 Poster: A snowHead
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I had a mini meltdown yesterday as met some friends at the top of a slope, normally pisted even now, and the bottom 3rd was not pisted
Everyone else was very happy
I'm 6 months post op from an inverse shoulder replacement, so a smidge nervous about falling (it was the second op, the first 3 years before failed; I have been warned not to mess this one up as not a lot of options if I do!!)
My history in powder is from the odd group lesson 10 years ago (on the wrong skis!) where each time I tried powder on the side of the piste I would end up flat on my face in a star fish style shape with my skis left somewhere behind me  !!
So, on that basis, my apprehension is understandable as I can't afford to fall like that - really need to try not to fall at all!!!
For years people have just said - it's easy, lean back and it'll be fine
I'm pretty sure it's slightly more technical than that
So I'm looking for some easy advice or videos to watch to help me. I'm not going into big powder but would be handy not to have a meltdown if faced with a few inches of powder on a 'normally' pisted area!!
I did get down fairly ok. I tried to put my weight onto my heels more than flat feet, without actually leaning back, and didn't use my toes/front of my feet at all. I'm quite chuffed I got down without falling, but due to the meltdown I can't say I enjoyed it!! LOL
But, I'd really like to! LOL
Possibly not ideal skis - I've got K2 Talkback 88's with Marker Kingpin touring bindings on them. But thats all I have at the mo, so have to work with that! (Hopefully testing some Black Crow Navis Birdie in the next couple of weeks  )
Any advice or suggestions for videos to watch would be aces as then, next time it snows, I'll walk up the 'piste' and ski on the soft bit, not the pisted bit (they aren't pisteing the whole width normally, so I'll know it's pretty flat under the powder)
TIA
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I wrote this on another thread, so in case it's of use:
- Use the right ski for the job
- Be Patient ie. Don't rush the turn
- Use Thigh Steering (combined with some edging) to steer the skis around
- Finish the turns to control speed- which need to be nice and rounded
- A bit of speed is your friend
- Ski two footed and in the middle of the ski, with a slightly narrower stance. Do not lean back
- A little banking at the start of the turn can be useful
- Extending and Flexing to get rebound energy from the skis
- Find a rhythm and use a pole plant
Skis with a reverse camber are like springboards - and the secret is tapping into this springiness for rebound energy, to help turn.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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One way, is like skiing an invisible Mogul - where you extent the legs through the middle of the turn - and then let the pressure of the snow push your knees up (like an invisible Mogul), change edges and repeat.
The easier way, is use a bouncing movement, which introduces rhythm and springs you up and allows you to change edges. Practice in a straight line, just bouncing....then introduce a turning action.
A Banking action can also make it easier.
Try and stay more in the Fall Line
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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The skis should be fine. If you can ski powder on those, any upgrade will be a doddle. I was skiing 30+ cm powder today on all mountain 84s (not my ideal choice in an ideal world, but I had my reasons and didn’t regret it). Took a bit of getting used to, but once I remembered to put my feet closer together, it got a lot easier. Don’t lean back, try and stay centred on your skis with your weight spread fairly evenly, well, more evenly than on hard snow.
I’m guessing it’s not possible right now, but if you get the chance, it’s worth having some lessons specifically focused on off-piste technique. It’s not easy, and takes a bit of practice.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Scarlet wrote: |
The skis should be fine. If you can ski powder on those, any upgrade will be a doddle. I was skiing 30+ cm powder today on all mountain 84s (not my ideal choice in an ideal world, but I had my reasons and didn’t regret it). Took a bit of getting used to, but once I remembered to put my feet closer together, it got a lot easier. Don’t lean back, try and stay centred on your skis with your weight spread fairly evenly, well, more evenly than on hard snow.
I’m guessing it’s not possible right now, but if you get the chance, it’s worth having some lessons specifically focused on off-piste technique. It’s not easy, and takes a bit of practice. |
Brilliant, thank you. Makes me feel a bit more confident in the skis. I know they aren't ideal, but did think they should be 'ok' - but probably not best for learning!! LOL
I can get a lesson (when it snows again), but I need to be fit enough to walk up with the instructor!!!! Whilst I bimble up a little way on my own (and the day I 'hit' powder, friends met me by bus and we got the bus back!) I'm certain I can't walk high enough fast enough to then be able to have a lesson - yet!! Maybe after the holidays!! LOL
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These are awesome. I'll have a proper look this afternoon. Really appreciate the help
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
- Use the right ski for the job
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... being the Nordica Dobermann SL-R (the full R&D FIS version)
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I think we all learn in different ways. What clicked for me from various instructors and guides:
1. Balance-don't lean back. Focus on the feeling of your feet pressed evenly against against the soles of both boots and try not to think about the planks attached. But I think I do add a little push from the heel end at the end of the turn.
