Been doing some pivot slip drills and noticed something I haven't really noticed before. I cannot get my hips to move more than 45deg from my feet. I.e. if my feet are perpendicular to the slop sideslipping, I can't get my hips closer to facing down the fall line than 45deg.When taught upper-lower body seperation, I've always been instructed to keep my hips as part of my upper body, facing down the slope and not turning with my skis/legs. I'm told that perfect pivot slips are done without hip movement, just leg rotation. Am I naturally limited in my femur rotation ROM more than others, am I missing something technique wise, or what? Thanks in advance for the help.
Thanks, it seems that increasing that rotational ability is just a matter of practice, based on the video.
Quote:
Why do you want to do pivot slips ? What are you trying to change in your skiing ?
As a race coach, I wouldn't agree with any of what you seem to have been taught, or with the Warren Smith stuff.
Reason for pivot slips: improve edge control, steering, and upper body separation. I've been having some difficulties with powder, crud, moguls and incorporating more steering into my skiing would help, I think. What specifically do you disagree with? I'm totally open to different opinions, some details would be great.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@benjaminh, If this is something you wish to pursue, then freeing out your hips - mobility training/myofascial release and stretching out the piriformis will be needed. Maybe advice from a good physio would guide you through what should be done.
Even if instruction has moved away from this direction (although I see it as part of a skier's "Tool Box", as I don't know any other method of skiing slowly, in full control, down a narrow, very steep pitch, where falling isn't a good option) - freeing out your hips (and Quads/Hamstrings/IT Band/Calves/Achilles etc) is always a good idea.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Sun 17-01-21 20:46; edited 4 times in total
I cannot get my hips to move more than 45deg from my feet.
I wouldn’t have thought that was unusual, TBH.
I certainly can’t get beyond 45deg with a golfclub in hand - maybe that’s why I’m not a very good golfer?
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Red Leon wrote:
benjaminh wrote:
I cannot get my hips to move more than 45deg from my feet.
I wouldn’t have thought that was unusual, TBH.
I certainly can’t get beyond 45deg with a golfclub in hand - maybe that’s why I’m not a very good golfer?
As somebody who has had a lower back spinal fusion - it is essential that I do regular top to bottom work, to keep as free as possible - this means lots of stretching/rolling around on a tennis ball and the use of a Trigger Point roller.
Anyone who has led an active life over many years and never seen a Physical Therapist, or done consistent work to keep "freed up", will have serious scar tissue on their muscles - and getting that sorted is very painful.
After all it is free
After all it is free
When I attended the WSSA, the first evening was a leg/foot rotation angle check, just as the link shows.
I've been increasing my leg rotation over the years and a high speed straight side slip down any slope with skis across fall line and upper body facing down fall line is A) great fun and B) a technique is very useful in tight spots. And another really good tool in the box.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Quote:
high speed straight side slip down any slope with skis across fall line and upper body facing down fall line
My son - a very good skier - once shared a tiny flat in Val d'Isere with one of the very highly qualified British instructors. He used to go out with the instructors on their day off sometimes (and felt like a total beginner). He said they used exactly that technique down a horribly narrow, steep and icy slope, waiting for a softer bit of snow to present itself. He had his heart in his mouth, but launched himself off and survived.
There are plenty of youtube videos on how to improve hip mobility - but spinal mobility/twisting is also important - I can't imagine many people could get their pelvis at 90 degrees to their lower legs, but you should be able to get shoulders at 90 degrees if you work on it. Need to keep at it, though, if you are to retain that flexibility as you get older.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
@pam w, He said they used exactly that technique down a horribly narrow, steep and icy slope,....
Yes, as I have done with guides. Also with ski poles as brakes out behind. One hand holding grips, other hand 1/3 way to push down and apply braking pressure.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
pam w wrote:
There are plenty of youtube videos on how to improve hip mobility - but spinal mobility/twisting is also important - I can't imagine many people could get their pelvis at 90 degrees to their lower legs, but you should be able to get shoulders at 90 degrees if you work on it. Need to keep at it, though, if you are to retain that flexibility as you get older.
Standard race technique is to keep the pelvis square to the skis, upper/lower body separation happens at the waist.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
rjs wrote:
pam w wrote:
There are plenty of youtube videos on how to improve hip mobility - but spinal mobility/twisting is also important - I can't imagine many people could get their pelvis at 90 degrees to their lower legs, but you should be able to get shoulders at 90 degrees if you work on it. Need to keep at it, though, if you are to retain that flexibility as you get older.
Standard race technique is to keep the pelvis square to the skis, upper/lower body separation happens at the waist.
