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Schengen 90/180 rule being enforced for Brits at Geneva

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Heads-up. Post Brexit rules appear to be being enforced at GVA. Friends who returned to the U.K. a couple of days ago report being asked how long they had been in CH when they went through passport control. Although the authorities have no way of actually knowing when an individual entered the Schengen area, they are assuming (for Brits) that the permitted 90 day period began on 1st January. If you've been in Schengen longer than 90 days and are returning to the U.K. you might want to get you paperwork (from whichever country you live in) in order.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
If the 'days counting' begins 1st Jan, then it's impossible to be outside the rules, surely, as of right now?
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
French border staff are stamping passports. Including wrongly for Brits with french residency.
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@Claude B, I think I want to collect stamps, as an ironic protest Twisted Evil
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Ahhh... getting nostalgic now for my old passport with stamps in it: East Germany, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia. All gone now as countries. Will I now get a United Kingdom stamp? Oh dear hope that doesn't mean ...


Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Sat 27-03-21 15:21; edited 1 time in total
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@Claude B, OH's was stamped at Nice couple of weekends ago, I did warn her about it and she tried to debate the issue with the Douane but was told would not be an issue once you have residency.

Evidently an article in the Times today, no doubt the medja will be full of it over the next week or so.
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
bobski62 wrote:
Ahhh... getting nostalgic now for my old passport with stamps in it: East Germany, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia. All gone now as countries. Will I now get a United Kingdom stamp? Oh dear hope that doesn't mean ...



Whoops! Au revoir, UK...

Anyway, Salmond's got Abba back together again, rejoice!!
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@telford_mike, are we supposed to declare ourselves at the border when we go into france/ Italy etc now from
CH?
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@Weathercam, yes and no. Although she'll have unlimited time in France the clock will have started on the 90/180 in other Schengen countries.

Another friend who spends a lot of time here is pleased that his summer bolthole, Croatia, isn't in Schengen. So he should get 90/180 there and 90/180 here. Probably less than he'd ideally want in either though.
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@Nadenoodlee, not sure to be honest, but I doubt it as CH and Italy / France are all still Schengen so there should be free movement (subject to Covid border controls obviously).
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Not for British french residents. We get unlimited in France obviously but are subject to 90/180 in other Schengen countries.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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bug, hadn't considered the Italian implications. My passport was (wrongly) stamped when I drove back to France in January. And I had my attestation proving my application for residency was underway.
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Not sure how it will work once in France for example. 18 months or so ago I flew from Marseille to Krakow for a long weekend. Didn't have to show my passport at all. Or go through any channel from memory, EU or otherwise.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
This 90/180 calculator looks OK for me...
https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/visa-calculator/
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@Claude B, we've crossed regularly from France into Italy at Claviere, and back again. I don't ever recall being stopped in 20+ years, even when France/Italy borders were being checked for migrants.
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@telford_mike, i don’t think i could be arsed stopping at St Gingolph everytime.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Claude B wrote:
French border staff are stamping passports. Including wrongly for Brits with french residency.

All non-EU citizens, with or without with EU residency, get stamped at border. It's in the Schengen border code.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I have seen a webpage from some part of the Italian Government saying that UK passports, resident in Italy, should not be stamped at point of entry. Furthermore, if this does happen, the holder should go to the Questura to have the stamp cancelled! I'll try to find the webpage.
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@andylocity, actually, not if your residence is covered under the WA, if I read this correctly,

UK nationals will be subject to entry conditions of Article 6 SBC – for Withdrawal Agreement (WA) beneficiaries, residence document will replace the verification of the intention to stay and having sufficient means of subsistence
o Thorough checks upon entry and exit including against national and EU databases (Article 8 par 3 SBC)
oStamping of passports upon entry and exit (Article 11 SBC) (not applicable to documented Withdrawal Agreement beneficiaries)
o “ALL PASSPORTS” or “VISA NOT REQUIRED” lanes (also for WA beneficiaries)

from https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/files/brexit_files/info_site/borders_seminar_ppp_final_public.pdf

makes no sense stamping my passport, in theory is could be several years before I re-exit the zone (and I have a "permanent" residency -technically 10 years but automatic renewal ...
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
andylocity wrote:
Claude B wrote:
French border staff are stamping passports. Including wrongly for Brits with french residency.

All non-EU citizens, with or without with EU residency, get stamped at border. It's in the Schengen border code.



