bouldering to big multi-pitch routed) second only to Chamonix and a gazillion of sports routes in nearby destinations.
Ice climbing second to none....from the ice-climbing festival at Argentiere le Bessée each year to valleys like Fournel and Freissinieres plus villages like Ceillac. La Grave is just over the Col du Lauteret from the Serre Chevalier ski area, which is brilliant and where the Snowheads off-piste bash is held each year. La Grave is a mecca for adventurous off-piste. Doug Coombes lived there in preference to Chamonix. Plus La Grave has some great ice climbing too. Ski touring is great in the area....as adventurous as you want, try the Tour de la Meije for size....and the Queyras is renowned.

We have a place in Briancon. After many years there is still plenty of stuff to discover and if age wasn't a factor, plenty to learn. Other advantages include easy access from mulitple airports or by train (TGV to Oulx in Italy or direct to Briancon).

Really, it's just super....not that I'm biased. Madeye-Smiley
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pam w wrote:
UCPA would be worth a look - for ice climbing etc as well as skiing, all the companions you could want, at all levels, and cheaper than most alternatives.


The idea was DIY and airBNB

Also 4 weeks in a small room with bunk beds is less than ideal. I have done a week of UCPA, it was great!

Also I dont think they do winter mountaineering, but I would much rather be self lead on that as being guided takes away from the sense of adventure!
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@viv

I would like to head out very late november and use as much of this years leave as possible. The Tyrol snow card seems to suit best here for early season glacial skiing followed by somewhere else further into the season

If I ignore my early season requirement there are loads of great resorts that have ice within a reasonable distance.

Interesting to hear about the phased opening of places like LDA. I was aware of the ice in ADH though. Serre chevalier seems ideal as a resort with local ice and a place to start to venture off piste

I fear I might die at la Grave? (The skiing, the ice is fine)

Thanks for the comprehensive reply and loads of really useful stuff to go on.

Maybe I should cost up 2 resorts and see if it’s in budget? That or stick to the Tyrol region with the snow card
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BobinCH wrote:

No idea about Austria but if you offered me a Magic pass or a Mont Blanc Unlimited pass I know which I’d choose.

This was the post from the person offering accommodation and looking for partners
https://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=154997&highlight=


Yebbut there are probably better places tham Cham for a 2.5 week skier to hone their skills and which present better pre Xmas conditions like e.g. glaciers. ( I know Cham has glaciers but not really the pisted skiing kind)
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@Ascensionist, great idea, how about Aosta valley Italy. Early season to cervina/zermatt. Ice climbing Congne, then a multitude of resorts to choose from. The only downsides are you need a car but the roads are generally clear and you would need a companion.
Chamonix early season is unreliable.
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I think, for your specific needs, Aosta, as @jbob, suggests, fits really well. Valley ski pass including la Rosiere and Alagna (which aren't in the valley) for 2021 is a not bad value €700.

So, Cervinia gets you your early season glacier if required although Monterosa usually opens weekends in mid-late November and fully early December. At your current early stage of skiing that will do nicely.

You then have heaps of touring/ski mountaineering inc. Monterosa. (Zermatt an option). In full season loads of other stations to visit. details https://www.skilife.ski/en/

Exceptional and exceptional value food and wine. And my suspicion accom in Aosta way cheaper than in resort. Car is probably essential, but for this sort of adventure and 4week trips no great hardship driving down surely?

no idea on ice climbing as it's nuts.
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I'd also go the glacier route for December too. The number of lifts that are open depend more on the number of visitors than the snow conditions. Look at the glaciers now, some have 370cm of base but are only running around 25% of the lifts because they just don't have the visitors. There are very few resorts that have many more visitors in december when snow conditions are good. If you want to improve your skiing then budget in some lessons, you might be able to get some discount if you do many days.
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@DB, hmmm, round here the glaciers (Tignes, Cervinia) are closed 'cos of the 'rona. Would be running all lifts otherwise ... ??
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under a new name wrote:
@DB, hmmm, round here the glaciers (Tignes, Cervinia) are closed 'cos of the 'rona. Would be running all lifts otherwise ... ??


Yes if many lifts and the ski schools are normally running (all week) in Dec then it's a good choice - which in most cases probably means it's a glacier. The resorts that are not normally open or open just a couple of lifts won't suddenly open everything up in decemeber just because there's a lot of snow is the point I was trying to make.
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Ascensionist wrote:


I fear I might die at la Grave? (The skiing, the ice is


I always held that view - but speaking to strangers in a pub in Val Thorens changed my opinion.

I got chatting to four lads (40+) who had been skiing for donkeys years and they had recently discovered La Grave. I've not been, so, like Ascensionist, expressed my concern at the possibility of death there Shocked . In reply they explained that, in their 4 guided, one week, trips they had yet to experience near-death experiences or "no fall zones," as the guide would very much tailor the experience to the group's experience and aspirations; and there was lots of skiing available without risk to life.

In essence, they raved about it and described the experience as life changing - urging me to give it a try.

La Grave sounds like the French version of Silverton, Colorado, which I have visited twice, and is now very much on my "to do list." wink
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@DB, ah, that hadn't come across as you said,
Quote:
Look at the glaciers now, some have 370cm of base but are only running around 25% of the lifts
. Early opening is indeed often limited in terms of uplift or weekends only, etc.


@Bergmeister, I can't imagine that La Grave would be at all attractive to a 2.5 week skier, nor their guide!
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Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
BobinCH wrote:

No idea about Austria but if you offered me a Magic pass or a Mont Blanc Unlimited pass I know which I’d choose.