2. Even pressure is the aim as between both legs down into the feet-you are pedalling-not "edging" the ski which is a very piste orientated, but doesn't work in the powder. One great tip to control the "shooting out" feeling at the end of the turn-consciously stand on the uphill ski (as well as the downhill ski).
3. Keep legs closer together-pretend you have a glove clamped between your knees and want to keep it there.
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| Perty wrote: |
I think we all learn in different ways. What clicked for me from various instructors and guides:
1. Balance-don't lean back. Focus on the feeling of your feet pressed evenly against against the soles of both boots and try not to think about the planks attached. But I think I do add a little push from the heel end at the end of the turn.
2. Even pressure is the aim as between both legs down into the feet-you are pedalling-not "edging" the ski which is a very piste orientated, but doesn't work in the powder. One great tip to control the "shooting out" feeling at the end of the turn-consciously stand on the uphill ski (as well as the downhill ski).
3. Keep legs closer together-pretend you have a glove clamped between your knees and want to keep it there. |
Thank you. I've determindley avoided listening to the people that keep just saying "lean back, it'll be fine"! I needed slightly more technical information as knew it was more than just lean back - and most of those saying that were borders!! LOL
Definitely need to get some time with an instructor but won't be for a few weeks yet 
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You know it makes sense.
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@Perty,
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Balance-don't lean back
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Totally.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Yeah definitely leaning back is a bad thing, but probably the most common error. For what it's worth I know some guides who are also L4 instructors who lean back all the time in powder and obviously get away with it. I think that's the hard way to do it, and it looks bad too.
- Don't look down (at your tips) so you won't worry if they're not visible.
- Steeper stuff is easier and is significantly better if you think you may fall (because it's easier to get back upright on a steep slope, and easier to get going again).
- Stuff "on the side of a piste" is good as it has a base, so your standard technique will actually work, just a little slower. That's the easiest way to get better, a bit at a time.
I remember not being able to do this. Sadly I can't remember the transition between the then and now.
I fell over a lot, but eventually I stopped doing that and it now all seems easy. I think one just has to put a few hours into it.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
I can't remember the transition
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@philwig, you gave up and started boarding? (Sorry, couldn't resist).
On the guides/L4s leaning back, I think this may just be an optical illusion.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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If still struggling - hire something wider for a day, if the conditions are right. It makes learning easier. The shop should advise.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| under a new name wrote: |
..@philwig, you gave up and started boarding? (Sorry, couldn't resist).
On the guides/L4s leaning back, I think this may just be an optical illusion. |
Ha ha. Nah, I was riding the deep before snowboards were contenders. Once Craig showed the way, I followed quickly.
It may be, but their colleagues suggest otherwise. Interestingly (to me) I don't know any decent
snowboarders who do that, so it's a "tree-trunk legged skier" thing only. Not a habit you want to get into, of course.
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As others have said, the key is using both skis like a single platform. So weighting them much more evenly than you would if you were skiing on piste. For some people, that means legs and feet closer together. I'm less of a fan of that as it causes me the same problems that feet closer together does on piste. The inside leg blocks the outside leg. I'd be aiming for the same shoulder width stance that I have on piste. But I there's more than one way to do things and you will want to find something that works for you.
Regarding balance, I like to bounce twice by flexing the knees as I set off. That settles my forward and aft balance and helps me get my hips and shoulders nicely aligned over my feet.
A bit of speed is also no bad thing. If it isn't too steep then I will often start off straight down the fall line. This accomplishes two things. First, it is easier to make half a turn to start than to make a full turn out of a traverse. Second, with a bit of speed, the skis will plane up. Once the skis are planing, it is easier to initiate the turn. Note, I said "a bit of speed" I don't mean pin it, just enough to get yourself floating. Last, you want to make definite but slightly gradual movements - rapid changes of weight/direction with thinner skis will result in you taking a header.