TBF. As a race coach, your job is to get your students to go as fast and efficiently as possible, while staying in control - Pivot Slips, short swings and jump turns wouldn't exactly help matters.
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Sun 17-01-21 20:18; edited 1 time in total
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
In the WSS video linked above, when I watch in slo-mo, it looks like this:
- In 'Braquage' at 1:06, to my eyes, he does get the skis square to the fall line OK, but his jacket zipper, shoulders and hips, all say that his pelvis doesn't stay facing directly down the fall line - they all rotate, and in the case of his hips, quite a lot;
- In his 'Power Punch' exercise (I ask you) at 1:16, to my eyes his body does move down the fall line, his arms are flailing to keep his shoulders square which presumably is intended to impress; he tries hard to keep his hips more square but fails even then, and the angles of his skis say he never manages to get them square to the fall line.
If, after WS had chosen the best of several takes he no doubt had, this is the best he can do to illustrate what he describes on his website and on the soundtrack, I think we are being misled. Surely he fails.
BTW, I think see the same things happening in other WSS videos where he side-slips / braquages too.
I don't see how Yoga-'industry'-like instructional videos that exaggerate even what kinds of contortions may be possible for more mobile and flexible people, can help most normal people to ski?
I personally strongly dislike getting near the end of my movement range when making manoeuvres, since then, I'm then very vulnerable to getting injured one way or another. Also I was well advised on this by a very good ski instructor early on.
It's true my mobility needs to improve, and I'm working on that too, but I've no intention of aiming for 90 degrees. Ever.
For comparison here's a CSIA video showing something more human, in which shoulders and pelvis do rotate:
Postscript.
On a historical note which I expect some SHs won't like, G Joubert, who first described braquage and had it named after him, wrote a book 'Skiing, an Art, a Technique' which I have in front of me. On pages 302-303, he clearly describes the braquage movement, and states that it involves two phases. The first phase is one of foot-steering, where the upper body which includes the pelvis does not rotate, but the legs and skis do, and a second phase which he describes as 'passive pivoting', in which the skis continue to rotate across the hill and the entire body follows the skis. Seems good to me, and it's what I see in the CSIA video. Also, what we generally now call a 'hockey stop', Joubert calls a 'braquage stop', which seems to me to be a quite appropriate description and a big clue on how to achieve it. Doesn't the braquage turn look to be little more than a series of 'hockey stops' smoothly linked, without actually stopping?
I think the braquage (or pivot-slip), although it certainly needs competent rotational movements, to my mind is not strictly a drill: it's more a technique that's really useful to have available in difficult circumstances.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Fat George wrote:
Also, what we generally now call a 'hockey stop', Joubert calls a 'braquage stop', which seems to me to be a quite appropriate description and a big clue on how to achieve it. Doesn't the braquage turn look to be little more than a series of smoothly linked hockey stops?
I sometimes ask people to do 'slow-motion hockey stops' but without coming to a complete stop.
The Joubert 'Un art...' book was well ahead of its time.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
^ I think it's still ahead of its time based on the evidence of this thread. (Mostly. Got my edit above in while you were typing.)
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Sun 17-01-21 20:38; edited 2 times in total
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Interesting reply @Fat George, will get on my laptop and view those videos
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
A little known fact is that Wassa developed his legendary hip flexibility by long sessions of the hokey-cokey in the Farinet lounge with pals Big LOL Dallaglio and Susanna Reid.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I hear he can touch his knees together behind his back.
Useful for skiing out of tight spots without the faff of turning the body.
I personally strongly dislike getting near the end of my movement range when making manoeuvres, since then, I'm then very vulnerable to getting injured one way or another. Also I was well advised on this by a very good ski instructor early on.
There are plenty of youtube videos on how to improve hip mobility - but spinal mobility/twisting is also important - I can't imagine many people could get their pelvis at 90 degrees to their lower legs, but you should be able to get shoulders at 90 degrees if you work on it. Need to keep at it, though, if you are to retain that flexibility as you get older.
Standard race technique is to keep the pelvis square to the skis, upper/lower body separation happens at the waist.
RJS I agree fully and unfortunately promoting hip counter has become commonplace within IASI. After working hard on my mobility I can get the the skis to pretty much 90 deg without moving my pelvis when demoing standing still but as per the CSIA video that doesn't happen when you are sliding on slippery snow and some hip rotation is normal.
Braquage is a useful drill to promote lower body separation but I tell students to keep your pelvis square to the skis for as long as you can with the separation coming from the waist.
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Poster: A snowHead