This was the post from the person offering accommodation and looking for partners
https://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=154997&highlight=


Yebbut there are probably better places tham Cham for a 2.5 week skier to hone their skills and which present better pre Xmas conditions like e.g. glaciers. ( I know Cham has glaciers but not really the pisted skiing kind)


Sure. It was more the stay in one place, strong Alpinist slant for which I would imagine Cham would be ideal. Nov/early Dec skiing is a bit of a lottery anywhere so not sure I’d base the location on that.

Aosta valley a good shout with transport. The skyway lift up to 3500m is a gem amongst many other options.

Serre Che / La Grave would no doubt also be memorable and a few Snowhead partners there.

Suspect from his comments @Ascensionist is fit and determined and will progress fast. Wouldn’t worry about having lots of easy terrain. Get a lesson or 2 or find some partners who can give him a few tips / video feedback and sure he’ll be smashing it down the off piste soon.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
BobinCH wrote:
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
BobinCH wrote:

No idea about Austria but if you offered me a Magic pass or a Mont Blanc Unlimited pass I know which I’d choose.

This was the post from the person offering accommodation and looking for partners
https://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=154997&highlight=


Yebbut there are probably better places tham Cham for a 2.5 week skier to hone their skills and which present better pre Xmas conditions like e.g. glaciers. ( I know Cham has glaciers but not really the pisted skiing kind)


Sure. It was more the stay in one place, strong Alpinist slant for which I would imagine Cham would be ideal. Nov/early Dec skiing is a bit of a lottery anywhere so not sure I’d base the location on that.

Aosta valley a good shout with transport. The skyway lift up to 3500m is a gem amongst many other options.

Serre Che / La Grave would no doubt also be memorable and a few Snowhead partners there.

Suspect from his comments @Ascensionist is fit and determined and will progress fast. Wouldn’t worry about having lots of easy terrain. Get a lesson or 2 or find some partners who can give him a few tips / video feedback and sure he’ll be smashing it down the off piste soon.


I'm sure he will pick it up quickly. Climbing related head for heights also helps with the terrain. A lot of dealing with steeper slopes is in the mind
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Thanks again for all the feedback so far.

Again it might sound a bit arrogant, but I feel the combination of good fitness, good mental game and existing experience moving on snow has helped me make pretty good progress in my short time skiing so far, and I would hope it would continue to do so moving forward.

My plan was to spend the Pre Christmas portion of the trips getting my skiing up to scratch with maybe a lesson or two per week. Hopefully getting some company off friends who are more accomplished skiers than myself if I can tempt them.

The second chunk in jan/feb would be where I would look to explore the mountain more. I anticipate 2/3 days a week climbing and the rest skiing. Ideally combining both in a day at some more remote venues.

I took up skiing to allow me to explore the mountains further (and to make descents more fun) the goal has always been to get off piste.

It’s good to hear that La Grave isn’t all total death. Perhaps it is worth looking at heading across two resorts.

So far I think my current stance is the following:
Switzerland just seems too expensive!

Austria looks great for ice and Skiing. Something like the Tyrol snow card covers both trips. Not really sure where to base myself on each trip though with it being fairly spread out, and minimal travel in the morning is preferred. The Austrian terrain also seems more forgiving for starting to explore off piste. Air BNB seems more lacking there than France however?

Italy: I had written it off, but will have another look. Again seems fairy spread out though?

France: second half of the trip spent in ADH or Serre Chevalier ideally. LDA makes more sense financially as I can likely get away with a season pass and get my early season skiing in there as well? The best option would be Tignes Pre Christmas, followed by somewhere else after.

From a skiing perspective I’m really looking for somewhere to grow into (the more challenging the pistes the better I guess?). I’m just making things difficult by limiting the geography based on the ice and climbing availability.
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Yeah Austria can be a bit of a pain for listings in one place but they do have a pretty established and broad offering in private rooms and B&Bs. Tiscover and Bergfex have reasonably wide coverage and Booking.com seems to be getting better. As a last resort there is always individual tourist office but that in practice usually means emailing individual owners as many lack integrated systems.
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@Ascensionist, Do you want an indoor climbing wall to keep up your climbing fitness ?
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Not at all fussed about indoor walls to be honest. After a year of almost zero indoor climbing I’m sure a months skiing can’t hurt the fitness.

I find ice is more of an insurance issue than strength anyway.

I’m avoiding hotels and B&B’s as the plan was to mainly self cater (need a kitchen of sorts) I’m happy to be told I’m wrong about the facilities available though.
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I reckon you should split your time - somewhere with a glacier pre-Xmas (e.g., Tignes) then Chamonix after . I reckon 2-3 weeks pre-Christmas will get your skiing to a level you can enjoy Chamonix (I spent my 5th week on skis in Chamonix and managed a few offpiste runs down to the Argentiere glacier form the Grands Montets and I suspect you'll learn at least as quick as I did). I think Chamonix best fits what you want after Christmas
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Only just saw this thread. I normally get the SuperSalzburg pass with gives approx 65 resorts, or you can save a little and get the Amade on with (I think) 24 resorts on it. This year there was so much ice around during the cold snap a fortnight ago. One amazing place is Rauris.

https://www.raurisertal.at/en/winter/active-in-winter/ice-climbing/

They have a nice 13m practice tower and all these icefalls a short distance away.



Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Thu 4-03-21 21:10; edited 2 times in total
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