When you graduate to fatter skis with rocker then you can sling most of that out of the window. The bigger the platform on a single ski and the faster you are going, the more you can use piste like technique. Similarly, all the stuff about "not surprising the ski" just isn't relevant as you can pivot the skis sideways.
Finally, I'm definitely not an instructor. This is more stuff I have picked up along the way.
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| gorilla wrote: |
Regarding balance, I like to bounce twice by flexing the knees as I set off. That settles my forward and aft balance and helps me get my hips and shoulders nicely aligned over my feet. |
It also has the advantage of "programming" the brain (and engraining the feel), that 2 skis are involved, working together and with more equal weight.
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| Old Fartbag wrote: |
| If still struggling - hire something wider for a day, if the conditions are right. It makes learning easier. The shop should advise. |
I might get the chance to try something wider in a couple of weeks, but they don't have touring bindings on so would have carry them up  Unless it's a powder day and I can be first on the route that means I can get a bus back up!! LOL Have to see what happens I guess
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Come back and tell us how you get on.
Embrace the fact that it's all easier than when learning on straight skis, that were 2m long and had a waist in the early 60s. 
You will probably learn as much in a couple of weeks - as I took years to learn, going once a year and hoping the conditions were right.....and I am still not a wonderful Off Piste skier.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Mon 15-02-21 20:47; edited 2 times in total
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| gorilla wrote: |
As others have said, the key is using both skis like a single platform. So weighting them much more evenly than you would if you were skiing on piste. For some people, that means legs and feet closer together. I'm less of a fan of that as it causes me the same problems that feet closer together does on piste. The inside leg blocks the outside leg. I'd be aiming for the same shoulder width stance that I have on piste. But I there's more than one way to do things and you will want to find something that works for you.
Regarding balance, I like to bounce twice by flexing the knees as I set off. That settles my forward and aft balance and helps me get my hips and shoulders nicely aligned over my feet.
A bit of speed is also no bad thing. If it isn't too steep then I will often start off straight down the fall line. This accomplishes two things. First, it is easier to make half a turn to start than to make a full turn out of a traverse. Second, with a bit of speed, the skis will plane up. Once the skis are planing, it is easier to initiate the turn. Note, I said "a bit of speed" I don't mean pin it, just enough to get yourself floating. Last, you want to make definite but slightly gradual movements - rapid changes of weight/direction with thinner skis will result in you taking a header.
When you graduate to fatter skis with rocker then you can sling most of that out of the window. The bigger the platform on a single ski and the faster you are going, the more you can use piste like technique. Similarly, all the stuff about "not surprising the ski" just isn't relevant as you can pivot the skis sideways.
Finally, I'm definitely not an instructor. This is more stuff I have picked up along the way. |
Totally appreciate the comments as sometimes it's good to hear that something different works for other people!
I'm really hoping that I can work out a way to try the fatter skis - not sure the shops will have any with touring bindings but might ask after the holidays. But if I can find a way to try the ones a friend has out here, it will be interesting
Someone I know well said he couldn't get on with skis in powder until he tried fat/powder skis then he loved it. So I appreciate that might be the case for me. . But, despite my fear and meltdown the other day, I was quite impressed at what I'd remembered from some of the 'non' lean back people over the years and that I didnt' fall!!
I'm gonna have to make a list of all the advice here and see what works!! 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Old Fartbag wrote: |
Skis with a reverse camber are like springboards - and the secret is tapping into this springiness for rebound energy, to help turn. |
This is poorly explained.
"Normal" skis have a Camber, or an upwards arch. When weight is applied, it pushes the ski into a reverse camber which stores energy. When this energy is released, it acts like a springboard, springing you up and allowing a direction change.
The Front Rocker, or early rise at the front of the ski, helps bring the tips to the surface and stop them sinking.
A Tail Rocker is less important than the Front Rocker - Off Piste it makes the skis a bit more manoeuvrable. I'm not so convinced about their use On Piste, though they can make "smearing" easier (can help in Bumps) and makes the release of the turn easier.
A ski with a Reverse Camber is simply the opposite of a Cambered ski (looks like the ski is smiling at you). It has very little effective edge, which makes it very forgiving Off Piste, but a nightmare On Piste.
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Ski width for powder should be proportionate to your size and weight. Ski shape and even mount position play a difference on how they handle in 3D snow. A lot of the erroneous "lean back" advice is offered in the context of getting the tips to rise higher and plane in the snow. Alternate and better fixes for this are speed, a more "freeride" mount* or a tip profile which rises more naturally like a massive shark nose or a material tip rocker.