But, as said above, any British passport holders who have EU residency under the WA should not have their passports stamped. There have been some instances of this, but the various groups in Europe representing the Brits residing in the EU re on to this.
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There has been much confusion at Munich airport over this too. Brits with valid German residence permits (the full ones give "freedom of movement" I believe) are complaining that the German immigration officers are insisting on stamping passports despite the individuals having the relevant id document with them. Given that so few folk are travelling at the moment (except for the Germans off to Mallorca Very Happy ) it is difficult to know whether this is "teething trouble" or something else.
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May I ask, what is the problem with having your passport stamped on entry? Surely, if you have a residence permit you have indefinite permission to remain? Does the stamp imply an obligation to leave?
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@telford_mike, As I understand it, the problem (as @timlongs, identified above), is that the 90/180 meter starts running if you're stamped in to Schengen, even if you have the right to stay indefinitely in one of its member states. Then if you travel to another member state (where you're now a tourist) many months later, suddenly you get keel-hauled for overstaying! Ahhh, the joys of taking back control.... rolling eyes
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@shep, the link above (if you read thru it, and assuming nothing changed as it seems somewhat of a discussion document) is quite clear that WA residents don't need to get stamped as it's meaningless - and, importantly that they effectively have free movement across Schengen. So any stamps would be meaningless. Entry requirements (income, etc.) are also waived/subsumed.

The only lack of clarity is over e-gates at airports as currently, that's a no, but in 2022 there are two new systems - EES and ETIAS - after which it's a yes, exept that EES doesn't apply, so it might still be a no. Pretty surely no EU passport gates though. Barstewards (the UK I mean).
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What needs to happen is that the 90/180 meter is paused when you enter your EU state of residence, and re-started when you leave it. This needs to happen automatically when your pp is scanned (so forcing us to stop and find somebody who can and is willing to scan our passports at every drive-through border, every time). It's a big mess; and before anyone blames the continentals, they didn't ask for this fiasco, and now have to find the resources to resolve it.
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@shep, actually, I think not. Anticipating the impossibility of managing that, from that link (again) the 90/180 day rule doesn't apply to cartes issued under the WA. Unless I've read that wrong - it was the clearest text I could (quickly) find.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
The potential issue with having your passport stamped is if you are someone with residence in one particular EU but that particular type of "residence permit" only gives "rights" to the state where you reside (it varies from country to country). If say you have that residence in Germany, you arrive in Munich and get your passport stamped. Seven months later you fly to New York from Brussels. Going by the stamp in your passport you have overstayed you visa free time and potentially can get added to the Schengen "bad list". Yes it probably can be resolved easily enough but it just adds unnecessary grief, once these things get added to immigration databases they can be very difficult to remove.
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@under a new name, not sure you are correct about the free movement thing. I have been told (it doesnt affect me personally so might not have the detail correct here) that those UK citizens who qualify here in Germany for a permanent residency permit (usually after 5 years) do have FoM but those with the one that needs to be renewed dont. I guess if you were resident prior to 31.12.20 you would qualify for the permanent one but not sure. When this issue has been discussed in relation to Austria the locals there seem believe they would loose FoM as that did not go with the Austrian residence permit. In practical terms most of the time it is not really relevant as there is no record of folk travelling around except when they transit in or out of Schengen, the bigger issue is employment.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@munich_irish, hence why you shouldn't be getting stamped.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
In France I think any residency for UK citizens only allows 90/180 to other Schengen countries. With a 5 year Carte de Sejour for those in France under 5 years you are only allowed 6 months out of France annually. With a 10 year one for those here more than 5 you're allowed up to 5 years out of France. I guess citizenship gives full FoM rights.
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Not just France. Residency of any EU country only gives you residency and work permit etc for that country. 90 in 180 for all the others in Schengen still applies.
Unless of course you change citizenship, in which case you are then EU citizen (and no longer UK citizen, unless that country allows dual citizenship).

If a leaver gets told to leave, then I have the square root of eff all sympathy.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@andy, I could well be and reading again, yes, it is still confusing me, however,

Specific issues for beneficiaries of the Withdrawal Agreement (1)
Passport should not be stamped if proof is shown that UK national is beneficiary of the WA
• Residence document under the WA,
• For MS with constitutive WA implementation schemes: Certificate of application for the new
WA residence status,
• Alternative evidence where the above two documents are not available, such as residence document under the previous free movement regime (Directive 2004/38/EC)
If doubt → passport should be stamped Not subject to EES or ETIAS
• For third country family members the new WA residence document has visa exempting effect in other Schengen Member States (Schengen rules)

?? If no stamping, then surely no ability to easily enforce 90/180 rule?
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
FoM ended for Brits when we left the EU. Getting residency under the WA for the member state in which the Brit resides only entitles them to live/work in that member state, if they want to move to another member state, they would be treated as a 3CN, and travel outside their home member state within the Schengen is as per any other British passport holder, so 90 in 180. Not sure what is/isn't in place for any frontier workers, but the first bit was mentioned quite a bit at the various talks for British passport holders living in the EU from what I understand (certainly was at one I attended).
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@Sitter, that was my working belief, but if there's no (easily accessible) mechanism for tracking my movements (and leaving aside wrinkles like working) then functionally 90/180 can't readily be applied, and it defo doesn't look like I need to worry bout acquiring a Shengen visa.

