 Poster: A snowHead
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What is the situation for travel in France this Spring/Summer? Are hotels due to be open this Spring?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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better luck asking a magic 8 ball
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| davidthornton wrote: |
| What is the situation for travel in France this Spring/Summer? Are hotels due to be open this Spring? |
Sadly they could well be in another wave/lockdown by then, given their reluctance to the jab.
It appears that the majority may prefer to leave things to chance 
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If France loses yet another tourist season, on top of Spring/Summer 2020 and Winter 2021, it would catastrophic economically. Surely, the French government cannot contemplate the cost of that.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Summer 2020 was as busy as any other actually.
Les Deux Alpes was busier than normal, everything open. I had a few days down south in Pezenas, it was heaving. Drive back to Lyon was a nightmare in very heavy traffic. In Lyon over late summer and early Autumn everything was open as normal. I even managed a performance at the opera.
Hopefully some normality will have returned by this summer.
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It's because they're currently using the Astra Zeneca vaccine which is supposedly not so effective in the over 65 group........
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| KenX wrote: |
| It's because they're currently using the Astra Zeneca vaccine which is supposedly not so effective in the over 65 group........ |
Just for confirmation, there is no evidence to suggest that the Oxford/AZ vaccine is less effective for over 65s, and sound evidence that the immune response to this vaccine is equally strong in all age groups.
There are suggestions that the German and French health regulators will soon change their policy with regard to using this vaccine for the over-65s, matching the advice of the EU regulator, the EMA, and the UK regulator, the MHRA.
I think the damage to this vaccine’s reputation will take some time to repair, with the cost being paid in a slower release from social distancing restrictions.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I suspect that the overriding of the EMA advice about the AstraZenica vaccine by countries such as France, Gemany, Italy etc was more about local politics than actual health considerations. If you cannot get hold of something then say it was rubbish anyway and hence save face.
It is, however, good news for the rest of the world. The AstraZenica vaccine is now being delivered via the Covax scheme to Ghana and Côte d'Ivoire.
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| johnE wrote: |
I suspect that the overriding of the EMA advice about the AstraZenica vaccine by countries such as France, Gemany, Italy etc was more about local politics than actual health considerations. If you cannot get hold of something then say it was rubbish anyway and hence save face.
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That would be my take, too. It also decreases demand, thus relieving pressure on the systems to effectively vaccinate.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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One thing I'd be interested in knowing is when it becomes OK for me to transit France in a car to reach Switzerland or return to the UK from there. I ask because when we came home from CH last September, the French Déclaration form had a box to tick for 'transiting France to return to your primary residence' but oddly, didn't have a box for 'transiting France to another country' (if I recall - in any case, on the form, the outbound journey didn't match as specific a category as the return did). Also, I see that at the moment there's a new form for anyone travelling after 18:00 to carry (is that right?), which would be a bit tight (Calais->CH is about 8 hours drive time, but realistically, it takes longer if you stop to swap drivers and take sensible breaks).
The gov.uk definition of what constitutes a valid reason for foreign travel is ambiguous enough to make travelling to our apartment as part of the business of renting it a grey area. We genuinely usually go after the winter season, just to see what maintenance/refurbishment needs doing, if any, so we can plan or organise work over the summer. Now we're semi-retired, we'd probably drive down and stay for more than a long Weekend. So, a key determinant is going to be the regime in France in terms of transiting the country.
I daresay it's a bit to early to be certain, but I'd be interested in what French residents have to say.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@LaForet, when we did a delivery trip to our flat in France in December - so I think similar restrictions to now - the attestation had "transit relating to long distance journeys" as a reason to be out during curfew. Although we were pretty efficient with our stops to swap drivers we knew we were unlikely to arrive before 6, and on our departure we left at 5 in the morning to ensure arrival to schedule. Nobody challenged us though, but we had our signed attestations ready just in case.
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My son (who is in France right now) drove from Provence to Italy, then up to Alps, then reversed the whole thing, to pick up his son who lives in Genoa to take him to meet the rest of the family up in the Alps for a week's break. He's 8, and had been quarantining because a schoolmate tested positive, trying to quarantine even from his Mum, who has MS, in a tiny apartment with no outside space. He did enjoy a week playing in the snow, especially toboganning. My son said they were controlled at the 4 border crossings but no problems as he had all the documents and the required tests. The journey was legit because of split family, apparently.