Some of the problems in skiing powder next to the piste are - it might be fairly cruddy, the gradient might not be very high or you are expecting it to be give similar feedback to the piste you have just come off. I've skied red/black slopes in deep wet powder that were pretty hard to keep up momentum on and basically had to be straightlined to get down.
* Although care should be taken with this as some skis are a lot more fun with a progressive mount rather than the SAGA mount preferred by the likes of @midgetbiker
Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much  on Tue 16-02-21 16:30; edited 1 time in total
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You know it makes sense.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| Some of the problems in skiing powder next to the piste are - it might be fairly cruddy |
This was a big one for me, I started to click with powder once I was skiing in something fresh rather than stuff which had been tracked out. Also I had to increase my DIN a bit because I kept clicking out, once I got that dialed and my feet closer together I became a lot happier. Still wouldn't say I'm particularly good off piste, but I'll have a crack and enjoy it bigly.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@chaletgirl, Probably the hardest but most effective fix will be for you to overcome your fear of doing yourself serious damage. I am not questioning or dismissing the tips and advice posted above but unless you can get rid of this particular monkey you are always going to be holding back on skis and if you are scared on skis it will not end well. Good luck with it though. I had an ice monkey for years.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Snowsartre wrote: |
| @chaletgirl, Probably the hardest but most effective fix will be for you to overcome your fear of doing yourself serious damage. I am not questioning or dismissing the tips and advice posted above but unless you can get rid of this particular monkey you are always going to be holding back on skis and if you are scared on skis it will not end well. Good luck with it though. I had an ice monkey for years. |
This.
It is so important to be relaxed - fear/worry/anxiety/whatever causes tension which causes poor skiing.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I have been trying to learn how to ski powder for many years. I know I must keep my skis together and evenly weighted. Because I was taught always to keep the weight on the downhill (outside) ski, this ski is automatically weighted, so when skiing powder I think just about weighting the uphill (inside ski). This seems to work well for me.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Jehu wrote: |
| I have been trying to learn how to ski powder for many years. I know I must keep my skis together and evenly weighted. Because I was taught always to keep the weight on the downhill (outside) ski, this ski is automatically weighted, so when skiing powder I think just about weighting the uphill (inside ski). This seems to work well for me. |
Two other things that may help:
a) Gorilla's suggestion of bouncing a few times before starting, with the weight is on both skis, helps set a pattern where that two footed action can be continued.
b) Banking/Inclination at the start of the turn helps with getting more weight on the inside ski.
Like you, stopping the automatic weighting of the inside ski was also an issue for me.
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I have a one-ski-quiver of sub 70mm piste skis. I did one hire some fat skis (although it was nearly twenty years ago and I was still on straight ones so they were probably around 90mm but felt enormous!) and they made the job of skiing Grand Montets after a good dump much easier..….
I generally have a narrow stance and find that speed is definitely the main thing which helps me in powder. I try to have as few things to concentrate on as possible when skiing and keeping my speed up in powder is my main focus. It makes turning and staying afloat much easier. You will also find that you go quite slowly in powder as there is resistance from the snow, so pointing more downhill than you normally would on a particular pitch is very much a thing.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Klamm Franzer wrote: |
I have a one-ski-quiver of sub 70mm piste skis. I did one hire some fat skis (although it was nearly twenty years ago and I was still on straight ones so they were probably around 90mm but felt enormous!) and they made the job of skiing Grand Montets after a good dump much easier..….
I generally have a narrow stance and find that speed is definitely the main thing which helps me in powder. I try to have as few things to concentrate on as possible when skiing and keeping my speed up in powder is my main focus. It makes turning and staying afloat much easier. You will also find that you go quite slowly in powder as there is resistance from the snow, so pointing more downhill than you normally would on a particular pitch is very much a thing. |
Like you, I always had a narrow one ski quiver - and distinctly remember hiring some Salomon Lord on the last day, after/during a dump of snow (which was that horrible consistency that sticks to your goggles). These days, the Lord would be considered fairly narrow, but then I found for the first hour, they ran away with me, as I wasn't used to something that had such a big a surface area, giving less friction. After that, I found it made tricky conditions so much easier. It was the first time I'd experienced a Front Rocker.
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