It's really not terribly clear ...
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@Sitter,
Quote:

FoM ended for Brits when we left the EU. Getting residency under the WA for the member state in which the Brit resides only entitles them to live/work in that member state, if they want to move to another member state, they would be treated as a 3CN, and travel outside their home member state within the Schengen is as per any other British passport holder, so 90 in 180.

This is my belief - but as @under a new name, says, there does not seem to be mechanism for operating those rules - which is strange as while it is new to UK passport holders it is the long standing position for others such as US passport holders. Is it just that Schengen countries have never got thier act together to enforce this?
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@Sitter, I might be wrong about this, basically conversations with Brits in pubs (when such things were possible....) but I understood that Brits with permanent German residency have much the same entitlements as EU citizens, though employment clearly only relates to Germany. I know that is not the case in Austria. I know from other non EEA citizens who have got permanent residency here that no issue with 90 days out of 180 etc.
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@under a new name, that's the whole point of Schengen there are no checks on where you travel to & from. The issue would only arise if "something happens", car accident, ski accident or similar. Then someone will want to know who you are and what you were doing. If you are simply on a short visit to say Italy, no issue at all but if you decide to move to the Algarve for the winter, dont register and then get caught speeding six months later that might be different. If you live in France, have French health insurance, pay French tax etc the reality is it is very unlikely you would ever have an issue unless you were doing something dodgy. Also note that, Freedom of Movement is not absolute, some countries, such as Austria, are much stricter than applying the rules than others.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
https://www.bmi.bund.de/SharedDocs/faqs/EN/topics/constitution/brexit/faqs-brexit.html

Quote:

What can I do with the document?
You can use the document to prove that you are residing in Germany legally and that you are allowed to work in Germany. For example, this allows you to switch from employment to self-employed economic activity or vice versa without having to notify or obtain permission from the foreigners authority.
...
In combination with your valid passport, the document also allows you to enter and exit other Schengen states and to reside there for up to 90 days within a 180-day period without any other authorisation. However, the document does not allow you to move to or work in other Schengen states.


I read that as "much the same as any EU citizen when in Germany" but "much the same as anyone with a Schengen entry visa in any other Schengen area country" (ie 90/180, no work, but allowed to go on business trips conferences, etc. as well as holiday)

How they actually police it, we will find out. eg 90% of my entry/exit for Germany is at either Calais or IJmuiden, and most trips via Frankfurt are within Schengen (to travel to our other sites at which I'm now no longer allowed to work, but can only go for meetings). Although technically 2 of those sites are also international territory, so maybe that would be allowed anyway.
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andy wrote:


How they actually police it, we will find out. eg 90% of my entry/exit for Germany is at either Calais or IJmuiden, and most trips via Frankfurt are within Schengen (to travel to our other sites at which I'm now no longer allowed to work, but can only go for meetings). Although technically 2 of those sites are also international territory, so maybe that would be allowed anyway.


FFS what a shower of shite, I'd never considered that Evil or Very Mad
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munich_irish wrote:
@Sitter, I might be wrong about this, basically conversations with Brits in pubs (when such things were possible....) but I understood that Brits with permanent German residency have much the same entitlements as EU citizens, though employment clearly only relates to Germany. I know that is not the case in Austria. I know from other non EEA citizens who have got permanent residency here that no issue with 90 days out of 180 etc.


Could be that those Brits weren't fully aware of it? FoM still existed during the transition period, but that disappeared at the end of last year. Quick google brings this up: https://www.bmi.bund.de/SharedDocs/faqs/EN/topics/constitution/brexit/faqs-brexit.html;jsessionid=D1C37E6C158C84959E03BD27EA43B15D.1_cid295#doc15091950bodyText4 so fits in with what I know is the case for other EU states I know people in (Spain, France, Austria)

Realistically though, it will be fairly difficult, if not impossible, to police Brits resident in an EU state visiting others. There might be some way of tracing things through, for example, registration when staying in guest accommodation, but that information won't be widespread. The not getting a passport stamp for those resident in the EU will be important to save them the hassle of getting challenged when they, for example, make a trip back to the UK to go on holiday to somewhere outside of the Schengen area.
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