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You know it makes sense.
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This is more a question about travel to France, rather than travel in France.
We intend to travel to France to sort out purchase of an apartment. We have authorisation, all the forms filled in, all the tests organised (and we've had both vaccinations) . . .
But our concern is customs. (we may be worrying unecessarily).
It seems there is a limit of €300 for goods taken into France.
We hope to take with us a clever vacuum cleaner, a steam generator iron, a fancy fan, and touring skis.
The skis were bought from a French company bofore Brexit. The vacuum cleaner from a German company, also before Brexit. (We originally hoped to travel before Brexit)
All together will come to considerably more than €300, and even more than €700 that allows us to pay a flat rate of 2.5%.
So, should we declare all items?
Will they all result in duty/taxes?
Would it be better to take these items separately in multiple trips?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Jonpim, How long have you owned them? When we moved UK=>CH and subsequently CH=>FR the rule was that anything you'd owned for > 6 months was duty and VAT free. And no-one really checked anything. Bearing in mind CH is outside of the EU customs union ... We just had our inventory (for the shipping companies) and a tick boy that we'd owned everything > 6 months.
So if it was me, and everything was out of its wrapper, etc., I'd just be saying I'd owned it all long enough. Are the bindings mounted on the skis?
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Poster: A snowHead
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@Jonpim, really interested to hear the answers you get to this, we're in a similar position to you (by the sounds of it) - due to sign the acte and collect the keys for our apartment purchase around the end of May. When you say you have authorisation, who/how did you get this? Do you have something in writing confirming you are authorised to travel? I ask as i'll need something similar soon !
And like you I have plans to take loads of stuff to our apartment, a few new bits but most will be used goods from our home in the UK (bedding, ski equipment, clothes, etc.) and despite lots of looking around i'm struggling to get a definitive answer as to what I can just take in the car, and what I need to 'declare' for tax purposes at the border.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Legally I have no idea, but in practice my wife travelled out in February with about £8k worth of skis and computers in the car and no one had any interest in what she was taking or why. They only cared about having the correct travel forms for covid filled out and the test results.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@doddsie, yeah, this I think. Although technically she should have presented an appropriately completed Carnet ATA ...
brexshit, the gift that just keeps giving.
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Thank you under a new name and@doddsie: just what we wanted to hear.
We will have everything out of its box. We will make an inventory as suggested.
The vacuum cleaner has clearly been used. The bindings are already mounted on the skis.
DeuxBieres, we have a letter from the notaire and documents related to the sale.
On the GOV.UK site there is a list of permitted reasons to travel. Scroll down beyond Weddings, Funerals, Elite Sports and you get to Other reasonable excuses. There second on the list (after "to fulfil legal obligations") is: "to carry out activities related to buying, selling, letting or renting a residential property".
Fill in the forms, get your PCR tests, and off you go 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Scrap previous answer- its a second home so you are liable for import duties. Buy it there, declare and import, or drive fast and cross your fingers
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Nadenoodlee, you are probably right.
We got the stuff last year and intended to travel before Brexit. Got clobbered by Coronavirus.
I've phoned French Customs. The automatic voice suggests there is an English Speaking option, but you get French whatever you press.
She was quite helpful, but had to keep referring to a manual.
She reckoned the $300 tax free limit was per person, not per group - contradicts some other advice.
She also said skis were "bagage personnel" and therefore not subject to taxes.
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@Jonpim, while @Nadenoodlee, is, I think, technically correct, as you are permanently importing goods to a second home, there is almost no way on this earth that French douaniers are going to officially inventory your car to either charge you on entry and definitely no way at all to charge you when you exit minus some stuff left behind.
I mean, de minimus you are going to take possession of a "new" property so you need the vacuum cleaner to clean it as you have no idea if you can acquire one locally, it's getting warm (thankfully) and you have lots of glass so you'll need the fan, you wear smart shirts (iron), there's probably still some touring (skis), etc., etc.
I'd just wing it, myself.
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@under a new name, i’m correct. No technically about it.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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How will the new TousAntiCovid test certification recording affect you i.e. will you need to have your UK tests recorded on the app before travelling to/in France? And if so, do you know how to get a test result into the app? As mentioned, I'm interested because we hope to transit across/overnight in France in the summer.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@LaForet, I read about the trial in the paper this morning and it looks very encouraging. Let's hope our government will sign up to it.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@LaForet, I am quite against teh idea of "Vaccine Passports" as such, primarily as I am a few weeks away from being jabbed and Mrs U even further.
But I already have the app on my phone from test and trace, and if I can load my vaccinated and +ve antibody status in, than I can't see how that's a bad thing. If it reduces/removes the need for a somewhat meaningless PCR test, then so much the better, (I am all for easy, quick multiple LF tests).
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We have flights and accommodation booked for August. Flights to Bordeaux and accommodation in Pau. Based on current situation I doubt we will be going, but what needs to change to increase the chances and how likely are the changes to happen?
I know that is a crystal ball type question.
From what I have heard about the traffic light system, travel is based on cases, vaccinations and hospital capacity.
I can’t see the french suddenly changing their feeling on getting vaccinated, so I guess we keep our fingers crossed that cases drop with the better weather and hospitals become less pressured as a result.
I just wish they would look at the data from the uk and the obvious link between vaccines and cases. I don’t understand why they can’t see the obvious and jump on the vaccination train.
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You know it makes sense.
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@under a new name, Though not called "vaccination passports" we have in the past had to present yellow fever and cholera vaccination certificates for international travel. No one complained about needing them before. Is the objection mainly about having to have a smart phone for travel. Smart phones are not cheep and I have a friend who refuses to own or use a smart phone. Would the objections disappear if paper certificates were all that were needed?
@smagsmith, France is starting to make progress with vaccination with about 20% of the population being vaccinated. In most counts with the exception of death rates they are about 2 months behind the UK. Keep your fingers crossed trave may be permitted in August
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I don't really understand the distinction made between a vaccination/test certificate and a vaccine/test passport. Inasmuch as people are OK with the former, but not the latter. Aren't they intrinsically the same thing? A paper/app that certifies you'd had a vaccination or test? The only situation where you'll be asked to show a certificate is where it's mandatory to gain entry to a venue or for travel.
Yes, I can understand that people object to how they're used but I can't see what the fuss is about providing the facility to carry a certificate. Surely, most people acknowledge that a demand for a certificate is justified for international travel in a pandemic. And probably most would agree that a demand for a certificate to walk along a promenade would be unjustified i.e. it's the usage which is OK/not OK, not the thing itself (whatever you decide to call it)?
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Poster: A snowHead
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@johnE, I think it's a bit of a nuance, in that e.g. yellow fever risky countries are quite rare... so it's a definite choice, whereby we are apparently looking at verification for any travel at all.
I just don't see why they might be necessary in a properly vaccinated and functioning system.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| under a new name wrote: |
| I just don't see why they might be necessary in a properly vaccinated and functioning system. |
Quite. But given - as you point out - the expectation is that they would apply to any travel at all, they may be needed in the interval before any potential traveller anywhere in the world can reliably be expected to be properly vaccinated.
We are biased by being in European countries that are doing pretty well at vaccination, worldwide coverage isn't expected before 2023 at the earliest.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| under a new name wrote: |
| @johnEI just don't see why they might be necessary in a properly vaccinated and functioning system. |
I think the key thing here is the word pandemic i.e. an epidemic that is global. The UK should hit herd immunity sometime around July-August, at the current rate (where >75% of the population has had both inoculations and any new outbreaks fizzle out).
But the UK's borders are porous: the UK had 630,000 air passengers arriving from abroad in Jan 2021 [ONS] - this in the very middle of a 'total lockdown'. Only 32% of these were returning UK nationals and the rest (428,400) were non-British arrivals. As of May 17th. the odds are that these flow will increase: in a typical non-pandemic month like Feb 2020 there were 6.8 million (sic) air arrivals, 49% of whom were non-UK citizens.
We are an island but for better or worse, we're not isolated - in fact, we're an international hub. So we have to take a global view - saying that we're OK is like, say, the IoW having >75% fully vaccinated and then lifting restrictions despite everywhere around it being in the middle of an epidemic: people would be arriving and falling ill and need hospitalisation, and any vaccine-resistant variant would run rampant and they'd be back at square#1 again. This is us in a global context.
So this is why I think that travel in France will be on a knife edge this summer, because while things are looking positive at the moment, it won't take much to destabilise that improvement. And why, if we do manage to get there, any UK traveller will have to be prepared for the possibility that it could all change very quickly.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
I think it's a bit of a nuance, in that e.g. yellow fever risky countries are quite rare... so it's a definite choice, whereby we are apparently looking at verification for any travel at all.
I just don't see why they might be necessary in a properly vaccinated and functioning system.
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I think we are a very, very longway from a fully vaccinated and functioning system. Many countries haven't started vaccinating anyone yet.
I think at least vaccination certificates will be required for travel, whether or not they are called "passports" is not important.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Well. Boots PCR testing service. I am impressed.
Booked for 11.40 yesterday. Arrived early, but pharmacist Poonam happily took us on.
Quick, professional, gentle testing procedure.
And test result back at 08.42 this morning!!
Superb.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| LaForet wrote: |
The UK should hit herd immunity sometime around July-August, at the current rate (where >75% of the population has had both inoculations and any new outbreaks fizzle out).
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The math says we need 86% to achieve herd immunity. That is unachievable without children being vaccinated. Therefore it will be well into the autumn.
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I see a variety of figures being put forward here for the acquisition of Herd Immunity, but none backed up by any reputable source.
A simple Google search produces a number of sites suggesting Herd Immunity is not just a matter of simple percentages, and may even not be achievable.
Mayo Clinic April 22: Herd immunity and COVID-19 (coronavirus): What you need to know
Nature March 18: Five reasons why COVID herd immunity is probably impossible
The Guardian April 9: UCL team’s claim that herd immunity set to be achieved in UK disputed
The Lancet April 19: COVID-19 herd immunity by immunisation: are children in the herd? (https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00212-7/fulltext)
Forbes April 23: If Herd Immunity Is Your Plan To Beat Covid, You Need A Plan B
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@ringmaster Re herd immunity my understanding is that it can be calculated theoretically, but requires a number of assumptions to come out with a final figure. It varies with any epidemic and disease, so while the theoretical calculations are useful, it's only in retrospect that you find out what the actual herd immunity % number was. I've been picked up before for using a specific number, because there will always be different calculations based on different assumption numbers. I have, indeed, read around the subject and historical evidence is that HI ranges from as low as 45% to as high as 98%.
@jonpim I haven't quoted all the sources because I frankly (a) can't be bothered to do the citation work and (b) don't think most readers are going bother to follow up - this isn't an academic forum and (c) most ski forum readers of a thread entitled Travel in France are going to find an academic epidemiological research paper approach boring/tangential.
Last time I quoted a figure it indeed put us into autumn as reaching the HI point and got 'corrected' by a number of people who regarded it as being too pessimistic. This time, I came out with July-August and am being corrected for it being too optimistic. I can't win 
Really, the point I was trying to emphasise (and which I think we agree on) is that we're nowhere near the herd immunity level yet, whatever number you regard as the most accurate prediction. And that until we pass the HI point, the situation is going to be unstable. And even when/if the UK does get to that point, it's a major international travel hub and with pre-pandemic flight arrival rates of over 6 million in one month (sic) how the rest of the world is faring will remain a key factor for some time to come.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@LaForet, The math theory is simple. Rather than drifting further here. Just PM me if you want to see it.
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@Jonpim, so ... "A vaccine’s ability to block transmission doesn’t need to be 100% to make a difference. Even 70% effectiveness would be “amazing”, says Samuel Scarpino, a network scientist who studies infectious diseases at Northeastern University"
And from Rob's post a few days ago, looks like all the vaccines currently in use are around 80-85% effective in reducuing transmission ... so that sounds pretty good.
And IMO a fairly important point seems that infection in and of itself is less important than healthcare system impact. C-19 is not terribly (yes, yes, long covid aside) important if you are sub 60 y.o. ... so ...
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FAQ
